NauticalSoup

I mean if you want to get that technical with the wording, the handgunner ability merely lets you 'receive' the command (a sub-component of using a command ability) - it doesn't actually let you 'use' it, which is the term that actually pulls the trigger and sets off the whole sequence of programmatic logic allowing a command ability to do something in the game. So for the ability to do anything you still need to reference all the command ability core rules that are omitted, which necessarily should include the strict limitation that you can't 'use' Unleash Hell outside of the charge phase. If it was meant to bypass phasing it would indicate as much since CAs were deliberately designed to be phase locked. It's also worth noting that this language is identical to the language on battalion bonuses that say you can receive it without the command being issued without a command point being spent. In fact the literal only thing that separates them is that the handgunner warscroll ability has one additional restriction about when it can be applied, and reading that restriction as suddenly letting you bypass all the other CA mechanics is the sort of thing that instantly breaks a huge swath of the game. Like imagine reading Slayers and saying "Well I've satisfied the condition 'once per battle' so I'm going to use unleash hell out of phase" because it doesn't restate all the core rules telling me I can't. Come on now. Edit: another example of how we KNOW handgunners have to use unleash hell as per the core rules: the identically worded battalion bonuses and similar that net you a freebie don't let you use the command ability more times than the game natively allows in a phase - once. Because even though none of those abilities tell you you're 'using' a command ability, that's exactly what you have to do to benefit from them, and as a result all the restrictions on when you can use any such ability still apply because they weren't mentioned and therefore weren't contradicted. If you really think what you're describing is allowed I encourage you to post it in the rules section and you'll get more explanations probably all saying the same thing.

The condition to use the ability is the same as the condition to use unleash hell normally just slightly truncated probably because they didn't want to reprint the entire rule. It specifically overrides two things, the 'command being issued' and the 'a command point being spent'. The fact that they left off the timing doesn't really entitle you to assume it no longer exists. Just like how all the other rules surrounding command abilities except the two they specifically called out continue to apply.

Wanting to use a specific unit in Stormcast is tough because every role is quadrouple stacked with largely interchangeable units whose main difference is just strict performance on the table. I feel this pain because I want to play sacrosanct, but doing so deliberately just means hamstringing myself in a bunch of dimensions all at the same time and gaining nothing in exchange

I agree. The double turn mostly seems to obfuscate existing problems with the dumpster fire that is Sigmar balance. I play 3 alpha strike armies. How do you think I see so many games ending with an alpha? Turn orders don't fix this problem and it's not a good reason for either alternating or double (although IS an argument for true alternating activations).

It's not mitigating it at all, it's making it much much much worse- in favour of the player going second. You're literally just increasing alpha strike potential of player 2 to greater than 1 had in the first place and saying 'there now it's mitigated'. Mitigated by risk of an EVEN BIGGER alpha strike lol I've watched many, many games end at the top of turn 2 after a double-alpha out of the gate.

Having the first priority roll come in turn 3 is an interesting idea I hadn't heard before. It keeps the uncertainty factor while controlling for the worst aspect of the double, the alpha strike. Might give it a try. We've got some new players coming in and I know they already are skeptical about the double turn mechanic and I sympathize completely because while it doesn't particularly offend me, I just think it's bad game design that adds nothing but chagrin to the Sigmar experience.

Yep if not the two best units in the book it's very close, so as far as build-arounds go that isn't bad at all.

I genuinely forgot what their battle traits did and had to look them up. This actually seems pretty cute - I assume the game plan with the assassins and MSUs is to really take advantage of the battle trait by feeding them into the grinder turn after turn or just forcing the opponent to eat the damage. I would consider playing something like this!

It would be very GW to come after LC for having access to two extremely overtuned units in SCE.

It is not a move. This has been a chief mechanism to deploy these units for a long time. Afaik there is no way to get a melee reroll ones to-hit on a coalition stormcast in living cities.

I've been playing a lot with Ardboyz and I can tell you, saw-toothing helps but as soon as you bring in terrain, adjacent combats and other bottlenecking factors you find getting even 10 guys fighting in a sawtooth is a challenge. And Gutrippas are barely combat effective in blocks of 10 anyway. Positioning 32s to fight with 1" weapons is just a gigantic hassle.

Ah. I misread his original post that he said *fantasy*. I thought the claim was Dominion outsold Indomitus. Kind of a nothing-burger, there are probably only a very few outliers that break the rule of each starter selling better than the previous one just because the business has grown almost continually for so long. Edit: If they aren't padding by saying it outsold the last one by a considerable margin and they still overproduced it to such a degree retailers were selling it half off and you can still find it everywhere... just how many did they think they were going to sell??

I paid full price at my FLGs too. Eh. I'm not mad about it- I would have been salty if I picked it up from GW, but getting FOMO'd is usually your own fault and one ideally learns the lesson... eventually 😛

Well, given production is theoretically matched to demand, that depends on how you define 'extremely well'. If you overproduced so much you can't move it all then it didn't actually meet its sales targets. That could easily be described as 'selling poorly' since they obviously expected it to be a lot more popular than it was. It's like the classic movie that sells a ton of tickets but still resulted in a loss because it cost too much to make. Did it sell well, if it lost you money? Does the answer to that question actually tell you anything meaningful if it can sell 'extremely well' while still being a failure? Overproduced or undersold, it doesn't foreshadow AoS sharing a podium with 40k.

lol are you paraphrasing or did they actually claim this? Everything I've seen in my region suggests Dominion is a shelf-warmer. It took ages for it to even disappear off the GW store. I think AoS players are kinda living in dreamland if they expect the game to ever get the 40k treatment- I strongly suspect even the amount of attention it gets now is disproportionate to the amount of money it makes. Space marines alone probably make more than the entire AoS range.

Seems like it's here to stay regardless of player feedback. Maybe in testing they found removing it exposes too many of the game's serious underlying flaws, so by keeping it everyone can get mad about being double turned since it masks many of the other reasons their play experience is bad.

This is actually, at least in my experience, basically just how sigmar games sub 1k tend to go by default because of the way turns/combat alternations go. Even with two casual lists the warping effect of small points games makes it seem like almost every single one is lost and won in construction. Even at 1k we've found it basically mandatory to ban 300 point plus units to make it feel even semi playable. We're even thinking about restricting reinforcements. It's so easy to just completely roll over the other list if you connect first with your big hammer unit, particularly when casuals are involved (because they don't know how to screen effectively) and it's trivial to shove most of your points into a single activation at the top of combat.

Second @PlasticCraic I would actually advocate very strongly against replacing 1 and 6 both with symbols. If you must replace one of the two, leave it at that so it's totally unambiguous which is which.

It's amazing how basically every game that isn't warhammer seems to die almost overnight after any misstep. Warmahordes and X-wing both died pretty ignominiously in our club, after going toe-to-toe with Warhammer for quite some time.

Yep honestly there's no point to the option even existing. New coherency with a 10 man minimum on 32s... the hand weapons would need INSANELY inflated attack stats to even break even with spears, let alone to ever be superior.

This is the answer to every question on the list. Warhammer is ubiquitous in hobby miniatures, so unless you're into historicals, it's the 'safe' choice. You'll virtually always be able to find players and it isn't going anywhere. Even other big games like Warmachine or X-wing seem to stumble and die after only a few years. Warhammer could be a LOT worse than it is, and I would still be playing it. I know this because it has been much worse, and I kept playing.

Mortals presumably.

All good to know. So Rockguts are effective even without troggoth synergies? Or effective within the context of Gitz at least. What about boingrot bounders?

Know someone who is set on Gloomspite for their first army, especially the night goblin elements. I'm wondering what staple stuff he ought to include, and which ranges he should cut into besides the obvious stabba/shoota blobs.

Realistically very very few Sigmar players play competitive, so 5-0 lists don't represent the sort of pub-stomping junk most people hate facing off against in the club, and really don't have much bearing on the health of the game. That's why you'll see endless complaints about stuff like sentinels, regardless of whether or not they're nominally the best thing in the game. And dragons 100% fall into that category, an army of all dragons is the sort of list that makes casual players quit the hobby. Plus GW has really pushed the all-dragon army, and people like the models, so you're much much more likely to bump into it than you are top table Seraphon or something.