Orruk Boyz analysis

[Karhedron]

I am still slowly making my way back into AoS having not played WHFB since 7th edition. Looking at the various units I have available to dust off, the humble Orcs boyz (sorry, Orruks) look pretty good. For 100 points you get 10 wounds behind a 5+ rerollable save who have Rending -1 and are Battleline to boot. Ardboyz cost nearly twice as much and although they get twice as many wounds, they get no rending and unless they ditch their shields and the shields themselves are less good, at least against non-Rending attacks.

Everyone seems to be mad keen on Ironjawz and I must admit, the new models look shiny. But on paper, the humble Orruk looks very good value (especially combined with Rampaging Destroyers and Ravager to get them into the fight quickly). Am I missing something or are basic Orruks worth taking competitively?

[Gorks Pokin' Finger]

Oi lad. Fellow Greenskinz player myself who loves the everyday Orc as well. What I will say about them is they are good for destruction...but you need to know the matchup.

Yes they are fast and good at capturing objectives. Yes, they are affordable and come in numbers. Their rend also gives them a distinct advantage compared to other basic infantry. I've defeated liberators with basic Orruks.

However, until they get their update, Orruks will sadly be held back for the fact that they are only 1 wound compared to 2 with the Bonesplitta Savage Orc or Ardboyz. It's a big deal in terms of resiliency, especially given we have that good rerollable save. This is where the matchups comes into play.

Recently I tried an Ironjawz/Greenskinz mix. While the Ironjawz did well because of the amount of attacks I dished out, the Orruks struggled because their -1 rend is negated vs saurus . Along with the unpredictable 4+/4+, they were outmatched and ended up losing out.

I will keep using them because I love the basic Orc, but until they are updated, they will only succeed with the right matchups, essentially basic infantry who are susceptible to rend


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[Karhedron]

Thanks, clearly I still have a lot to pick up.

I'd better get playing.

[Ollie Grimwood]

I like them, choppas and shields is probably the best load out. Go big as 20+ get 2 attacks each. Take both the banners to mitigate Battleshock.

In combat the shields make them surprisingly resilient being able to reroll saves rather than just ones is good. Having rend on a battleline unit is also great. There are abilities available to boost up their to hit rolls.


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[Chris Tomlin]

The single biggest issue is comparing them to Savage Orruks, which have twice the wounds for the same points.

One noteworthy point is that bow armed Orruks are still generic Destruction battleline, unlike their Savage cousins (which have a separate warscroll).

[Karhedron]

That is a good point, I have a bunch of the old plastic 6th ed Archers that have never seen paint (as well as Ruglud's armoured Orcs somewhere). Grot artillery looks pretty good but are shooty Orcs worth considering?

[Furious]

I do full Greenskinz. I freaking love a unit of 40 orruks, with 2hw or spears or sword/board. They do well!

Buuuuut as mentioned, they just don't compare for their pointage. Something has to give with them, be it a wound increase or a point decrease.

But get a unit of 30+ spears, use WAAAGH and Bellowing Tyrant on them from a Warboss with a banner? That's three attacks of 3+/4+ (rerolling 1s) from each orruk within a 2" range of an enemy. Still a cheap blender.

[Dotification]

With how generic/vanilla/classic they are compared to the rest of the IP, I have trouble seeing them getting refreshed with a new battletome.  With how non-competitive they are compared to a Bloodletters + Tzaangor Enlightened list, the humble Greenskinz (who have a GSC! box) need either more staying power or to be embraced as a horde-style army.

Without a way (short of their own battletome) to add another Wound to all of their warscrolls, it would fall to the GHB 2 to give them a points reduction;

Warboss: 100 pts.

Great Shaman: 80 pts.

Orruks: 80 pts.

Boar Boyz: 80 pts.

Boar Chariot: 60 pts.

Ruglud's Armoured: 80 pts.

Warboss on Wyvern: maybe drop to 220??

Rogue Idol of Gork/Mork: ???

Thoughts?? Did I miss anything other than the named legacy/compendium models???

 

[someone2040]

In regards to regular Orruk Boyz. I think they're slightly overpriced at 100pts, especially when you compare them directly to Savage Orruks (Where the slightly better save isn't compensated by the better save). In all honesty, I think they're probably equivalent to Freeguild Guard @ 80 points. If you compare them to more elite things like Liberators and Blood Warriors it looks even worse as their attacks are better and they're less susceptible to battleshock.

The problem is (and I assume why the Warboss is pointed so high) is because his banner and command ability affect anything ORRUK keyworded. If you make him too cheap, then he just becomes an auto-include in any GA:Destruction list running other types of Orruks. Similar for the one on the Wyvern (Just lacking the Banner option).

I agree that the Great Shaman is way overcosted though. No idea why he's 140pts. I think 100pts is probably fair and in line with most other wizards in the game, has a slightly better save and an ability that can give him +1 to cast spells.

Ruglud's suffer a bit from a) The meta favouring long ranged shooting and b) Having to pay for Ruglud. They should cost more (As they do have a better armour save, which at least synergises with the fact they need to get up closer). The Orruk Bow vs Orruk Crossbow is largely a trade off which the game doesn't currently favour (Similar to Judicator Bows vs Crossbows).

I'd probably put Rugluds at 100pts (20pts over Orruk Arrer Boyz), and you just get a cheaper discount on Ruglud being a 3 wound champion with slightly better stats. The better solution is probably to pay 120pts for the initial Rugluds, then 100pts for an additional 10.

Boar Boyz and Boar Chariots are probably spot on. Unfortunately old-world cavalry/chariots just don't hit that hard anymore.

 

It's a shame, since I have some Orcs and Goblins I was collecting in 8th which in some ways, I'd like to make use of, but they're definitely on my radar as an army to get rid of as I don't see myself using them in AoS at the current time.

[Dotification]

There are a couple points where I would split hairs with you, @someone2040 but  as per usual, I largely agree with what you're saying & . . . GW doesn't care, even 1 iota.  

I assume they just did the Get Started Collecting! Box to move some old surplus . . .

[Anaticula]

I just want to add that in our feedback topic in this forum we stated that Orruk boyz should go down to 80 pts. This feedback was send to GW and they confirmed it was send to the game designers. We may see it in the GH 2.0.

[Chris Tomlin]

@Anaticula - GW have sourced a lot of feedback for GH2, some of it targeted directly and others freely submitted such as what you and others did here. Unfortunately I don't think that the advices of any one person/group will influence points changes, but perhaps after collating the data they will have spotted common trends and taken note. Just my personal thoughts on the matter of course.

However, I do happen to think a deduction in points for Greenskinz (specifically Orruk Boyz) is the most likely outcome. I honestly can't see a new battletome coming out for them. They do have some good components such as the Warboss and Warboss on Wyvern (which needs no reduction), but in all just feel very dated compared to the recent releases. AoS has truly moved on from the world that was and for the better IMO.

 

[Gorks Pokin' Finger]

[mention=2404]Anaticula[/mention] - GW have sourced a lot of feedback for GH2, some of it targeted directly and others freely submitted such as what you and others did here. Unfortunately I don't think that the advices of any one person/group will influence points changes, but perhaps after collating the data they will have spotted common trends and taken note. Just my personal thoughts on the matter of course.
However, I do happen to think a deduction in points for Greenskinz (specifically Orruk Boyz) is the most likely outcome. I honestly can't see a new battletome coming out for them. They do have some good components such as the Warboss and Warboss on Wyvern (which needs no reduction), but in all just feel very dated compared to the recent releases. AoS has truly moved on from the world that was and for the better IMO.
 

I think the old world armies will receive an update, though in what form or when will be later. I predict there will be in an an Orruks Battletome similar to DoT and BoK with updates to all three, but we are a ways away from that


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[Ollie Grimwood]

I think they scale a bit strangely to be honest, because of "Mob Rule" it means that 10 for 100pts is expensive but it's about right for the next 10 and so on. For me it's a limitation of the static points system and one which effects a number of units which receive extra bonuses based on unit size.

I couldn't really offer any simple solutions though.

 

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[Furious]

Honestly, I just want a couple decent and usable battalions for them, then I'd be happy. They don't even need that extra wound (but would need a points reduction - which is probably coming GHB2 style). They can be the real green tide, none of this 25 orruks on the battlefield IJ nonsense. 

Since we're talking Greenskinz, anyone have any good lists? I've done a 1500 that does decently:

Allegiance: Destruction

Leaders
Orruk Warboss (140)
- General
- Great Waaagh Banner 
- Trait: Bellowing Tyrant
Orruk Warboss On Wyvern (240)
- Artefact: Battle Brew

Battleline
5 x Orruk Boarboys (100)
- Greenskinz Battleline
40 x Orruks (400)
- Pair of Choppas 
5 x Orruk Boarboys (100)
- Greenskinz Battleline

Behemoths
Rogue Idol (480)

Total: 1460/2000

 

The Rogue Idol and Warboss on Wyvern that doesn't have to baby sit with a Command ability are both wrecking balls! 40+ Orruks with both banners and the Rogue Idol around, you don't need to worry about battleshock either for the first little while, and they hit hard being backed by the banner Warboss general. The Boarboyz are good at blocking, and generally a better choice than just 10 boyz. 

[someone2040]

12 hours ago, Furious said:

Honestly, I just want a couple decent and usable battalions for them, then I'd be happy. They don't even need that extra wound (but would need a points reduction - which is probably coming GHB2 style). They can be the real green tide, none of this 25 orruks on the battlefield IJ nonsense. 

A lot of the mid-sized factions really do only need a few battalions and a few hero choices to make them more interesting and viable. And at least Greenskinz have a few different types of units as well to make that viable. 

I do tend to agree that I think Greenskinz will fall by the wayside though. They don't have an identity between Ironjawz being biggest and toughest and Bonesplitterz being wildest and savage. They're just these regular Orruks, which exist to show that there are more 'normal' Orruks out there (Making the Ironjawz and Bonesplitterz seem even scarier to the regular humie), but unfortunately don't have much of an identity.

 

In regards to your list. It's definitely a more interesting list to run. I'm always a bit cautious of a big thing like the Rogue Idol tying up 1/3 points in my list, but maybe I'm just stuck in the old days a bit of balanced armies and not really liking big high costing units.

On a large mob of 40 you may want to consider Spears if you have the models, as they'll be able to make more use of the extra attacks from the Waaagh.

Some other things you could consider is with your 520 points:

1. A Chariot (80), Great Shaman or Warboss (140), 300 points of extras (3x 10 Arrers maybe, or one large unit of 30, or 300 points of your choice)

2. A Chariot (80), Warboss on Wyvern (240), 200 points of extras (20 Arrers, or maybe 10 more Boar Boyz).

3. 2 Chariots (160), Gorbad Ironclaw (160), 200 points of extras

I personally feel that having a few Arrer Boyz around wouldn't hurt, but you may just want to go all in on combat and being up in peoples faces at 1500 points. The Arrer Boyz though do give you a bit of range, which could be useful in picking off a few wounds on a character here or there, and aren't complete slouches in combat (They'll still get the extra attacks from Waaagh! and Mob Rule if the unit is large enough).

But yeah, maybe face is the place, and a Double Wyvern, 10 more Boar Boyz would be useful. The gut feel is that having two fliers which have decent attacks could be interesting in the scheme of things. It's a lot of units up in front, but you'd struggle against an army that's actually better than you in combat (Since Boar Boyz aren't great!).

Life is tough for a plain old Greenskin. If the army was 20% cheaper overall... just think about how many extra Orruks you could fit in... or you could have your cake and eat it two, as 300 points is most the way to a Rogue Idol.

[Anaticula]

I like to play a classic Orruk Grot list, definitely fluffy but not all too weak.

 

Allegiance: Destruction

Leaders
Orruk Warboss (140)
- Great Waaagh Banner 
Orruk Warboss On Wyvern (240)
- Artefact: Talisman of Protection
Orruk Warboss (140)
- General
- Boss Choppa & Shield 
- Trait: Ravager
- Artefact: Battle Brew
Moonclan Grot Shaman (60)

Battleline
30 x Orruks (300)
- Pair of Choppas 
30 x Orruks (300)
- Pair of Choppas 
10 x Orruks (100)
- Choppa & Shield 
10 x Orruk Boarboys (200)

Behemoths
Aleguzzler Gargant (180)

War Machines
Grot Spear Chukka (120)
Grot Spear Chukka (120)
Grot Rock Lobber (100)

Total: 2000/2000
 

[Furious]

Yeah - I like the arrer boyz. I find them good to fill the battleline tax, in a couple of units of 10. People don't tend to give them much attention so they're good at sneaking objectives and picking off a few wounds here or there.

As for adding a Shaman... at 140 points, never. A mystic shield is not worth that amount. That's an outrageously expensive wizard. They should be ashamed of themselves for that.

In regards to your list. It's definitely a more interesting list to run. I'm always a bit cautious of a big thing like the Rogue Idol tying up 1/3 points in my list, but maybe I'm just stuck in the old days a bit of balanced armies and not really liking big high costing units.

On a large mob of 40 you may want to consider Spears if you have the models, as they'll be able to make more use of the extra attacks from the Waaagh.

I find that you kind of need that one big monster... and the bigger the monster the better. It's expensive, but it carries its weight for sure. 

And yeah, spears are the way to go for the big units. I just didn't have them

 

[Furious]

4 hours ago, Anaticula said:

I like to play a classic Orruk Grot list, definitely fluffy but not all too weak.

 

Allegiance: Destruction

Leaders
Orruk Warboss (140)
- Great Waaagh Banner 
Orruk Warboss On Wyvern (240)
- Artefact: Talisman of Protection
Orruk Warboss (140)
- General
- Boss Choppa & Shield 
- Trait: Ravager
- Artefact: Battle Brew
Moonclan Grot Shaman (60)

Battleline
30 x Orruks (300)
- Pair of Choppas 
30 x Orruks (300)
- Pair of Choppas 
10 x Orruks (100)
- Choppa & Shield 
10 x Orruk Boarboys (200)

Behemoths
Aleguzzler Gargant (180)

War Machines
Grot Spear Chukka (120)
Grot Spear Chukka (120)
Grot Rock Lobber (100)

Total: 2000/2000
 

 

I love it - I've been making Greenskinz and Gitmob lists too, seeing what works. A unit of 40 bow grots with Sneaky Stabbin' looks like, on paper, that it would be a cheap but effective ranged unit. Plus, those artillery pieces, and a way cheaper shaman!

 

 

[Anaticula]

17 hours ago, Furious said:

 

I love it - I've been making Greenskinz and Gitmob lists too, seeing what works. A unit of 40 bow grots with Sneaky Stabbin' looks like, on paper, that it would be a cheap but effective ranged unit. Plus, those artillery pieces, and a way cheaper shaman!

 

 

I admit that I have some fluff problems with just adding one moonclan grot in there. But he fits in perfectly points wise. Otherwise, I could see myself exchanging the 10 Orruks for some Grots.

The artillery is really needed for support. Chukkas have to be together so they actually hit something.

The Gargant... idk. I started in 4th edition. Everyone had a giant in a greenskin army. For me he just belongs in there.

[Lord Biscuit]

i don't think Greenskins need a new Codex. I think Game's Workshop is spitting the non sig-marines up a little too much at times. I honestly think that ordinary Orcs can be slotted into the Ironjawz battletomb as they are very similar styles of army and it might be a way for a pure ironjaw faction to get a bit of shooting into it. Have this kind of elitist divide between ironjaws and "weak" greenskins and your sorted. It's a nice way to build up more varired mobility lists too, gore grunters, boars and chariots sounds awesome!

[meet.the.doctor]

I started looking back at the good old Greenskinz because of Skirmish. And was thinking of double Choppa option. And just want to make sure:

- having 2 choppas gives me 2 independent choppa attacks?

- if they are 20 of them do I get 1 extra attack for EACH choppa (Mob Rule)?

- if I use Warbosses Waagh! Command ability does EACH choppa get extra attack?

 

If all of these would be possible it means:

Warboss on Boar with Banner:

- General

- Waaagh!

- Waaagh Banner

20 orruks with double choppas= 120 attacks 4+ 4+ -1, rerolling 1 to hit (double choppa) rerolling 1 to wound (banner)

 

All that for 340 pts...

 

Am I right?

 

 

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[someone2040]

7 hours ago, meet.the.doctor said:

Am I right?

No. Two Choppa's still use the regular Choppa profile, but get an extra special rule (re-roll 1's to hit). 

Getting an additional attack from two weapons is a hold over from previous editions of Warhammer, and it's cleared up in the FAQ from what I remember for those in doubt.

[Solaris]

Nope, if you look at the Orruk warscroll you'll find that having two choppas let's reroll hit roll of one, it doesn't give you another attack. In your example, 20 Orruks would get 60 4+ 4+-1 attacks, rerolling 1s to hit and to wound. Even if they did get extra attacks from dual choppas, it would not be treated as a separate weapon - it would simply add 1 attack to an existing weapon.

[meet.the.doctor]

What a shame. I need to check the FAQ (4 pages of rules,eh?). It would be cool for those boys though. I compared it to "double chompas" on bonesplitterz. 2 chompas - 2 attacks. 1 choppa - 1 attack, which would mean 2 choppas...


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