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Well, disappointing that a Keeper general is so bad, but maybe I can shift from Pretenders to Godseekers or Invaders, hmm.

So the main answer is "don't". So far I haven't been having a problem with chip damage - it's the super alphas from things that blow her up. Adding the 5++ has seen such alphas either continue to blow her up, or will leave her with just a few wounds left... And then no healing, so she just gets got next go.

My problem with the Aegis is the lack of healing - or is throwing her into combat less good? You can't heal in combat if I recall correctly. Only other option is life swarm

What are people's thoughts on securing the safety of a KoS, if you wanted one as a Pretender's general? If the answer is *don't* then fine, them's the answer lol.

Plus it still gives YOU all the information too. Just don't offer a temptation if the unit fully dies or something.

I think generating depravity is very opponent dependent, which is interesting. Slaanesh will have bad matchups and good matchups with dp generation alone

Yeah, I don't know how to handle temptation dice with fast rolling... That sucks.

With depravity, don't forget you only generate it in your own turn. If you kill a 10 wound unit every battle round with your euphoric killers, you will only have 50 depravity (plus temptations if your opponent agrees to them) by the end of the game.

I want Keepers to be good individually. In the first (ridiculous!) tome, Keepers were good in like, groups of 3, but one was extremely fragile. In our most recent tome, keepers are just kinda bad. I want them to be fearsome combatants, able to bonk a Bloodthirster reliably if used with skill and guile and or course plenty of panache.

What do you guys think the intent is with the Syllesskan Host? They don't have any real allegiance abilities, but they got FAQ'd in the latest FAQ and notably is the only Host that gives it's keyword to Coalition Allies (retaining the "All Units" wording rather than the new "All Hedonite Units" wording). Here is the precise wording: "All units in your army gain the SYLL’ESSKAN keyword and benefit from the following Battle Traits as well as the allegiance abilities they have for being a Hedonites of Slaanesh army." With the middle clause removed, it reads: "All units in your army ... benefit from ... the allegiance abilities they have for being a Hedonites of Slaanesh army." Does this mean Coalition and allied units get the default HoS benefits (like Euphoric Killers and Locus of Diversion)? Extending the default allegiance abilities to Coalition Allies seems like an even trade for having no enhancements (effectively saying: "your enhancement is that everyone in your army gets the allegiance battle trait").

I just need to see the whole tome. I feel like our army is supposed to be a glass cannon that gets its defense from special rule shenanigans... Except we're more like a glass noodle and Keepers have fewer special rules and shenanigans than LRL battleline. Playing against a buddy's LRL this past weekend felt a bit like our army are the hapless mortals, trying to get by, while eldritch horrors with magics and physiologies beyond our understanding assaulted us in every domain... which is sort of a ludonarrative reversal that would be humorous if it wasn't so disappointing. "my army is the manifestation of emotion and feeds on depravity and despair!" "Well my guys eat cookies and have a mage that inflicts the despair on YOU!" "WELL, my army is fast enough that they even outpace elves!" "I get to attack with 2 units for every 1 of yours because I am fast." "Well, my army is immaterial and difficult to connect with, sometimes flickering in and out of the realms to render mortal blades helpless!" "I get -1 to hit because I am shiny" "Well, my Keepers of Secrets are literally immortal, living immersed in magic" "I can auto-cast on a 9 because my elves think hard" ... At least we still have Dark Temptations. That's unique, right?

Ah, now it makes sense, the incarnates work under totally different rules because they are from THIS reality, while the creatures from the OTHER reality that doesn't follow our rules have to follow our rules. I get why the rules are so different now for them! Thank you! And yes, I'm sure if Khorne ever radiated savagery and predation he'd be way out of his league. You're right of course. Very different than Khorne's usual predation and then savagery.

Thanks guys! I didn't know where to look. That still doesn't answer the other question though: If I have a Hedonites of Slaanesh army and include a Coalition unit, that Coalition unit CAN (as far as I am aware) use enhancements if they qualify. So if a Slaanesh Slaves to Darkness Wizard is included in a Hedonite army, can they choose from it's spell lores if they qualify? (E.g. Lore of Pain and Pleasure for Slaanesh Mortal Wizards and Lore of Slaanesh for Slaanesh Daemon Wizards)? A specific example would be a Coalition Daemon Prince with the Arcane Tome, making it a SLAANESH DAEMON WIZARD in a Hedonites army. This *should* qualify for the spells from the Lore of Slaanesh, if I am not mistaken.

Hello! I have an odd question - well, really 2. Can a unit access a spell lore outside of the army's allegiance if it meets the requirements? Choosing a spell is an Enhancement, if I am not mistaken. For example, could a Slaves to Darkness Wizard Coalition unit in a Hedonites of Slaanesh army choose from the Slaves to Darkness Spell Lores, since it has all the requisite keywords? Example/question 2: a Slaves to Darkness Wizard in a Slaves to Darkness Army with the Mark of Slaanesh choosing from the Hedonites spell lores? (Since you only need to be a Slaanesh Wizard of various types). Why or why not? Cite your rules sources, as I am genuinely curious.

What bothers me most about this thing is it's rules are SO different than Daemons, yet... it's made of magic it inspires its "core emotion" in others (in this case, anger!) it is summoned by bound to a person This thing is just an anger daemon. Like straight up Khorne. It should just be a bloodthirster that everyone can take. Why are the rules SO DIFFERENT despite the fluff being SO THE SAME.

@Marcvs If you didn't want to use Stormcast units but were playing in an environment where Kragnos, the Incarnate, and etc. were very common, what would you run?

So when building a list, you don't plan for big stuff and just hope for the best?

So I guess the conclusion is that there is no CoS way to deal with big stuff, other than big tarpits (and even then, only where applicable). That's disappointing. Thanks @Marcvs and @Neil. I will swap out the cannons for more "stuff" and go from there.

I didn't know double Unleash Hell was banned; that kinda torpedoes one aspect of the list. Drat. How should I have known? Is it in the Core Rules and I just overlooked it? EDIT: found it! Core rules FAQ. Other issues: I don't like Arcane Tome with GWF. I am unconvinced their spells are good. The extra cast for the wizard is fine but I really do want to convert one from a steam tank, making the Steam Piston Plate Mail and it's 3+ a necessity imo. The Lord Ordinator is there because the cannons aren't for anti-horde except in a pinch - they are Anti Big Stuff. I can't think of how CoS would take down Kragnos or some of the Greater Daemons or Dragons without cannons, and the Cannons need that 3+ to hit to be reliable, imo. Open for other anti-big-stuff ideas though, preferably within the Ironweld theme. The reason I picked GWF is the buff to the Steam Tank's Steam Guns. 11" is way better than 8" and goes a long way to making the damage output viable. I have experimented with other cities, and my conclusions are: - Tempest's Eye doesn't have much that helps steam tanks. 2+ save is nice, but it's only temporary and most first turn shenanigans are directed at my other units anyways, since steam tanks take a while to become threatening. The extra move helps that, but the 3" range from GWF is identical for bringing the Steam Guns online, except that it lasts all game. - Living City I just can't get to work. The healing doesn't help (enemies rarely spread their damage out that I have a lot of damaged steam tanks), the Ambush I end up just bringing on near a hero because it needs support as very few of my units function well without lots of support from other units. The last one I would consider is Anvilguard, for complex reasons (vitriolic spray can become my anti-big-stuff) but there are other issues. For emphasis, the critical vulnerability of an ironweld (or even CoS in general) list that I have noticed is how to kill big things like Kragnos. The Ironweld Cannon is about the only tool I can think of, and needs the Lord Ordinator to be reliably improved against such a target.

So, uh, I know people are talking about how bad artillery was and everything. I made an Ironweld Arsenal list anyways, and I want some thoughts on it and the strategy for it. I play pretty casually but sometimes tournament practice strikes and I either don't get a game or must play competitively, so the list is somewhat dual-hatted. Anyways, here's the list, and thoughts after: City is Greywater Fastness LEADERS: - Steam Tank with Commander (General) with the Drillmaster command traid - Celestial Hurricanum with the Battlemage and the Steam Piston Plate Mail artefact (so I can get it to a 3+ save and convert it from a Steam Tank model) - Lord Ordinator - Cogsmith (Grand Battery) BATTLELINE: - One Steam Tank - The Other Steam Tank - Freeguild Guard with Shields and Swords, reinforced once (20 models) ARTILLERY: Cannon Cannon Cannon Helstorm Volley Gun (Grand Battery) Helstorm Volley Gun (Grand Battery) The plan for the list is to have one fire support element (ordinator plus 3 cannons), one heavy maneuver element (3 stanks and the CH) and one slow but angry maneuver element (2 HVGs and a cogsmith supporting the 20 infantry). The 2 HVGs will move up with the infantry, 3" at a time for each unit, cogsmith in the center. CH and steamtanks stay near by if feasible. The cannons and Ordinator are behind them all, possibly on an objective. I know the list will get wrecked by drop armies (i.e. teleporters and the like) but in general the idea is to spit fire downrange and absorb charges on the infantry, using the Battalion and a command point to double-Unleash Hell with the Helstorm cannons. They *should* still be hitting on a 3+, even with Unleash, and rerolling 1s, if I've managed to keep the maneuver elements together. The Cogsmith also lets them roll 3d6 for their shots EACH much more fearlessly, thanks to the reroll of one of the dice. In conclusion, everything in the list should hit on a 3+ in shooting, and furthermore everything wholly within 12" of the Steam Tank Commander's big base will be rerolling 1s as well. The cannons are 6 shots total of 3+/2+/-2/d6 from 35" away, which hopefully is enough gun to make up for the inefficiency of the artillery, and the Helstorm volley guns are great charge deterrents - or will certainly do a number if the enemy comes in anyways. The steam tanks are a hard nut to crack, and while there are big drawbacks for not being Monsters, there are also big benefits (since many enemy abilities key off of Monster). Thoughts?

I have a complex view of painting I think. 1) I will play against unpainted armies. 2) I still expect some progress on said unpainted armies (if it's been 2 weeks since our last game, Mr. Opponent, and you haven't even spray-primed a single model?) 3) I disapprove of eternally unpainted armies where no effort towards being painted is evident. This I think is a good compromise given what the OP suggests. I won't hold it against new players for not having things painted - I won't even hold it against them a year later if they're still not painted. What I will hold against them is a lack of progress - i.e. if they're making exactly zero effort to have the army eventually fully painted. The whole point of playing a miniatures game vs. cardboard chit game vs. meeple game is to have the beautiful, on-table spectacle. Showing interest in eventually achieving that spectacle (however long it may take!) is an "A+ welcome to the hobby" from me. Showing no interest in the spectacle whatsoever gets a "why are you doing this again?" from me. And yes, by definition, that's gatekeeping. People who don't want to paint their miniatures (or, more precisely, people who don't care enough to play with painted miniatures; I'm not too concerned with whether THEY THEMSELVES painted them) are probably in the wrong segment of gaming. The whole point of games like Chain of Command, Fistfull of TOWs, SAGA, (and yes, AOS) is to play out a movie-like spectacle on the tabletop. Other games exist that care less about spectacle (but are otherwise identical to miniatures wargaming, a'la some of the boardgame offerings from Academy Games) which are probably a better fit for gamers who don't care about spectacle. So I guess what I'm really questioning I guess is what is the nature of miniature tabletop wargaming? And is that nature changing such that the expectation of spectacle is no longer valid?

Maybe this has been answered, but there are WAAAAAAY too many pages to sort through: Any ideas on the best city and loadout for steam tanks? Am looking at 2 'squadrons' where each squadron is 2 tanks, 1 tank commander. So in total, about 1300 points. The options for supporting units are: - 2x Hurricanum, with wizards. This is good because I get lots and lots of casting. It is bad because it basically uses all my points forever. - 2x Hurricanum, 1 wizard, 1 without. Just cheaper but still has a cast. Slightly but not meaningfully cheaper. - 2x Hurricanum, no wizards at all. Cheap enough to be meaningful (i.e. can bring 1 whole new unit for the savings), but loses casting entirely. Boo. or - 2x Lord Ordinators. The cheapest, but far easier to snipe, 0 casting, 0 shooting, and "wholly within 9" is less useful than "within 10" for models that are the size of stanks. I would like to keep some infantry in the army to support the tanks and hold objectives. As for cities, I am looking at: "The Living City": Their outflank rules would allow one squadron plus supporting guy and maybe some infantry to outflank. This could represent the strategic mobility of the untiring steam-tank, as well as providing an additional way to really make sure the targets die. It also heals the tanks passively. "Greywater Fastness": +3" range doesn't help much, but has pretty good access to command points which can fuel the Stank Commanders and aid their squadrons. (4+ to generate 1 per turn, one artefact free, pay 50 pts for 1 more, etc). "Hallowheart": Fantastic healing spell, 5+ to ignore magic seems powerful on a Stank, and a tiny bit of CP generation (4+ each turn). Buffs hurricanums. "Tempest's Eye": Best CP generation (spell, 4+ each turn), but otherwise mediocre. 1st Turn buffs are good but not fantastic, and charging is okay for Stanks but not great. "Anvilguard": Pretty okay opening CP gen with the +d3, but otherwise unimpressive for Stanks IMO. Thoughts?

So they are purely Battleline and not also Behemoth? Is that how Gristlegore works?

Does the Steam Tank Hero making steam tanks Battleline override the fact that they are Behemoths? Or are they also still Behemoths and the "army of steam tanks" is a lie?

So the Steam Tank hero upgrade says "any artefacts or command traits only affect the commander's attacks" or something to that effect. For things that don't affect attacks at all (e.g. thermalrider cloak) does this mean they don't work at all? Or do they work normally?