SwampHeart

3 Keepers just doesn't leave you enough points to spend on quality units afterwards - you're talking about 1080 points in monsters, plus the cost of Sybarites if you go that direction. By the time you've got your keepers (and you'll likely still want an epitome) you just don't have enough units to take advantage of all that CP. Ultimately units tend to be more substantive and less swing-y than behemoths (more dice results in less deviation from expected outcomes). I've played two keeper lists and still find myself lacking the remaining tools I want on the table.

A bit of discussion - inspired by @CB42's list. Obviously the conventional wisdom right now is to stack characters for DP generation. However I wonder if that doesn't lead to too much focus on summoning and thus begins to ignore the combat and speed strength of the list? I've also been looking at my lists and I wonder if I haven't given up too many bodies to stack characters as well.

I mean no good BoC player doesn't own 30 Gors regardless - you just kind of end up with them over time. I don't recall ever buying any but they seem to show up in my boxes somehow.

You would -Do D6 MWs via the SoJ's usual ability and then -Roll an additional die for a chance at a 2nd wound (following normal rules, to wound, save, etc.)

There's no meaningful role that Gors fill that isn't better filled by Centigors (literally just better Gors, at least with the GHB there is a 10 point difference between the 2 units), by Bestigors (who's offensive output is tremendous), or by Ungors who are cheaper for the same job. Gors are an OK unit who's job is done better by 3 other choices. Ungors are better as road blocks, chaff, and distraction because they're cheaper. You don't buy 10 Gors with the intent for them to do anything that isn't positioning based anyway so why spend an extra 10 points when both units can do the same things as far table space, chaff, screening etc. The only time Gors exceed Ungors is when both units are purchased 20 models which is effectively a unit size you'd never buy - you either buy maximum size units or minimum sized units. With the GHB point changes 10 Gors are probably a viable unit, especially when you've got 10-20 points floating around in a list and can afford to upgrade 2 units of 10 Ungors to 2 units of 10 Gors. But from an initial purchase stand point I'd still start with Ungors. 40 Bodies is a more viable screen/tarpit and I'd rather pay 60 points to fill my minimum battle line/chaff roles than 70 since both will accomplish the same thing over the course of the game. There's also probably something to be said that I don't expect almost any BoC unit that isn't Bestigors, Tzaangor Enlightened, or Raiders to do any damage that is worth discussing across the course of a game. So even if Gors are marginally better at fighting than Ungors for me that fits neatly into the 'who cares' section of my brain. None of our units are durable enough to grind anything so the goal has to be to go all punch all the time.

Ungors don't die at a meaningfully greater rate when comparing 40 bodies to 30, additionally Gors are only Bravery 5 (i.e. 1 point higher than Ungors at 4). At maximum unit sizes they have an identical bravery of 7 because of the difference in 10 extra bodies.

Which had nothing to do with how good Bestigors were - they were a Special selection rather than Core and the Deathstar nature of 7th and 8th edition WHFB led to effectively a few large units to power up with buffs and then chaff to help dictate the pace of combats. Razgors weren't taken because they were good - they were taken because they were very effective charge blockers, the same reason people used to field harpies in Beasts. I've played BoC since it was a Skirmishing army where Ungors and Gors were in the same units and Ungors died to shooting and you got +2 rank bonus for combat res. instead of +3 with a Beasts. I'm entirely aware of the history of the army and I've played it through its highs and lows. Gors are worse than Ungors however they're not so much worse that they're unusable, they're just a subpar choice. If the only thing you care about is winning sure you'll only ever take Ungors but if Gors are the iconic unit that people demand to use then you can clearly make them work, you're just playing slightly down from where you'd be with Ungors instead.

Debatable at best - Ungors and Bestigors are both iconic Beasts of Chaos units right alongside Gors.

I've heard conflicting reviews - I personally haven't watched an actual review yet.

That's it and that's the whole idea is it doesn't actually look amazing. However he generates 7+d3 primordial call points in the first turn which opens up a ton of summoning options. Additionally he has two great chaff units in Ungors, a great screen/tarpit in the big Ungor unit and great hammers in the Enlightened. Its a one drop list which lets him set the pace of the game and is generally efficient at playing most scenarios. I've personally talked bad about Allherd before (and I think you could take this list and do better with no Great Fray or Gavespawn still) but this is a good example of building for it and playing around it.

The book is tremendous - unfortunately many BoC players would rather whine about what's not there than focus on where the army falls in the overall scope of play. Much like every other book in the game there are very strong options and then options that don't hold up - BoC isn't unique in this, its the same game every other army plays. The benefit is our strong options are very competitive - we have access to most of the tools needed to be successful in AoS and there are results from it. In addition to the CanCon and masters lists Rick Myhill did well with BoC at BOBO. On the whole I can't recommend BoC enough, its a great book with enough tools for you to build the kit you want. Ignore the BoC whinerbase.

Had to check this hadn't been addressed. GW is saying Gors are now comparable to Ungors - not Ungor Raiders. Raiders have bows, Ungors have melee weapons, Raiders are not battle line, Ungors are. Currently (and even after the points drop) Ungors are the better battle line selection. Furthermore Ungor Raiders are one of the best units available to BoC thanks to the Desolating Beastherd battalion.

If this actually happened on a consistent basis I would agree with you. However this is how 40k handles its points and it still fails to use this as an adjustment dial to balance the game. Granular points are bad for games designed to be played on a large scale such as AoS and 40k. Edit - k n o b somehow gets caught by the profanity filter.

Looks like a fun way to play - probably won't become my default (mainly because I don't think it'll replace 2k as the tournament standard). But it is a nice way to get more games in on a Thursday night game night. I also expect to see lots of Friday before the main event Meeting Engagement tournaments as well. From a balance stand point its already no better than what exists in AoS right now (Morathi isn't a behemoth for example).

Couldn't agree more - I have seen exactly 0 games of PL being played in my area, even when the local GW tries to push PL games. Its a system that entirely relies on both players to not try to game it because as soon as one does it goes down in flames. I also can't stand 40k's points granularity, on the surface it seemed like a great idea because it gave GW a ton of nobs to fine tune. However in practice it leads to many many many lists being wrong (because of where and how points are listed). Additionally I've seen a great deal of new players fail to just understand they need to pay for the gun a model has in addition to paying for the model. Its a needlessly complex system that hasn't generated any great value in the terms of competitive balance.

How?

Mine's a mishmash right now, I own a full BoC army painted like regular BoC (so lots of browns, grays, etc). However I've got a new collection of BoC specifically for my HoS that I'll be doing up with the new Contrast line so I can match my HoS models. @CB42 hit the nail on the head, clubs are better than spears. Spears are theoretically good but the 25mm base effectively cancels out the need for extra range on them. I started building some (more) Seekers this weekend, going to give the big unit of 20 a go sometime and see how they work out for me.

Outside of tournaments I almost never play with a fully painted army. My armies are constantly in flux - trying new builds, trying whole new armies, play testing is a near constant for me. Just because of the way I approach the game I know basically none of my 'regular' games will feature entirely painted armies. I can't imagine spending the time to assemble and paint a unit only to play it and find out I hate the way it functions in the game. All this said I am regularly painting - I of course need to field fully painted armies at tournaments so I'm always working on getting there.

Played with the GW demo set this weekend - overall was a really fun experience (which is saying a lot for me because I genuinely detest painting). I think I prefer the wraithbone to the greyseer for most colors (the warmth looks better with the Contrast paints). I really quickly fell in love with the Talasar Blue - it looks tremendously vibrant, and the Iyaden Yellow was very nice as well. The one thick coat thing is definitely a bit misleading, I got the most consistent results from adding a little medium and making sure I stayed inside the lines. I went in prepared for GW to sell out quickly (by the time US pre-orders rolled around we'd already seen sell outs in the UK) so I pre-ordered a few of the ones I need for my current BoC/HoS project, and I'll pick up a few more from my FLGS. But I guess my hobby doesn't really involve kvetching about GW not having stock on TGA - which I do know is an important part of many people's hobby so different strokes and all.

I think this is a bit overblown. You should probably run 60 Raiders in a Desolating list but you don't have to invest in a Cygor and the Shaman with the +1 to hit artifact is a straight trap option. Raiders do significant damage in the Desolating list because of exploding 6s which makes BoC a bit of a sleeper shooting army and from a competitive stand point adds a major tool to our tool kit.

Yeah I'd literally be looking at taking it specifically for the FS matchup which is the only 'high tier' list I feel like I don't have a solid answer to.

How'd Palisade play out for you? I meant to ask yesterday, I've been thinking of including it in my list to act as a FS stall tactic.

No what I'm basing my opinion off of is actual practical experience. I desperately want Gors to be a good and valid unit, I own 90 of them. However I've also got nearly 70 games in with BoC against a variety of armies and play styles and I can tell you that through sheer volume of playing they're not a viable choice. This is further backed up by most BoC tournament lists, the best finish with BoC using Gors was Joel McGrath at CanCon and he still only has the minimum 10 for Desolating Beastherd. You're being stubborn because you've formed an opinion and don't want to change it. When you dictate the pace of combat with BoC, especially when leveraging the tools available to the book (Movement Bonuses, Taurus, etc.) you're going to swing first with full sized units. The reason you're going to do that is because BoC units absolutely melt under any form of returned attacks. What isn't going to happen is you're going to lose 10 Ungor or 5 Gor, you're going to lose 25 Unngor and 20 Gors at a time. And once you've taken those casualties it doesn't matter how they perform in smaller units because the output from both is so trivial as to be unimportant. You're looking at combats as small multiple damage increments as opposed to one swing and its over - the latter is how AoS works at current. You will have no models left to swing after wyches, GGRs, HBs, etc get their swings through. If you aren't going first at full size with your unit you're basically not swinging at all. I think in a meta where you played lots of MSU style play Gors may be more attractive but in my experience that simply isn't competitive AoS. There are chaff units (which you can sweep with your own chaff without investing more points in) and there are hammers. People just don't run medium size/small units that are expected to be effective. You're more than welcome to try and make Gors work and they may be serviceable for you but at the top end of competitive play Gors are a bad choice. And to be clear your assumption about everything having utility - unfortunately that isn't true at all. Our book has some of the worst internal balance in AoS.

You should be dictating the pace and scope of combats with BoC in most cases. if you aren't you're probably losing already. Enlightened on Disc up by 20 - every other bird is unchanged.

The only time Gors outperform Ungors mathematically is in medium sized units which should never be run. Basically every line infantry unit in BoC should either be run at Minimum or Maximum sizes. Also the big rumor leak says that Bestigors are unchanged in BoC - Gors are getting a bit cheaper (again this all rumor so take it with plenty of salt).