Blades of BS

[WoollyMammoth]

The new Khorne book introduces a new concept - interrupting your opponent in their own hero phase.

You can now use 5 Blood Tithe points to attack someone in their own hero phase. But the rules are not clear when this happens, only that it happens "immediately". But what is "immediately"?

Most effects last "until your next hero phase". A lot of them are easily re-applied, like special abilities or command abilities. Is Khorne now able to "interrupt" your hero phase, attacking in this nanosecond of time between your ability ending and being re-applied? Or is it determined by whomever can finish their statement first? If you can say "My general activates his command ability" before your opponent can say "I activate my blood tithe points", then do you get to re-apply the effect before a khorne unit piles in and attacks? If so, is it based on who starts speaking first or who finishes first?

What about battle effects? A Treelord for example can stomp "at the start of combat". Does this count as combat or is this some kind of other-dimensional attack which is immune to the natural effects of battle?

How about relentless fury? This is an ability that Blood Warriors already have. If you were to activate this ability, does that mean a dead blood warrior gets the ability to instantly clone itself and make two rounds of attacks before dying?

[WoollyMammoth]

@Arkiham
Yeah that sounds good but its only interpretation of ideas, whereas the rule "if both players can use abilities in a hero phase, the player whose turn it is gets to use all of theirs first" is an actual written rule, that this would have to break in order to work that way, and the word "immediately" is not strong enough evidence to break a written rule IMO.

The blood tithe table can be used in either players hero phase, making it more of a broad effect than something clearly intended to interrupt someone in their own turn and break the rules of the game. The ability to interrupt someone and block them out of all their hero phase rules is borderline broken concept and I hope they FAQ it to say that, when used in your opponents hero phase, resolve all effects after they have finished their intended actions.

[WoollyMammoth]

I posted on Facebook and they forwarded the feedback along to the dev team. I guess until then we should just assume "immediately" means they Khorne can interrupt you from doing anything until after their Blood Tithe is resolved.

Relentless fury seems like it should give Blood Knights two attacks instead of one.

I'm not clear about "pre-combat abilities" like tree stomps for example. Anything that happens at the start of the combat or charge phase shouldn't happen I guess, since there is no combat or charge phase in this case.

I look forward to a FAQ for them to clarify  

[Killax]

On 18-4-2017 at 7:02 AM, WoollyMammoth said:

The new Khorne book introduces a new concept - interrupting your opponent in their own hero phase.

1. You can now use 5 Blood Tithe points to attack someone in their own hero phase. But the rules are not clear when this happens, only that it happens "immediately". But what is "immediately"?

2. Most effects last "until your next hero phase". A lot of them are easily re-applied, like special abilities or command abilities. Is Khorne now able to "interrupt" your hero phase, attacking in this nanosecond of time between your ability ending and being re-applied? Or is it determined by whomever can finish their statement first? If you can say "My general activates his command ability" before your opponent can say "I activate my blood tithe points", then do you get to re-apply the effect before a khorne unit piles in and attacks? If so, is it based on who starts speaking first or who finishes first?

3. What about battle effects? A Treelord for example can stomp "at the start of combat". Does this count as combat or is this some kind of other-dimensional attack which is immune to the natural effects of battle?

4. How about relentless fury? This is an ability that Blood Warriors already have. If you were to activate this ability, does that mean a dead blood warrior gets the ability to instantly clone itself and make two rounds of attacks before dying?

Blood for the Bloodgod Battle Trait and the Blood Tithe point usage are very clear on this subject.

Awnsers to your questions:
1. This happens once per hero phase, immediately after the player has declared to use his Blood Tithe points for this effect.
Once this ability gets used all other Blood Tithe points are lost and the next option to use newly generated Blood Tithe points is the following Hero phase (from either player).

2. It is determined by who's Hero phase it is. The active player can choose the order but also must annouce if he/she will want to do anything first and last. After that 'iniative is passed' the other player can continue as he or she likes.

3. Every rule has it state how it counts. The effects of this differ per ability. 

4. If several abilities are applied they are all resolved in the manner of the controling players wish. This does mean that a Blood Warrior can indeed have Relentless Fury AND No Respite resolve. Even under House-rules that state same name ability effects cannot be stacked. This is the case because Relentless Fury and No Respite are not the same named ability. 

Hope this helps.

[Arkiham]

3 hours ago, WoollyMammoth said:

Maybe, maybe not. There is no way to know because the rule is unclear so now we have to apply house rules to resolve it. Every tournament you go to might have a different ruling. I don't have a problem with Khorne interrupting you and attacking, a little annoying that they can circumvent the rules of the game but manageable if you plan for it. What I have a problem with is poorly written rules that cause debate and confusion.

How is it unclear?  Lol its more clearly written than most things, every T.O should have the same ruling, (not that they need to)unless they're intentionally nerfing khorne, immediately is as clear and understandable as you can get.

This is designed to interrupt the flow, that's obvious, what you are suggesting is that it isnt as of some faq question done months before this book about unrelated things.

there is plenty of things designed to clearly interrupt certain phases, that's what makes them strong.

You've a track record of being very anti khorne, and this is appearing to be another example of that. 

[Jharen]

How is this even open for debate, honestly. The rules here are pretty clear cut.  "Blood Tithe points can be expended at any point in either player's hero phase, but only once per phase...  ...immediately resolve its effects."  It's not fishy wording, it's not complicated, it doesn't have weird breaks in the sentence or misplaces words.  It says very clear as a RULE what it means to say.  The FAQ came out before this book introduced this NEW rule for a NEW ability, it OBVIOUSLY is not subject to an FAQ answer that was addressing abilities that were released prior to it's writing and which clearly do NOT even begin to stop the use of an ability clear intended to be used IMMEDIATELY.  Wow.  @Arkiham has done more than enough to explain this very basic rule.  This is common sense.

[BaldoBeardo]

Core rules say controlling player decides order.
BoK rules say you can cash in *at any time* to use an ability that contains the word *immediately*.

I fail to see how this is any different to other situations where warscrolls and additional rules create situations where there is conflict with the core rules. The special rules win, don't they?

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[Turragor]

It's like fanatics and that kind of thing isn't it?

It's YOUR charge phase and you decide the order of simultaneous events but you can't decide the fanatics (who interrupt your actions) go after your charges.

It's YOUR combat phase and you decide the order of simultaneous events but you can't say the opponent's quicksilver potion happens at the end.

I guess it is like any ability that lets you act in any of your opponent's phases first. The Khorne player who has ammassed the tithe points has potential overrides they can use at a time of their choosing.

It's strong but other units and armies have equally strong or stronger mechanics.

 

[WoollyMammoth]

5 hours ago, Arkiham said:

But it wouldn't be unreasonable to declare a ability at the start if your hero phase (before the khorne opponent does,) and the khorne player go, cool I want to spend my blood tithe points to do something also. Then that is both resolved at the same time, rather than cracking out a list if things to do before that immediate action happens. 

Maybe, maybe not. There is no way to know because the rule is unclear so now we have to apply house rules to resolve it. Every tournament you go to might have a different ruling. I don't have a problem with Khorne interrupting you and attacking, a little annoying that they can circumvent the rules of the game but manageable if you plan for it. What I have a problem with is poorly written rules that cause debate and confusion.

[Arkiham]

But it wouldn't be unreasonable to declare a ability at the start if your hero phase (before the khorne opponent does,) and the khorne player go, cool I want to spend my blood tithe points to do something also. Then that is both resolved at the same time, rather than cracking out a list if things to do before that immediate action happens. 

I feel it does override it, that's literally the point of the tithe system to break the flow of the game and mess with your opponent.

Literally every single one and the description emphases that they are resolved immediately. 

 

[Arkiham]

2 hours ago, WoollyMammoth said:

- There is nothing that says a Khorne player can "interrupt" an opponent. This is an assumption.

 

Does it need to be literally written down as a rule in big bold writing in order for you to see it ? I mean, how often do you come across the term "resolve this immediately " And it doesn't meant that.

 

"Resolve this immediately.. but not right now,  like.. you know ... in your own time, when your ready, if that's ok with your opponent, best get their permission and make sure they're all done before resolving this immediate action "

 

Come on...does it really require a box of text telling you this immediate reaction is resolved immediately. There's more important things that need faq'ing

[WoollyMammoth]

5 minutes ago, rokapoke said:

You mean like the title of this thread?

its just a joke. 

[rokapoke]

18 minutes ago, WoollyMammoth said:

Comments like this are unproductive and completely unnecessary.

You mean like the title of this thread?

[WoollyMammoth]

13 hours ago, Arkiham said:

If you play like nothings changed and get steamed rolled by these new rules, it doesn't mean they're broken it means you don't play well.

Comments like this are unproductive and completely unnecessary.

- There is a rule that, when two things are happening at the same time, then the controlling player chooses their order.
- There is nothing that says a Khorne player can "interrupt" an opponent. This is an assumption.

Therefore, if I am activating an Ability at the start of my hero phase, and my opponent wants to activate his blood tithe table, both actions are happening at the same time and therefore I get to pick the order, and as such I can say my ability is activated first. 

I understand that you might say, this is happening immediately so you cannot do another action, but its impossible to prevent someone from taking any action.

 

[Arkiham]

6 hours ago, WoollyMammoth said:

@Arkiham
Yeah that sounds good but its only interpretation of ideas, whereas the rule "if both players can use abilities in a hero phase, the player whose turn it is gets to use all of theirs first" is an actual written rule, that this would have to break in order to work that way, and the word "immediately" is not strong enough evidence to break a written rule IMO.

The blood tithe table can be used in either players hero phase, making it more of a broad effect than something clearly intended to interrupt someone in their own turn and break the rules of the game. The ability to interrupt someone and block them out of all their hero phase rules is borderline broken concept and I hope they FAQ it to say that, when used in your opponents hero phase, resolve all effects after they have finished their intended actions.

So the written passage if text saying "resolve this immediately " isn't a written passage of text ? And it is a rule, it's not a core rule but a rule.

It's clearly designed to interrupt your opponent. Otherwise why even bother putting immediately?  It would just say in either players hero phase you can activate this like normal abilities.

 

But it doesn't it says in varying ways but essentially "resolve this immediately "

That is clearly designed to interrupt, and no it's not broken it's new. Just takes time to used to And learn to play against, once you starts taking into consideration that the khorne player could do these things then it becomes less effective. 

If you play like nothings changed and get steamed rolled by these new rules, it doesn't mean they're broken it means you don't play well.

[Arkiham]

Is say that if the khorne player says immediately at the start of the phase, hey I'd like to use my points to use apoplectic fury, (which states that it's resolved immediately) then they go first, 

 

Same if after casting a command ability on a unit to give it a move roll or something you could  use it after before your opponent moves another unit 

 

It's meant to disrupt the phase an order of things, thus is shown by how it's  written

This is the same argument as skarbrands axe, the descriptions in both cases are to be taken literally.

Immediately means immediately. It interrupts the opposing generals strategy and causes confusion.

[LordRogalDorn]

Except that it does say to resolve it immediately. 

[WoollyMammoth]

yes you can expend your points at any point to activate an ability. Then the order of all hero phase abilities is determined by the controlling player. To me, this means you don't have to announce it at the start of the phase or at the end of the phase, you can announce it whenever you feel like it. But there is nothing to prove Khorne gets some kind of interrupt ability.

[BaldoBeardo]

Blood tithe points can be expended at *any* point in either player's hero phase..


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[Killax]

Khorne approves of this rage!
 

 
This is basically how Bloodedball works!

[WoollyMammoth]

1 hour ago, rokapoke said:

However, GW has directly countermanded that with certain rulings -- for instance, Kroak's inability to use his spell multiple times due to the rules of 1. It's hard to determine a set-in-stone way to do things when rules are contradictory when the FAQs sometimes indicate that the published rules trump the warscrolls.

The only thing that can overturn the rules of 1 is the FAQ. Kroak was designed to cast the same spell multiple times so they made an exception for him. The FAQ points out any exceptions where the intended rules might be limited by the GH. We cannot assume that anything has an exception unless the FAQ specifically says so.
 

1 hour ago, Nico said:

There are clear rules about the "start of the combat phase" - see the FAQ, e.g. in relation to Assassins and Nasty Skulkers. Treat it as a wholly separate sub-phase (which precedes the combat phase proper). In the unlikely event that both players have rules which apply in the start of a phase, the player whose turn it is uses theirs first (oddly they cannot choose the order).

What ruling are you saying with this statment? I understand that at the start of the combat phase is a sub-phase, but Khorne would be attacking in the hero phase: "That unit can attack as if it is the combat phase". Seems like the Khorne models are transporting to another dimension, where they are attacking you outside the bounds of normal combat, and therefore any combat abilities you may have are negated.
 

4 hours ago, Cagos said:

The Rules for the Hero phase clearly says that "if both players can use abilities in a hero phase, the player whose turn it is gets to use all of theirs first"

Until there is a FAQ, this rule seems to be the only clear ruling. "Immediately" doesn't mean anything - whenever you do something, you are immediately doing it. This rule clarifies that the player who's turn it is gets to decide the order of when you get to do it.  Unbinding is not an ability, it is the natural part of the spell casting process. Blood Tithe is an ability; "Armies with the KHORNE allegiance gain the following abilities".

Until a FAQ overrides (and knowing the FAQ, I'm sure it will) if you use the Blood Tithe table in your opponents hero phase, your opponent gets to decide the order in which everything happens. 

Anyone have any ideas for relentless fury + blood knights?

Also it seems like Bloodsecrators no longer stack, is this the case?



 

[Nico]

Quote

However, GW has directly countermanded that with certain rulings -- for instance, Kroak's inability to use his spell multiple times due to the rules of 1. It's hard to determine a set-in-stone way to do things when rules are contradictory when the FAQs sometimes indicate that the published rules trump the warscrolls.

Well in the example you gave, the Rules of One are quite clearly up on a pedestal - catchy name and emphatic box that they are set out in. Nevertheless, it was a tad surprising for Kroak in the FAQ - this establishes a principle that some rules are more ironclad than others (and you can see the purpose behind this).

Here, the newer rule is in direct contradiction to the earlier FAQ answer and in an emphatic way - both "immediately" and "at any point". It's also worth pointing out that neither of these terms would have been needed if the rule was only intended to work in your own hero phase (where the order of abilities is pretty much down to the player whose turn it is) - you could argue that they have been added specifically to deal with the timing issue in the enemy hero phase. 

The exception would be Khorne vs Khorne, where both players having the right to use Blood Tithe points would mean that it would go back to the Hints and Tips for simultaneous abilities (so the player whose turn it is would use its Blood Tithe points first). 

[rokapoke]

39 minutes ago, Nico said:

It's worth bearing in mind that special rules by definition add to or contradict the core rules (that's why they are special) - so the emphatic "at any point" and "immediately" should prevail here.

However, GW has directly countermanded that with certain rulings -- for instance, Kroak's inability to use his spell multiple times due to the rules of 1. It's hard to determine a set-in-stone way to do things when rules are contradictory when the FAQs sometimes indicate that the published rules trump the warscrolls.

[Nico]

Quote

What about battle effects? A Treelord for example can stomp "at the start of combat". Does this count as combat or is this some kind of other-dimensional attack which is immune to the natural effects of battle?

There are clear rules about the "start of the combat phase" - see the FAQ, e.g. in relation to Assassins and Nasty Skulkers. Treat it as a wholly separate sub-phase (which precedes the combat phase proper). In the unlikely event that both players have rules which apply in the start of a phase, the player whose turn it is uses theirs first (oddly they cannot choose the order).

Quote

The Rules for the Hero phase clearly says that "if both players can use abilities in a hero phase, the player whose turn it is gets to use all of theirs first"

I'm finding it impossible to reconcile this with the "immediately" wording and the "at any point in either player's hero phase" wording of the Blood Tithe rule. If you applied the wait until the end of the phase, then this would be deleting all of that wording from the rule. It's worth bearing in mind that special rules by definition add to or contradict the core rules (that's why they are special) - so the emphatic "at any point" and "immediately" should prevail here.

 

[Tokyo Nift]

29 minutes ago, Cagos said:

The Rules for the Hero phase clearly says that "if both players can use abilities in a hero phase, the player whose turn it is gets to use all of theirs first"

This isn't always the case though. For example with unbinding.

[Cagos]

The Rules for the Hero phase clearly says that "if both players can use abilities in a hero phase, the player whose turn it is gets to use all of theirs first"


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