rokapoke Posted August 25, 2017 Share Posted August 25, 2017 1 minute ago, Naflem said: Negative Ghost Rider, the Khemist ability isn't written like that. Khemist ability says "pick a friendly Skyfarers unit within 10". Until your next hero phase, add 1 to the Attacks characteristic of one kind of weapon carried by the unit (e.g. their Privateer Pistols)." It doesn't use the world "any" at all, so this FAQ section doesn't apply to it. So looks like Khemists are still fine and stackable (which would would expect given that they a) said that abilities would be stackable still on twitch but they've raise points of certain models to compensate and b) Khemist points went up 40%. However, in the Order FAQ (https://17890-presscdn-0-51-pagely.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/AoS_FAQ_Order_v1.2.pdf), the Khemist himself is specifically changed to state "A weapon cannot be augmented more than once per hero phase." So no, they aren't stackable -- or at least, not on the same weapon type within a unit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naflem Posted August 25, 2017 Share Posted August 25, 2017 19 minutes ago, rokapoke said: However, in the Order FAQ (https://17890-presscdn-0-51-pagely.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/AoS_FAQ_Order_v1.2.pdf), the Khemist himself is specifically changed to state "A weapon cannot be augmented more than once per hero phase." So no, they aren't stackable -- or at least, not on the same weapon type within a unit. Well, Darn... edit: and my drill cannons!! edit edit: hey that was my question about the Skaven Deathrunner tho! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Lyons Posted August 25, 2017 Share Posted August 25, 2017 30 minutes ago, Naflem said: Well, Darn... edit: and my drill cannons!! edit edit: hey that was my question about the Skaven Deathrunner tho! More than just 1 or 2 things got changed here... With the changes that dropped today and the Thunderer changes, which were 18 in number to the text and values on the KO warscrolls (most of which were negative), you functionally can't play the faction from the book/cards without making mistakes. Every non-hero unit had changes made to them. This product went to market less than 4 months ago and 2/3 of the scrolls are now inaccurate. I think its time for GW to do a product recall and provide free reprinted books and cards to folks who purchased them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Buckler Posted August 25, 2017 Share Posted August 25, 2017 Overall happy with the FAQ, the riggers and wardens needed to go up by 20pts for me, to cut back the spam. Change to drill cannons has same effect. Agree workshop need to do something RE the cards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lecfast Posted August 25, 2017 Share Posted August 25, 2017 Hmm. So the change in range for that one ships gun is nice, but the changein damage to D3 on the drill cannon hurts. Our ships already had a problem doing enough to make them viable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
menacingeye Posted August 25, 2017 Share Posted August 25, 2017 1 hour ago, Thomas Lyons said: More than just 1 or 2 things got changed here... With the changes that dropped today and the Thunderer changes, which were 18 in number to the text and values on the KO warscrolls (most of which were negative), you functionally can't play the faction from the book/cards without making mistakes. Every non-hero unit had changes made to them. This product went to market less than 4 months ago and 2/3 of the scrolls are now inaccurate. I think its time for GW to do a product recall and provide free reprinted books and cards to folks who purchased them. I agree. If there was this much wrong with this faction then maybe they should've held off on releasing them until they were ready. At this point it'll be confusing to try to remember all the rule changes that I'm probably just going to shelve them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adolphus Posted August 25, 2017 Share Posted August 25, 2017 Yeah I could live with the changes if it didn't mean my books and cards were so riddled with errors and if they actually improved other aspects like very over costed ships and special characters. Why did the khemist go up in points if they were also going to need the buff? I'm fine with nerfing the buff, but why increase the points. And for that matter why not bring down the admiral as well. Just scratching my head at some of the rulings. K.O. weren't exactly tearing up the tournament scene, and now all their elite units have been gutted it's hard to build diverse competitive lists, that include the cool models. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaotic Neutral Posted August 25, 2017 Share Posted August 25, 2017 2 hours ago, Naflem said: Well, Darn... edit: and my drill cannons!! edit edit: hey that was my question about the Skaven Deathrunner tho! vindication! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chikout Posted August 25, 2017 Share Posted August 25, 2017 3 hours ago, Thomas Lyons said: More than just 1 or 2 things got changed here... With the changes that dropped today and the Thunderer changes, which were 18 in number to the text and values on the KO warscrolls (most of which were negative), you functionally can't play the faction from the book/cards without making mistakes. Every non-hero unit had changes made to them. This product went to market less than 4 months ago and 2/3 of the scrolls are now inaccurate. I think its time for GW to do a product recall and provide free reprinted books and cards to folks who purchased them. Your anger is definitely understandable. A good make-good would be to do a new warscroll card pack and offer that for free to anyone who bought the book. As for the future power level of KO it has certainly been nerfed but so has pretty much every tournament winning list of the last 2 years. It will be interesting to see how things shake out in the next few months. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlyRebirth Posted August 26, 2017 Share Posted August 26, 2017 I find this extremely annoying. I created a list on KO launch day (not one that ended up being a tournament list) that I thought would be fun, and bought everything I needed. I'm not a tournament player, so only just finished building everything... and now almost every unit has changed (generally for the worse). I like the idea of annual updates, and accept that some units needed point tweaks. I'm not sure I expected the Khemists to emerge unscathed with respect to stacking... but I didn't expect anything on this scale, though. Feature nerfs and points nerfs all over the place. Just the constant flicking between Battletome and FAQ/GHB17 is going to be a headache, but I don't get how they can make such big changes to something not even fully tested on the tabletop. Given the lead times on publishing, I fail to see how they can have had any real time to get "feedback" from the community before committing to all this. Tzeentch, okay. Even the latest SC book and at a push Blades of Khorne, but I feel a bit burned right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin K Posted August 27, 2017 Share Posted August 27, 2017 I'm generally ok with the changes they made taken individually. The thing that I'm really noticing now though is how truly over-costed the ships are. I like the ships but am having problems making a reasonable list at different levels. If the intent of the change was to move the army closer to the intent, a big drop in ship cost would have gone a long way. Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikester1487 Posted August 28, 2017 Share Posted August 28, 2017 Hey guys, quick question for building alliances into your armies. Under the fyreslayer section the vulkite berserkers are labeled as "battle line" Not "battle line if", but azyr is informing me that I Am incorrect to use part of my alliance towards my battle line count. So we really will have to take 3 units of company and then whatever else? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FractalRain Posted August 28, 2017 Share Posted August 28, 2017 Mikester1487, I believe that is correct, or at least that is how I understand it! I am not sure if any Ally unit can count as Battleline for any army, but I haven't seen changes for all the factions yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FractalRain Posted August 28, 2017 Share Posted August 28, 2017 On 8/25/2017 at 4:10 PM, Adolphus said: Yeah I could live with the changes if it didn't mean my books and cards were so riddled with errors and if they actually improved other aspects like very over costed ships and special characters. Why did the khemist go up in points if they were also going to need the buff? I'm fine with nerfing the buff, but why increase the points. And for that matter why not bring down the admiral as well. Just scratching my head at some of the rulings. K.O. weren't exactly tearing up the tournament scene, and now all their elite units have been gutted it's hard to build diverse competitive lists, that include the cool models. I am in total agreement with you here. It makes no sense to nerf the Thunderers, the Khemist, and increase the Khemist cost! They could have just changed the Khemist buff and solved that problem, without limiting the usefulness of the Thunderers. And as you and others stated, the ships are very overpriced for what they do and I was disappointed they didn't decrease their price or make them more useful somehow. Overall, I too am feeling very disappointed with the extensive changes for an army which has only been out since April. I feel they just slashed at certain elements without adjusting anything else to make it work well together with the changes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikester1487 Posted August 28, 2017 Share Posted August 28, 2017 6 minutes ago, FractalRain said: Mikester1487, I believe that is correct, or at least that is how I understand it! I am not sure if any Ally unit can count as Battleline for any army, but I haven't seen changes for all the factions yet. Ah ok, no big deal in the end its more dwarves to punch stuff. But some my balloon boys will have to take a seat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikester1487 Posted August 28, 2017 Share Posted August 28, 2017 As with the discussion on points it does feel a little off that the biggest changes we received were nerfs and no price decreases on the ships. My biggest question here is what happened to the gunhauler? It was talked about as being overpriced since day one, and with its inability to haul units around I feel it will continue to not see use with KO armies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dez Posted August 28, 2017 Author Share Posted August 28, 2017 I'm of 2 minds on these changes so far. First off, I love the look of the army so Fluffington P. Whirlydoodle is still happy. This will make me happy to play with my Boats and Balloon Boyz in some fun narrative play. However, I just dumped a LOT of money into this army to make it competetive, I love playing hard as well as in tournaments. My aim was to make a competetive army that looks great on the tabletop...now it's just a lukewarm army that will look great on the tabletop...if I get motivated to finish it. I use the tournaments here as motivation to finish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Lyons Posted August 28, 2017 Share Posted August 28, 2017 32 minutes ago, Mikester1487 said: Hey guys, quick question for building alliances into your armies. Under the fyreslayer section the vulkite berserkers are labeled as "battle line" Not "battle line if", but azyr is informing me that I Am incorrect to use part of my alliance towards my battle line count. So we really will have to take 3 units of company and then whatever else? Correct. Allied units do not count towards batteline. GW believes that the company is diverse enough from their weapon options that it is like having three separate unit options for battleline. 2 minutes ago, Dez said: I'm of 2 minds on these changes so far. First off, I love the look of the army so Fluffington P. Whirlydoodle is still happy. This will make me happy to play with my Boats and Balloon Boyz in some fun narrative play. However, I just dumped a LOT of money into this army to make it competetive, I love playing hard as well as in tournaments. My aim was to make a competetive army that looks great on the tabletop...now it's just a lukewarm army that will look great on the tabletop...if I get motivated to finish it. I use the tournaments here as motivation to finish. This. Completely this. I'm fortunate to have planned my KO force as a joint KO/Fyreslayer force as a beginning, so there is still a shot that I'll be able to play this force competitively. That said, its unfortunate that I'm not likely to run KO pure any longer in matched play in any serious sort of way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nico Posted August 28, 2017 Share Posted August 28, 2017 @Dez It's worth keeping in mind that the power level of all strong armies got nerfed on the new book Skyfires, Stonehorns, Kunning Rukk, Mixed Allegiance Traits and Tzeentch. We still have the utterly filthy Zilfin abilities (while other alpha strikes were nerfed); and a Battleline unit that can snipe heroes and monsters with -2 rend. The Khemist buff is still amazing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dez Posted August 28, 2017 Author Share Posted August 28, 2017 27 minutes ago, Nico said: @Dez It's worth keeping in mind that the power level of all strong armies got nerfed on the new book Skyfires, Stonehorns, Kunning Rukk, Mixed Allegiance Traits and Tzeentch. We still have the utterly filthy Zilfin abilities (while other alpha strikes were nerfed); and a Battleline unit that can snipe heroes and monsters with -2 rend. The Khemist buff is still amazing. Yeah those are the things that still have me at the thinking about things level. I am trying to reserve judgement until I get some practice games in, though I've gone from playing multiple games weekly to not playing much at all due to family health issues. Hoping things get on the up and up soon so I can continue destroying my enemies in the friendliest way possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nico Posted August 28, 2017 Share Posted August 28, 2017 Quote That said, its unfortunate that I'm not likely to run KO pure any longer in matched play in any serious sort of way. This is an exaggeration. They are still very strong as an army. They just aren't tabling the opponent by the end of Battleround two strong any more. Reading Gary Percival's accounts of his list it felt like 60% of games were (a) completely one sided to the point that it was inevitable who would win; and (b) left the opponent doing little other than take off models. In the longer term the lack of credible 30/40 blocks will hurt in terms of scoring objectives, but same story for Stormcast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nico Posted August 28, 2017 Share Posted August 28, 2017 30 Longbeards and a Runelord seems a reasonable ally choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikester1487 Posted August 28, 2017 Share Posted August 28, 2017 I'm going to hold full judgement and watch a few things. The two biggest in my mind being skyport choice and thunderer use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Buckler Posted August 28, 2017 Share Posted August 28, 2017 7 minutes ago, Nico said: This is an exaggeration. They are still very strong as an army. They just aren't tabling the opponent by the end of Battleround two strong any more. Reading Gary Percival's accounts of his list it felt like 60% of games were (a) completely one sided to the point that it was inevitable who would win; and (b) left the opponent doing little other than take off models. In the longer term the lack of credible 30/40 blocks will hurt in terms of scoring objectives, but same story for Stormcast. Agree they are still strong Nico, not event winning, but I don't think pre changes they were ever that either. Decent draw and they can still podium. I am liking the changes more and more tbh, think those who were playing them just for the win will drop off (for the latest top end army, (prob free people)), and leave the rest of us who are playing because we like them as an army. (I like playing stuff that is not seen that often). Gary's army was good, if you can roll 3 on d3 its still the same tbh, he wasn't really stacking khemists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikester1487 Posted August 28, 2017 Share Posted August 28, 2017 6 minutes ago, Nico said: 30 Longbeards and a Runelord seems a reasonable ally choice. 20 vulkites with an auric runesmiter for that burrow combo looks to be a lot of fun as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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