Frowny

I think the problem isn't the double turn but rather the power of choosing who takes first turn and the option of going 2nd. Then you can play for the possibility of the double turn without worrying about having it against you. Also, I find going 2nd often allows you to effectively actually attack something instead of just matching forward and waiting to get punched. I wish they made going first a roll off instead of going to the lowest drops or even making it random all together. Maybe a wins ties for lowest drops instead of the autochoice

I think it wouldn't be too hard to use the bellower arm up by his face and a ton of greenstuff to make a big gout of flame. Just support it with a single pin for structure. I use paperclips. I'm surprised at how many people are using gluttons. They just don't seem that great, but I guess easy access to rr wounds has a lot of value and they are nearly the cheapest bodies in the codex. That being said the lack of rend across the board seems like it could be a problem. I ran 700 points of ogors into 400 points of bonereapers the other day and with the rerollable 3+ save on their basic infa try failed to do more than like 3 wounds... It doesn't surprise me that the list with tactical tools is doing the best though. Screens and objective grabbers win games.

My predictions Seige expansion for AOS spring or summer of next year Gordrrak/destruction vs Stormcast/order. Nagash/death vs. archeon/chaos All have reasons for seige weapons, maybe even in the allpoints all together. Stormcast get a seige chamber opened next year with a big models release to tie in the timing. Excelsis gets a wd supplement for cities of sigmar bug falls to mix things up slightly, goddrak nagash and archeon duke it out, nagash gets a foothold in allpoints near some shyish gate but doesn't get further, ultimately allowing both sides to "win" ok that front.

I think you'd u might be slightly too all in on the gluttons.... I might drop one block to get some more tools. Some frost sabres to area zone deepstikers, some cheaper gnoblars to sit in the backfield and/or a tyrant to bully them into battleshock immunity all might provide more value than that last block, especially since you already have 2 other blocks and the ironguts to get up and bully objectives

Maybe in a yeti list for -2 to hit on several key turns? Or in winterbite for -2 to hit in key shooting phases? He's ok speed due to the hungry thing, which is nice. The 1d6 charge is hard though. A 2/3rds chance of failing a 3 inch charge is a hard pull to swallow.

I think you really need a screen. Anything that can get to you turn 1 will be terrible for this list, denying the charge on all your cavalry and pinning you in. I think you need a screen, either of more frost sabres or 20 gnoblars. I think the skaal is useful for its artifact+ battleline, but you could consider committing more to it, or dropping it entirely for just more frost sabres. Also the 6 gluttons seem a bit out of place here, so maybe drop them. Consider -6 gluttons. +20 gnoblars, + 2x frost sabres as a small unit, +4x frost sabres to the big unit. Or alternatively, if you want a backfield objective camper, consider leadbelchers in small units instead of the gluttons, since they are cheaper and can occasionally contribute without leaving an objective.

I hadn't seen that bit. Still does not make me want to play thundertusks. 320 points is just far too much for 2 prayers and their terrible snowball. I guess I'm more frustrated with the low base output of the warscroll though. It does too little damage against almost every target for a 300 point model. For 300 points in any other army, you could be getting 4 prayers or even 6 prayers that go off on 3's or so, not 2 prayers, and occasionally they'd come with other with other useful buffing features. Looking at a fyreslayers runesmiter (Who is really very similar) for only 240 points makes me sad.

I don't see much love for BCR, but I'm not sure why. I still think mournfangs look promising, although I'm just getting my army together, so don't have any real data to back this up. I'm a little disappointed in our command abilities/buff abilities, especially on the BCR side. RR charges is nearly useless as its already a generic command ability. The Huskard prayers only go off on a 4+, and you can only do 1 per turn. Compare this to most others, where your average 'priest' can pray 2-3 times (hag queen, slaughterpriest). And this is on a 320 point model! I think the Huskard/Stonehorn has potential, but you'd have to build around it, likely with a single unit of 6-8 mournefangs, which is a bit expensive. Thundertusks also seem pretty useless, just not nearly enough ranged output for a 300 point model to justify it on that end. That being said, I think the Yeti's and frost sabres both have legs. More sneaky legs, but they definitely add something that you can't get on the ogors side, and requiring only their built-in support. I think a hunter general + frost sabres will be in a lot of lists to easily fix your battleline, and give you a deep strike threat, which the army otherwise lacks with a bunch of straight-up-the-middle ground pounders.

The great thing about her is that she has 3 casts. So each turn you recast it, shoot some augmented spells and then move around as needed. I think most people find 2 casts at +2 cast stronger than 3 casts at +0, so they use throne of vínes to make that trade-off even when she moves consistently. T1 throne of vínes, Wildwood, spiteswarm give is nice and reliable and sets up future turns well for example. T2 she's now in range so can go throne of vínes again, warscrolls spell, summon another Wildwood! Whenever I ay with just regular casters I get annoyed at how unreliable everything in our army is. Lots of moving parts to make the ay work, and all of them needing unreliable spells. I perpetually get given t1 since nobody wants it, try to get off an alpha strike but fail to either summon a 2nd Wildwood, cast spiteswarm hive or make the charge, get nowhere and am set up to take a punishing double turn and am way behind before I've really done anything. It's hard to make that whole combination reliable, and has me quite down about the army when skaven start with 3 gnawholes that also give a plus to cast.... Any thoughts on avoiding a useuless t1?

Sexy would be something like sisters of the watch or irondrakes that can wipe units on their own. Very killy even but without 'support' like cps or extra buffs but also quite expensive so they often want 'support' in terms of a screen or countercharge unit. I think obliterating units is what people think they want when they ask for a shooting unit, not something versatile but annoying like skinks

Its interesting to me that so many people are very much pushing the ogors/big block of gluttons side of things as the more competitive. Mornfangs seem to hit harder than gluttons on the charge, are about the same defensively (12 wounds on a 4+ for 140 points vs. 12 wounds at 5+ for 120), and nearly as good offensively when charged as well! Plus they are faster, and benefit from the lackluster everwinter bite thing. They also do quite well with buffs, with 2 good attack profiles. The huskard on stonehorn buff is also quite solid for them, and he seems decent on his own. Not as killy as the frostlord, but nearly 100pts cheaper is worth something as well, so for his points he is almost as killy, since so much of the damage is the stonehorn itself. You could even run them in bloodgullets to still get the casting support if so desired. Alternatively, Leadbelchers and Ironguts also both seem better than gluttons. The ranged attacks or 2'' reach while being similarly survivable adds a ton of versatility that gluttons with their 1 inch reach will be lacking. I've played enough sylvaneth Kurnoth hunters to know that on anything more than small units, 1' reach means many models won't be able to reach. Maybe its a function of what models people have though......

But seriously, did you play this list? It actually looks like it could be quite powerful. Well Maybe not the Butchers. But at least one big block of Dogs and a hunter and a CP farm artifact and/or trait. You could do a TON of attacks applied surgically on T2 and still bank yet another CP to strike first on their turn if needed. Something like this although understandably a little less all-in

Has anyone tried Maneaters? By math, they work out the hardest hitting in the codex if you assume they are charging after their throwing attacks. Kinda somewhere between a leadbelcher and an irongut. Limited because they are 30 dollars per model.'

No, but I was considering a gnoblar liberation army. All the ironguts yetis and gluttons etc will be stacks of gboblars maybe 4 tall with oversized weapons etc. Banners saying "no et uZ" or "fre da gnobs" etc

That makes it a lot worse and not worth considering Although I guess you could still do something similar with lots and lots of rhinoxes 1200 pts for 10x ironblasters or scraplaunchers =35 mortal wounds on the charge in a huge bubble. One ironblasters fights about as well as 2 gluttons, so it's not like you are giving up too much to do that. Plus the cannons arent terrible either, especially with the extra shot subfaction. You are going pretty all in on one strategy though so im not sure it really works out to be worth it though. Also I had done 19, not 9 earlier. This the math discrepancy.

I was just looking at the meatfists and pondering multiple tiny units to trigger the empowered charge. For example, 1520points, 9 groups of leadbelchers x2. Add a tyrant and a slaughterpriest and a few other toys to taste. On the charge they will average 40mw. That's unit destroying types of damage. And then they still fight and shoot Just thinking that msu actually gets more damage in for the charge than do bigger blocks. Has anyone tried this kind of approach?

I think even for unsupported you also need to have tactics in mind. Do you need to hit t1? Are you going to screen them? So even unsupported in terms of command abilities or whatnot, it's hard to judge given movespeed and range are so important. Some thoughts: Skinks with boltsplitters. Shoot terribly but screen and hold objectives like stars. Very cheap. Khinari heartrenders. Deepstrike means that sometimes the enemy must hold back very expensive units to keep them from taking objectives. And they can kill solo hero's easily. Freeguild handgunners. Can move and shoot well, can snipe hero's reasonable.. Not sexy, but they need very little to function well. Unlike many other shooting units they create support by screening and sniping, while also being very good on their own. Clearly not the highest damage but do just fine with nothing else. My choices are all not sexy but efficient role players

Yes. It is. Lots of viable armies, with several contenders at the top tables. Yes their are Atiers and C tier armies but very few S or F tiers. And all of them are balanced and fun and playable at a reasonable semicompetitive level I've been looking forward to a post like this after all the doom and gloom here sometimes

I think they'll be mid or even bottom tier. Nothing really stands out as broken just all around solid, which will make them great fun to play but won't hold up against dedicated tourney lists which will have those some tools plus something broken on top. Ironically I think the strongest tools will be yetis and Frost sabres. neither are particularly amazing but by themselves but they have the nearly gauranteed deepstrike+charge, the pile in from 6inches and the always strike first to make them hard to deal with in some armies. But only as a part, maybe supporting some ogors or mournefangs or something.

The challenge with it is yetis already do well in activation wars. You can retreat and leave them 5 inches out, to pile in from out of reach. And Frost sabres, while certainly interesting for their strike potential, but maybe more for assassination than for taking on main threats by themselves. Apparently math says it takes 17 Frost sabers with the +1 wound artifact to average kill a keeper of secrets. Not totally impossible, but a bit unlikely. Not a terribly return on investment though I guess. That being said, I think it might be good on your opponents turn. Prevents them from hitting you back. And now I'm taking myself into trying it..... That being said I think mawtribes will have a horrid matchup against slaanesh so it might not be worth planning around too much. All those 4 wound models....

For more human models, a pair of tiny magnets right at the wrist or somewhere on the handle (for my banners that always break off) tends to look fine. The secret is to not try to conceal it. Just paint it gold or metal like a bracelet or one of the many bands on poles. For an entire army though I think it might not be worth the effort though.

I think you want to find room for a freeguild general... You have a lot of infantry he could buff. I also think you might be a little to all in on magic too...for example, with the hurricanum and cp, do you really need the whitefire retinue? If you are using the retinue to lower your drops for a good turn pick, do you really need both spell portal and bridge to alpha turn 1? 300 pts of endless spells and then another 140 of battalion is quite a lot of other bodies. If you need more Battleline consider breaking up the handgunners. The sniper rifles seem good for finishing off lone models that survived your spells

Yetis and Frost sabres still seem excellent. Yetis hit less hard than ogors by a good bit, but can pull fairly good schenanagins with their 6 in pile in. I was considering a skaal, Hunter with at least 1 big unit of frost sabres and a unit of yetis for a nice and sneaky alpha strike with a big unit of yetis to follow up. Then when they retaliate I can pop always strike first to double down on it. Are their any ways to buff to hit rolls easily? So much of this plan hits on 4s Which can be quite swingy. I know there is the generic command ability. The pot is pretty random so hardly reliable.

I think the dominant lists will be 2x40 mortek guard in the petrifex army. Massively durable hoarded to march forward, and still tons of points for fast movers, buffers or kalvalos himself. People are playing 60xhearthguard in fyreslayers already and these don't seem much different while also being faster and cheaper.

I'm worried about the petrifex elite completely breaking the game, It is appallingly easy to get army-wide 3+ rerollable saves, given how easily you are getting the command points. They also have an excellent command ability, which is unusual for such a strong faction ability. Mortek guard easily get to 2 attacks, 2's and 4's and -1 rend. This puts them as nearly the killiest units in the game for their price point, beating out evocators with the reroll. And they can easily move 7 inches per turn, which is incredibly fast for basic infantry. And you have invested only 3 CP's, which is trivial to get every turn with kalvalos or 3 random wizards (who are already playable on their own), and don't even need a nearby hero. All you are using is the army-wide abilities. You could easily have this on 2 blocks of infantry per turn. Compared to pheonix guard in cities of sigmar (which many think are already very strong) they are 3 times as durable against rend 0, Still more durable against rend -2, 50% killier, Move 7 over 6. On the stormcast side, They are about as damaging as evocators with reroll against a 4+ save while also more resilient than sequitors with a castellant and rerolling saves while being faster than both. Compared to hag-nar witch elves with shields near a cauldron, they are twice as durable against rend 0 while still being just as durable against rend 2. Not quite as fast, but buffable to be almost as killy. People will suggest mortal wounds or shooting them, but remember, they are still 3+ save battleline infantry. Its not like they are even that expensive. They are also very easy to buff further with a range of low casting cost spells and other command abilities. with 2 attacks each and 2 inch reach they carry buffs like champs.