foxicious
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Posts posted by foxicious
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Wowowowow,
I somehow forgot about the preview today and just checked the news right now. Everything about this is awesome.
The new models of the Khainite Shadowstalkers look stunning and I'm in love with the Ironscale. Really looking forward to the rules and all the juicy stuff of the Morathi book. Great times to be a follower of Khaine indeed!
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15 minutes ago, Graywater said:
Morathi being your general also loses you the ability to make snakes your battleline, necessitating a 3rd unit of witches/sisters, leaving even less oomph with those units. Additionally, morathi only gets her command ability when she is in her little form. So you will sometimes be stuck with the choice of keeping her small to use the command ability when you really need her to transform to hold up an important enemy unit. Also, you can be forced to have her transform even when you don't want her to if your opponent damages her. For these reasons, morathi does not make a good general.
Yup, even more good reasons against Morathi as your general.
PS: We really need an agree reaction 😁
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7 minutes ago, Mojo said:
The problem with that is Morathi needs to be your general to use her command ability. This means that you loose out on a command trait. Her ability, while powerful on paper, might not be worth this trade off (especially in Hag Narr).
For melee units you can get a similar effect with the slaughter queen. It effects only one unit, but how often are you going to have two melee units in position to make use of Morathis ability. Blood Stalkers are considered to be one of our weakest units. While Morathis ability might help them out, it is probably not leading to an insane damage potential.
That beeing said, if thats how you want to play your daughters, go for it! Morathi is an awesome model an what would be more fitting than having her lead your army
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I can't comment on DoKs durability makeing sense from a gamplay perspective, but as far as lore and/or aesthetics go I don't mind it.
For me durability is not limited to wearing heavy armor. In case of the DoK I always imagined it being a combination of high agility to dodge enemy attacks as well as a witch brew and faith induced berserker state, which lets them ignore wounds and fight on. There might of course be better ways to express this gameplay wise.
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19 minutes ago, Chumphammer said:
"We’ll have to wait and see to find out – but, perhaps, not for long. "
Might just be a hint that the warband is going to be released soon, but DoK 2.0 would be really exciting 😍
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4 hours ago, justpayload said:
morathi is incredibly jealous Malerion is a god and she isn't, she can't manipulate him and when she was at her lowest point he ridiculed her by giving her the worst part of Ulgu to rule(which she lucked out on and created Hagg Nar from), she would much rather destroy than help him and gain rule of all Ulgu.
Yeah she is jealous, she was from the first time they saw each other. Didn't stop her from trying to work together with him. He than rejected her, which for a woman like Morathi must be one of the worst offenses. Still she worked together with him, Tyrion and Teclis later on , because she would get some sweet elf souls out of the deal. Thats what I am trying to say. She doesn't love Malerion (she probably more than hates him), but if it is to her advantage she might work together with her former son.
1 hour ago, DantePQ said:Maybe that as strongly but there is usual love-hate dynamic between them and Malerion ownw much of Ulgu so why would she send troops to Malerion ? She was tricking rest of the Gods and taking more souls then she should - not to give them away.
Of course she would not give them away freely. There might be reasons for her to do so. Maybe she would need to send troops as a tribute to Malerion, who as far as I understand controls most of Ulgu. Maybe she would use these "allies" she sends him as a way to spy on Malerion to help her overtake his part of Ulgu. What I am trying to say is, if GW wants to add troops from Morathis side to Malerions army I feel like they could do so without breaking the lore.
That beeing said, I pondered about the inclusion of shadow elves to the Daughters and while it is not the direction I would like the Daughters to develop, I think they still would fit. They would help tie in Doomfire Warlocks (who are also kind of shadow alligned and we then would have more than one kit with repeater crossbows), which right now feel a little bit tacked on. I also quite liked your explanation why Malerions elves could focus more on a dragon aspect than a shadow aspect over in the rumor thread.
I guess my problem with the new design can be summarized in two points:
- If the Daughters of Khaine as an army get shadow elves and Malerion also gets shadow elves, they might become quite similar and might be combined, which I would absolutely dislike. This rumor pops up every now and then in this thread or the rumor thread and everytime I just hope it won't be true. Because while I argued for why Morathi might work together with Malerion, I actually don't think they would form an army together. Besides I don't want dark elves 2.0 😔. Of course this would not be a problem, if Malerion was more about dragons than shadow.
- The second point his highly speculative, because on the one hand what we have seen is just the design for Warcry and if units like that would be added to DoK there still might be changes and on the other hand we have only seen three (!) models of the whole warband so far. But judging by what we were shown so far, the inclusion of the shadow elves might also mean the inclusion of more male models to the DoK range. I always enjoyed the Daughters special role as beeing an mostly female army. Of course you could argue that the new males are also enslaved like the warlocks, but it would still water down the whole concept for me.
But those are only my personal concerns regarding the new design. Either way I am still looking forward for new Daughters models wether they are shadowy or bloody 🙂
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4 hours ago, DantePQ said:
Also lorewise Morathi would never contribute anything to Malerion.
What makes you so sure about that? I am not up to date with all of the lore, so maybe it is said somewhere. They don't like each other, that is true, but that hasn't stopped Morathi in the past. I feel like Morathi would work with anyone, if she is able to use that to her own advantage.
That being said, shadow path daughters might very well be a possibilty. Just curious to see how they would implement it so it doesn't mess too much with Malerions design space (His elves are described as being shadowy after all, aren't they?) or the role of Khailebron as our sneaky and stabby temple.
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49 minutes ago, rbstr said:
I'm guessing they're more matched to the potential/future Ulgu/Malerion elves, rather than the DoK?
At least they look like what I would expect Malerion elves to look. I don't think they are going to alter the design of daughters as a whole that much, since the Underworlds Warband still had the old design. So this could mean a few things:
- They are a Warcry only thing, just like Kurnothi are for Underworlds right now. So it might be the exploration of a new design space which doesn't lead to a new army/new units for AoS.
- The Shadowstalkers are a new "chamber" for DoK which introduces new units in a different design to the army.
- They are a preview of what we can expect from Malerions shadow elves. Maybe they are Morathis contribution to his army?
I really hope it is the third option. I think they look absolutely stunning, but I am with @Ggom on this one. They don't feel very fitting for the Daughters of Khaine we know (until now).
42 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:They look amazing and they‘re just one part of a larger Warband 😍
Yeah, they really do. I hope this is what Malerions elves are going to look like. Would get me really excited for that army 😍
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Sadly no. At the moment even GW probably doesn't know when, since everything is delayed due to corona...
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Interesting. A Khainite Warcry warband which is affiliated with Morathi but looks nothing like previous DoK design. They also seem to be mostly male?
"Warcry is great for letting us look at the areas of the Mortal Realms that you don’t tend to see anywhere else – and these new additions are no exception. The Khainite Shadowstalkers are the spies that Morathi uses to enforce her will across the realms. Even for a race from a land of shadow and renowned for their innate stealth, these guys are sneaky! They’re like mist in the shadows, only the mist has a poison dagger and a repeater crossbow… These dynamic models hark back to a classic Dark Elf aesthetic from the world-that-was, that of Khaine worshippers like Assassins and Shades. "
The preview text makes it seem like they are going to be a stand alone thing.
Edit: On second thought they look quite a bit like the misweaver saih...
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I know you are joking, but I actually would not mind some bull inspired shadow creatures as mounts for a cavalry unit 🤔.
Some additional lore would be nice though. I just hope they release a novel on Daughters some time to reveal more about their society. So far we only got a few glimpses through characters like Malaneth.
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Oh I didn't know they were mentioning it at warhammer weekly. Well thats good news.
I don't mind if it takes some time. I've still got more than enough witches to paint 😅
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1 hour ago, GrimDork said:
Personally, I completely agree!
Interesting thought, I could definitely see the cavalry being dual for the wind aspect. If they are dual, would make the army box an even more interesting prospect.
Exactly my thoughts, too. It may be wishful thinking but something like this would be awesome, imo:
Generic/Aspect
Dawnriders / Wind Aspect (cavalry archers would be great)
Spearmen / River (maybe sword wielding elves - flowing like a river and all that)
Archer / Zenith ( some magic and/or fire wielding warriors)
??? / Mountain (I have actually no idea what generic infantry the hammerer kit could be used for)Together with the other spoiled kits (Teclis, Eltharion, stone mage, veiled mage, stone spirit) this would equal 9 kits. If we assume the following:
Eltharion (Zenith)
Veiled mage (River)
Stone mage (Mountain)
Teclis/Tyrion dual kitThis would leave us at 13-14 kits if we were to add in another aspect hero, the other spirits and maybe an unaligned hero kit. Of course this would mean quite a big release and I don't know how many dual kits per faction are common, but I think this would be a range to get excited for ☺️
1 hour ago, LuminethMage said:Now, it’s waiting for next Monday again. And if we don’t get anything new then, maybe on the 18th. It feels like your are a donkey following a carrot. Most of us understand why they have to slow down the pace of reveals, but still. I think it would be helpful if they would let us know somewhat what we can still expect to come. A few more models? Another element on the scope of the mountain range? All four elemental factions?
Yeah, I am really happy to only be a bystander. This way I can follow the releases and the awesome models (which I all like up to this point) without too much tension 😅. Unimaginable how invested some of you guys have to be if you were waiting for reimagined high elves this long.
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First of all, I have to say, that I am really happy to see this thread buzzing with anticipation again. Even if I vowed my loyalty to another elven (half) god (don't let her know that I called her a half god 😱), it saddens me to see my elven brothers and sisters in despair.
I also think that it would be a strange choice of GW to tell us about this fantastic society consisting out of four elemental path and then only release one of them. It is of course possible, but would be weird nonetheless.
One thing that came to my mind and probably belongs to the realm of wild conspiracy theories is that looking at the kits released so far, none of them seem to belong to the same dual kit. Looking especially at the archers, spearmen and hammerers, they all look kind of similar but don't share the same parts. There might be many reasons for this, for example that they are push-fit because they belong to the battle box or that the Lumineth don't have dual kits or that the dual kits are more extensive or or or.... . But what if each of their kits does consist out of a general aspect-less unit and an aspect unit. That would mean that the hammeres kit would also serve as another generic unit while spearmen, archers and dawnriders might be the base for the missing aspect warriors.
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Are we really expecting new Daughters stuff soon? I think it might be quite some time until we see new kits for our beloved murder elves.
For now the AoS preview slot is going to be filled with Lumineth and Sons of Behemat and we just got our underworld gang previewed a few weeks ago.
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Yeah I also dislike the standard Slaughter Queen model and I am probably going to heavily convert mine.
The first list is going to give you some great looking models for sure, while also giving you a good base of units for anything Temple Nest related. While Temple Nest isn’t meta at the moment, it’s still not a bad battalion in my opinion.
I am really not in a position to tell anybody what is working and what is not, but I feel like a list like this is going to be suboptimal. Let’s have a look what this gunline can do:
- There are 40 Snakes shooting twice with Morathi’s command ability, so 80 shots hitting on threes, wounding on threes. This should give you an average of 6,67 mortal wounds and 31,11 normal wounds a battle round. So round about 38 wounds before saves.
- A unit of 30 double dagger witches close to a hero is able to do 120 attacks hitting on threes wounding on fours, which results in 40 wounds before saves.
I know it’s comparing apples and oranges, but it will help in explaining my point.
So let us look at the positives first:
- The snakes are ranged, so it might be easier to pick the targets you need to pick and they also don’t have to fear retaliation, like a melee unit would.
- The wounds caused by the snakes are more valuable, since they come with rend or are mortal wounds. So their damage output in the example above would probably be higher than what the witches can do.
- It probably requires more setup to get 30 witches in attack range than 40 bow snakes.
- Since they are ranged, the snakes don’t care about fighting first or last.
Now to the negatives of your list:
- In the example above the snakes cost a total amount of 1120 points, the witches only 300. Not counting Morathi or the support hero for the witches here, because they are also useful outside of this setup.
- While being ranged gives you a lot of advantages, it also means you can only shoot during your turn, while melee units can also potentially fight in the opponents turn. This means you will have fewer chances to apply your damage.
- Since your attack range is “only” 24”, you might not even be able to use Morathi’s command ability turn one, which means you are losing another bit of damage. This highly depends on setup, movement and going first or second of course.
- You are only fielding one hero. This fact alone will be a disadvantage at some missions, but it also means you don’t have any Hagg Queens to support your meat shield witches and no blood shield to bolster their saves. On top of that you are missing out on the opportunity to cast prayers.
- The lack of defensive buffs combined with the fact that you are running Khailebron and not Hagg Narr, means that your meat shield witches might be slaughtered in one turn of melee combat. This means that you would probably be able to only get out 2, maybe 3, volleys of shots before your snakes would be engaged in melee combat.
- Having Morathi as your only hero also means that you have to skip on command traits and artefacts.
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In the calculation above I did not take into account, that the witches could also be the target of Morathi's (or a Slaughter Queen's) command ability. While harder to pull of it would still result in even more damage. On top of that with access to witch brew and prayers, the witches could be buffed up even more.
That being said, there still might be a scenario where you are able to shoot off the enemies key heroes/models/units in time and just need to clear up the rest with the remaining witches or snake melee attacks (which are actually not too bad for a ranged unit). So I am not saying that this list is not going to work, but I think with how Blood Stalkers are priced at the moment this list would be at a disadvantage in comparison to a more standard melee list. But maybe someone is going to try it and prove me wrong, who knows 😅. I would actually really love seeing a list like this work.
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Hi Isabel and welcome to the Daugthers of Khaine.
Just a few tips to add to Chumphammers advices:
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Blood Stalkers are generally seen as a suboptimal unit, because they do not bring enough value to the table for the amount of points they cost. Normally they are either not taken at all or just used to fill out the requirements for the Temple Nest battalion.
You can of course take more if you like their aesthetics. Just don’t expect them to outperform Witches or Blood Sisters for example. - A lot of the Slaughter Queen’s value comes from her command ability, which she can only use if she is the general. If you don’t field her as the general I would probably rather take a Hag Queen instead. Again ignoring aesthetics and lore reasons here.
- You are fielding a lot of small sized units, which is of course due to the fact that you are trying to fit two battalions into your first two lists. As Chumphammer already pointed out it is easier to buff up few larger units than a lot of small ones. Because of that I would try to focus on one battalion.
With this in mind, your starting list could look something like this:
Morathi
Bloodwrack Shrine (general)
Hag Queen
Hag Queen
10 Blood Sisters
10 Blood Sisters
5 Blood Sisters (Could potentially also be 10 Witches)
5 Blood Stalkers
5 Blood Stalkers
Temple Nest
This is a slight variation from your third list. Giving you an additional Hag Queen as well as two Blood Sister units of 10. This list, in my opinion, is a pretty fluffy snake list (especially if you convert the Hag Queens to be more snakey🐍), which also packs some punch. You could also replace Morathi with more Blood Sisters and another hero (e.g. second Medusa).
If you want to have a list with a higher focus on Witches and a few Khinerai, you could do something like this:
Slaughter Queen on Cauldron (general)
Bloodwrack Medusa
Hag Queen
Hag Queen
30 Witch Aelves
10 Witch Aelves
10 Witch Aelves
20 Blood Sisters
5 Lifetakers
5 Lifetakers
Cauldron Guard
+1 Command Point
This list is quite similar to the one Chumphammer posted a few pages earlier. I have just replaced the Slaughter Troupe battalion with a Cauldron Guard, since it contains more of your preferred units. In my opinion the second list is more competitive, but since I am still building up my DoK army, most of my claims are based on theoretical knowledge. So take that with a grain of salt
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Blood Stalkers are generally seen as a suboptimal unit, because they do not bring enough value to the table for the amount of points they cost. Normally they are either not taken at all or just used to fill out the requirements for the Temple Nest battalion.
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5 minutes ago, Black Blade said:
which podcast was that? Looking for the title so I can listen.
It is the honest wargamer ghb19 faction reaction podcast for daughters of khaine. If you search for the honest wargamer on soundcloud you should be able to find it.
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19 hours ago, AthelLoren said:
Honestly, I think that DoK and Shadowblades, along with a few new kits and mistweaver/shard will all get tied into one. That would make for a HUGE new faction, and double as a new release for the so-far neglected Daughters of Khaine. I don't see why they should be separate. So basically, something like this:
DoK line
+ Shadowblades
+ Darkling Covens
+ Malerion, Battleline, and 1 or maybe 2 new kits.
I know that seems like a lot of units, but just look at the stormcast. This all comes out to 27-30 units. Ok, still a lot, but I think GW could make it work.
I really, really hope that they are not going to do something like that, for several reasons:
1. This would just recreate the old Dark Elf line for the most part, which I think (and hope) is not going to happen.
2. I don’t think it makes a lot of sense to include the DoK from neither a lore nor style standpoint.
a. Lore: The Daughters of Khaine are religious fanatics, who believe they can revive their god through slaughter and bloodshed (while in reality they are only strengthening Morathi). Maybe I am wrong, but I feel like the other elves aren’t too interested in a dead god when they have so many shiny new ones, who are still alive. So why would another faction want to include them? The old Dark Elf bonds should be gone by now.
b. Style: This is of course up to interpretation, but I imagine the daughters and especially the Witch Aelves to be screaming and chanting berserks who are throwing themselves into the enemy (most likely high on witch brew). This is not something I would expect from someone calling themselves the shadowkin. I would imagine them more like sneaky, silent, guerrilla fighters.
3. I can’t agree with your statement that DoK are neglected. They are (or at least have been, up to this point) a really strong army. They have a great range of models. Yes, they are a small faction, but this is fine imo. I don’t have any sale numbers, but judging by tournament data (I know it’s only the tip of the iceberg and the numbers might vary if casual gamers were included) they do have a meta share of 5%, which is were a lot of good and new factions can be found.
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@Absolution black I think at the moment it’s not as easy to give any final advice on meeting engagements since it’s still fresh and people still need to figure out what’s good and what’s bad. Also I neither own the GHB19 nor have played meeting engagement. That being said, I will still try to answer your questions:
- If you choose a Medusa (or Bloodwrack Shrine) as your general, Blood Sisters become battleline in addition to Witch Aelves and Sisters of Slaughter. So you can use all three to fill out your battleline requirements.
- I think both Witch Aelves as well as Sisters of Slaughter are viable, depending on the playstyle. I’d go with what you prefer visually.
- Normally Heartrenders are seen as the better choice of the two, since they are more reliable and versatile than the Lifetakers. Might be different for meeting engagements, though.
- If you go for the Medusa as the general without a Shrine keep in mind that she is very squishy. As InSaint pointed out that might not be as much of a problem in meeting engagements as in normal games, but still something to keep in mind imo.
- So going with InSaint’s first impressions as well as your preferred units I would probably start with something like this:
Bloodwrack Medusa
Hag Queen
Hag Queen
5 Blood Sisters
5 Blood Sisters
10 Witch Aelves
10 Witch Aelves
5 Lifetakers
5 Lifetakers
This should give you enough units to play around with and will bring you up to exactly 1000 pts. I have chosen Lifetakers over Heartrenders here, because they fit into the list very well point wise and seem to be better in meeting engagements. Keep in mind, that if you want to build up to 2000 pts. Heartrenders would probably be the better investment, if you don’t want to get both.
@umpac There was a thread on that topic discussing the pros and cons of shields (https://www.tga.community/forums/topic/18324-daughters-of-khaine-witches-and-sisters/). If I remember correctly the consensus was that daggers are better for the alpha strikes, while shields are the better allround choice. I think both loadouts are viable and we see a mix of both in a lot of tournament armies. Ben Savva, who uses big units of Sisters of Slaughter to great success (and, according to his interview to The Honest Wargamer, also thinks they will surpass Witch Aelves in efficiency with the new GHB 😉) uses one unit of each. So I would say that’s not a bad place to start.
@tomcabator15 As already pointed out I can’t give too much advice on meeting engagements. Maybe someone more experienced might help you out. For now I would probably look at InSaint's first impressions for what to take in your list.
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@ravensverd I think the list looks solid. You could trade in a squad of Sisters of Slaughter and the Blood Sisters for another 30 Witch Aelves and a Hag Queen. But that’s probably up to personal taste.
@Kuma The units you are getting look like a good core for an army. You could go ahead and play with them right away, with a list looking something like this:
Slaughter Queen on Cauldron of Blood (assuming that one of your two Cauldrons features a Slaughter Queen)
Morathi
Hag Queen
Hag Queen
Bloodwrack Medusa
30 Witch Aelves
20 Witch Aelves
10 Witch Aelves
5 Khinerai Heartrenders
5 Khinerai Heartrenders
To build up on that I would probably get another MSU battleline (10 Witch Aelves/Sisters of Slaughter)and another Hag Queen (e.g. the Darkling Coven Sorceress, so you don't have to buy another Cauldron set). Leading to a list like this:
Slaughter Queen on Cauldron of Blood (assuming that one of your two Cauldrons features a Slaughter Queen)
Morathi
Hag Queen
Hag Queen
Hag Queen
30 Witch Aelves
30 Witch Aelves
10 Witch Aelves/Sisters of Slaugther
5 Khinerai Heartrenders
5 Khinerai Heartrenders
@CommissarRotke There is not much to add to what Thenord said. Blood Stalkers are not considered to be worth their points, even with the price reductions in the GHB19. Blood Sisters are a much better alternative for their points. But even with Blood Sisters I am not sure if they bring something to the table a SCE army is missing, besides style maybe
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2 hours ago, redphlannel said:
I guess my new question is how necessary/useful are the battalions?
As Aspirant Snaper already mentioned the additional artefact will help you in Places of Power. That beeing said, a lot of high placing tournament lists seem to run either no battalion at all or Slaugther Troupe. So the daughters seem to be doing just fine without battalions, but that shouldn't deter you from playing one of the other battalions if you want to.
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2 hours ago, redphlannel said:
Hey guys, I'm pretty new to DoK and wanted to make a list that makes use snakes and Warlocks, since they're my two fav units in the army. However, I agree that Stalkers and the Temple Nest are sadly lackluster, so I'm sticking with Sisters only.
So far, I've come up with this list using Hag Narr:
Bloodwrack Medusa, General w/Devoted Disciples, Shadow Stone, and Mindrazor.
Hag Queen w/Iron Circlet
10 Sisters of Slaughter
10 Blood Sisters x2
10 Doomfire Warlocks x2
5 Khinerai Heartrenders x4
Endless Spell ???
Shadow Patrol
1970/2000 pts
It also leaves 30 pts for an Endless Spell, but I'm not too familiar with them and don't know one that will compliment the army. Any advice or changes are appreciated. Also, I've already got 10 unassbled Witch Elves/Sisters and don't really plan to add more than that. Rather save that cash for more snakes if anything ?
I feel like you are probably a little light on Hag Queens and a Bloodwrack Medusa without shrine might be a tad squishy. The thing with Shadow Patrol is it eats up a lot of points, nearly 1100 in your list, which doesn't leave a lot of room for other troops. If you are set on using Shadow Patrol and Snakes I would probably cut one unit of Blood Sisters and the Sisters of Slaughter. I would use the points to add two units of Witch Aelves, an additional Hag Queen and either increase the size of your left over Blood Sisters to 15 or add another Hag and put your Medusa on a Bloodwrack Shrine. Both options would leave you with 30 pts for potential endless spells. Then again I am also new to the daughters, so take everything said with a grain of salt ?.
Also, if you are set more on Shadow Patrol than snakes @Aspirant Snaeper had an interesting concept for a Shadow Patrol list without snakes a few pages back. If you are ok with skipping the battalion, you could also look at one of @Scythian's snake only lists, cut a few snakes and add Doomfire Warlocks instead.
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@Aspirant Snaeper The list looks crazy (in a good way). Reminds me of old hit and run Dark Elf lists withs lots of Dark Riders. Would you value the additional CP higher than the extra unbind and command ability of a slaughter queen?
EDIT: Nevermind. Totally forgot that Doomfires can also unbind. Well in this case an additional unbind is probably not needed.
@DantePQ really looking forward to the results of your playtesting. I was messing around with Lifetakers, Cauldron Guard and Chronomatic Cogs, too (in Hag Narr though). In the end I wasn't sure if all the "work" was worth it for the Lifetakers, since I feel like they are just more mobile Witch Aelves. So I am definitely interested in how they will be doing in your list ?.
@Tasman Grats on your victory!
The Rumour Thread
in Age of Sigmar Discussions
Posted · Edited by foxicious
Your first point is quite important in my opinion. I imagine societies in Aqshy to differ from societies in Ulgu for example. Heck, they might even be different in one realm depending on how close you are living to the realms edge or core.
What I would like them to do is to give detailed examples for different lifestyles of a faction for some chosen cities and realms. This way the players get an idea how a faction acts under different circumstances and how much its social structure might differ, without taking away the freedom of creating your own subfaction/city/way of living.