Lets Chat Wanderers / Wood Elves compendium

[Origin]

@WABBIT hasn't there been some significant nerfs to key compendium units?

If older warscroll are allowed how are we meant to manage an evolving rule set that takes key abusive units out of the game?

I regret the loss but I see the need for it. 

[Origin]

On the subject of compendium scrolls, I don't mind the look of Treekin at 100 points. Not a bad little buy. 

Or just go mental with 400 points of old waywatchers. Lack buffs but still pretty good output. 

Although I have no idea why the now named avatar of the hunt is 380 points... With 8 wounds and a 4+

[WABBIT]

1 hour ago, Aezeal said:

There are no 20 17 points values on the old warscrolls so use in matched play seems hard. And I only do matched play.

Yes they all have points values in the GHB 2017 we covered this earlier as well. The models have not disappeared only the wanderer keyword was removed in the 2017 Compendium warscrolls. The 2015 compendium scrolls still have wanderer keyword. The FAQ and 2017 GHB say use the latest points for the warscrolls regardless of which you use i.e. 2015 or 2017 warscrolls.

[WABBIT]

1 hour ago, Origin said:

@WABBIT hasn't there been some significant nerfs to key compendium units?

If older warscroll are allowed how are we meant to manage an evolving rule set that takes key abusive units out of the game?

I regret the loss but I see the need for it. 

That is for tournaments sure but it doesn't stop the vast majority of us playing older models and warscrolls in any other set up. Compendium armies are already very weak so if your opponents only use the newer armies and want to make it even harder for compendium players to compete they can insist on using the latest compendium 2017 warscrolls and you can refuse to play them if they do. Winning every game very easily become very dull very fast and just puts off your opponents from playing AoS so why punish compendium list players further like this? I am horrified by the way GW are using players to force other players not to use models they have spent hundreds of pounds and hours on. It's completely wrong and we should put the word out older scrolls are still useable and petition event organisers not to exclude people with older armies just because GW want to force us to buy more new stuff. We don't all have hundreds of pounds to spend on models or hundreds of hours to paint them all. Its taken me years to paint my wood elves and i'm still not finished.

I understand the game has to evolve but older models will naturally be replaced over time, there is no need to set a hard time limit as many models they are squeezing out aren't even that old or are conversions using newer models -for example LOTR eagle riders.

EDIT: It's all very well banning models from the game but the least GW could do is replace them at the same time with newer models and warscrolls to compensate us. Just nerfing scrolls into oblivion is lazy and irresponsible approach to the game. It favours only the golden children. GW need to learn everyone except the parents hates a favourite child. I mean Storm cast are great but they get into everything. They even polluted my Sylvaneth book, Stole the High Elf color scheme and grabbed most of the Aelf like abilities and units for themselves. Bah...Just remember Matched play is a framework for tournaments to use and is not designed specifically for friendly/casual play. It's a useful framework to base your open play games around but slavish adherence to Matched play rules will disappoint many hobbyists if they can't use their awesome models. 

[WABBIT]

1 hour ago, Origin said:

On the subject of compendium scrolls, I don't mind the look of Treekin at 100 points. Not a bad little buy. 

Or just go mental with 400 points of old waywatchers. Lack buffs but still pretty good output. 

Although I have no idea why the now named avatar of the hunt is 380 points... With 8 wounds and a 4+

Treekin are great i've used them a few times and they always do well for 100pts they are perfect.

The old Waywatchers are in units of 5 BTW even better for 80pts

Avatar of the hunt should be 260 at most. Drycha is way better at 280.

[WABBIT]

On 9/12/2017 at 6:20 PM, Yeled said:

 

@Aezeal 2017 Official matched play points for compendium warscrolls below: This includes 2015 warscrolls.

[Siegfried VII]

The New Compendium replaces the old as far as matched play is concerned so using anything old is a big no no for me. The game is evolving and we must move forwards. 

Personally I believe it was about time regarding the compendium, especially regarding long dead characters that have no place in the new setting...

[WABBIT]

17 minutes ago, Siegfried VII said:

The New Compendium replaces the old as far as matched play is concerned so using anything old is a big no no for me. The game is evolving and we must move forwards. 

Personally I believe it was about time regarding the compendium, especially regarding long dead characters that have no place in the new setting...

It's still no reason to ban them. Old heroes have new names now so there is no reason not to play them. Its personal choice at the end of the day but if you refuse it means not getting a game because someone can't field a competitive army and it's a bit sad to lose out like that. 

[tea_wild_owl]

4 hours ago, WABBIT said:

Yes they all have points values in the GHB 2017 we covered this earlier as well. The models have not disappeared only the wanderer keyword was removed in the 2017 Compendium warscrolls. The 2015 compendium scrolls still have wanderer keyword. The FAQ and 2017 GHB say use the latest points for the warscrolls regardless of which you use i.e. 2015 or 2017 warscrolls.

so, from this point of view it would still be legal to play KO grundstock thunderers all equipped with 36" mortars? because, there is still an old warscroll with different rules?

[Siegfried VII]

1 hour ago, WABBIT said:

It's still no reason to ban them. Old heroes have new names now so there is no reason not to play them. Its personal choice at the end of the day but if you refuse it means not getting a game because someone can't field a competitive army and it's a bit sad to lose out like that. 

I do not believe that Wanderers can only be competitive using old compendium units myself.

I think that with the new allegiance abilities they can really shine if used properly. Imagine that not long ago I sold almost all of my "Wood Elf" models, but with these new cool allegiance abilities I'm thinking of buying again some models and create a new army. I still own 20 Sisters of the Watch and yesterday I ordered from the site 4 Waywatcher heroes and a Nomad Prince. Paired with a Dragonlord still in the sprues and a few boxes of Glade Guard I can make a solid first list...

[WABBIT]

1 minute ago, Siegfried VII said:

I do not believe that Wanderers can only be competitive using old compendium units myself.

I think that with the new allegiance abilities they can really shine if used properly. Imagine that not long ago I sold almost all of my "Wood Elf" models, but with these new cool allegiance abilities I'm thinking of buying again some models and create a new army. I still own 20 Sisters of the Watch and yesterday I ordered from the site 4 Waywatcher heroes and a Nomad Prince. Paired with a Dragonlord still in the sprues and a few boxes of Glade Guard I can make a solid first list...

Yeah wanderers got some fun allegiance abilities that can be quite powerful in the right situation but they still really struggle in objective based matches which AoS is all about. As many bat reps here testify wood elves/wanderers can be killy (especially if you DON'T go wanderer allegiance and use Order instead) but they don't win games due to poor objective grabbing and holding ability. With compendium units they have a better chance as they include units like the dragon and eagle lord riders who have some punch and durability. However I wouldn't use the Realm wanderers teleport with the Glade Dragon that seems wrong to do so. 

The main point around compendium units is its being able to use them the way we want to more than making wanderers competitive. I have the models, I painted them diligently and I've barely used many of them so I want to field them. GW have stated we can use them in the FAQ which is great. It's just a shame we have to have a conversation about it beforehand.

[Siegfried VII]

9 minutes ago, WABBIT said:

Yeah wanderers got some fun allegiance abilities that can be quite powerful in the right situation but they still really struggle in objective based matches which AoS is all about. As many bat reps here testify wood elves/wanderers can be killy (especially if you DON'T go wanderer allegiance and use Order instead) but they don't win games due to poor objective grabbing and holding ability. With compendium units they have a better chance as they include units like the dragon and eagle lord riders who have some punch and durability. However I wouldn't use the Realm wanderers teleport with the Glade Dragon that seems wrong to do so. 

The main point around compendium units is its being able to use them the way we want to more than making wanderers competitive. I have the models, I painted them diligently and I've barely used many of them so I want to field them. GW have stated we can use them in the FAQ which is great. It's just a shame we have to have a conversation about it beforehand.

I believe that the Eternal Guard can be very good at objective grabbing as they are chep and if you Horde them up they are imo a steal for 210pts. The Glade Lord on Forest Dragon and the Glade Lord on Eagle do not add much to objective grabbing as they are single models. Regarding the Glade Lord on Forest Dragon, you can use the Dragonlord stats and use the model just fine. Also have in mind that the new allegiance abilities were included rules-wise with the new compendium in mind and the Wandrers roster from the Grand Alliance Order book, so using models from the old compendium may result in some unbalanced combos.

My other issue is also that the new players must have equal chances in matched play without having to buy models from e-bay etc...  

Regarding the faq you mention, could you please which faq you refer to? Because in the General's Handbook 2017 faq there is no such mention that you can use the old compendium in matched play.

[Aezeal]

5 hours ago, WABBIT said:

Yes they all have points values in the GHB 2017 we covered this earlier as well. The models have not disappeared only the wanderer keyword was removed in the 2017 Compendium warscrolls. The 2015 compendium scrolls still have wanderer keyword. The FAQ and 2017 GHB say use the latest points for the warscrolls regardless of which you use i.e. 2015 or 2017 warscrolls.

 

4 hours ago, WABBIT said:

@Aezeal 2017 Official matched play points for compendium warscrolls below: This includes 2015 warscrolls.

Well I'd say those are 2017 points for 2017 warscrolls.

 

39 minutes ago, Siegfried VII said:

I believe that the Eternal Guard can be very good at objective grabbing as they are chep and if you Horde them up they are imo a steal for 210pts.

Why horde them, I mean there are radon but they don't become better, MSU they work well too I'd say. In cover they are awesome out cover not so much.

I agree with the rest of your post.

[WABBIT]

Just now, Aezeal said:

 

Well I'd say those are 2017 points for 2017 warscrolls.

You can say that but the FAQ covers the point. It's further back in this thread in one of tidings post somewhere I haven't got access to check the FAQ right now. 

Eternal guard are terrible at taking objectives and they need a turn to buff themselves up with forest of boughs, require cover to get a decent save and a shield spell and they aren't heroes so they cannot claim some objectives in some battle plans.  They need extra investment in support to be any good defensively.  Glade lord in dragon doesn't need any help or cover and is good on offense, defence and is a hero for objective grabbing. It's also very fast, flys and if using the old warscroll has an even better command ability than the nomad. Granted it loses out to hordes in some plans though. It offers something diffeeent from the one trick pony shooting army we have now. 

[Tidings]

1 hour ago, Siegfried VII said:

I do not believe that Wanderers can only be competitive using old compendium units myself.

I think that with the new allegiance abilities they can really shine if used properly. Imagine that not long ago I sold almost all of my "Wood Elf" models, but with these new cool allegiance abilities I'm thinking of buying again some models and create a new army. I still own 20 Sisters of the Watch and yesterday I ordered from the site 4 Waywatcher heroes and a Nomad Prince. Paired with a Dragonlord still in the sprues and a few boxes of Glade Guard I can make a solid first list...

They can be "competitive" against casual lists, but they can't even remotely compete against the tier 1 armies that place high in tournaments. I'm a fairly competitive gamer, so in all my experimenting to make the most tournament-viable list possible with GHB 2017, I've found that mixed order is far superior to pure Wanderers. The allegiance ability is great fun and in a pure kill scenario it is almost an auto-win, but it's very hard to actually play objectives with it. On top of that, it's very much a one-trick-pony playstyle and is pretty easily countered. Finally, a good chunk of the very small roster we have (since the keyword culling + original removal of Sylvaneth) relies on standing still to be used to full effectiveness. This obviously doesn't synergize at all with the Wanderer allegiance abilities.  

 

1 hour ago, Siegfried VII said:

I believe that the Eternal Guard can be very good at objective grabbing as they are chep and if you Horde them up they are imo a steal for 210pts.

Also have in mind that the new allegiance abilities were included rules-wise with the new compendium in mind and the Wandrers roster from the Grand Alliance Order book, so using models from the old compendium may result in some unbalanced combos.

My other issue is also that the new players must have equal chances in matched play without having to buy models from e-bay etc...  

Regarding the faq you mention, could you please which faq you refer to? Because in the General's Handbook 2017 faq there is no such mention that you can use the old compendium in matched play.

Except there's no point buying 30 of them because to really make them effective you need them in cover, and fitting 30 in cover is usually difficult. This obviously depends on your local store and the terrain you use, but at tournaments I have a hard enough time with 20 man units. 

Regarding ebay and balancing, c'mon lol. The compendium models are not even remotely equal to new releases. They have worse stats and worse/less/no abilities for the same price. There might be a few exceptions, but I can't think of any off the top of my head. Example of what I'm talking about, @WABBIT pointed out the points of Orion vs Drycha. Drycha is way better but costs quite a bit less. 

The question in the FAQ is easy to find... it's on page 7 in the section "Warscrolls and Warscroll Battalions". I'll copy and paste it here though:

Q: If I have two different warscrolls for the same unit, can I choose which to use, or must I use the most recently published version?

A: You can choose which warscroll to use, but it may be more convenient for your opponent if you use the most recently published version, especially if the earlier version is no longer readily available.

 

30 minutes ago, Aezeal said:

Well I'd say those are 2017 points for 2017 warscrolls.

The points are updated, and the FAQ (posted above) states you have the option of using either Warscroll. They don't address the points there, but in the pitched profile section you must use the most recent points. So you can clearly pay the up to date points and choose the warscroll - as long as your opponent is fine with that. In a tournament I'm sure they will only allow the most recent warscrolls which makes sense. Some models have technically different warscrolls, like Orion, King in the Woods is now Avatar of the Hunt, so there are no updated points for his old warscroll. 

In either case the points are basically irrelevant, since by and large the only thing they did was remove the Wanderer keyword, or make the unit's abilities worse. So there's no need to act like it's cheating or abusing the rules lol. It's just someone who want's to play with the models they paid money for and spent time painting, nothing wrong with that. 

[Tidings]

TLDR:  GHB 2017 nerfed Wanderers by removing a huge portion of their roster, while giving allegiance abilities that don't synergize with the abilities of many of the remaining units to choose from.

If someone wants to play with old compendium models, and wants to use the old warscroll, just let them. They aren't cheating, the FAQ specifically says the can if you're cool with it. The units aren't broken/OP or anything like that, so get off the high horse and just be friendly. In a tournament they can't use those models, but not every match is a ****** tournament lol. 

[Siegfried VII]

The part of the faq you quote is from the general rules faq and is for all types of play. In the match play the new publications take precedence.

Now if you ask your opponent and he accepts by all means do what you like.

The Eternal Guard does not need cover to be good. You only get the reroll of 2s and a +1 to the Bravery from the banner if I remember correctly.

They can be also good in units of 10 as Aezeal has said and even if you don't manage to benefit from their ability that triggers if they don't move 30 wounds for 210pts are still good and and can get objectives in my opinion.

Now I admit that I lack games with a Wanderer army but I believe they can do well in a competitive enviroment. It is just not an easy mode army.

[Paul Buckler]

Having played a few games now vs some good opponents, imo wanderers sit 2nd/3rd tier.  You aint gonna win events, but will get 2 or 3 wins out of 5, maybe 4 if the draw is really kind.  Podiums and probably top 10's are not gonna happen.  Sylvaneth/Overlords level, not up with the mixed forces or top tier tzeentch.

EG I have found good, but they won't kill stuff alone.  You can bum rush objectives with them, potentially tying up the oppponent and then shoot them off.  10 is best for mortal bounce back tactic as they are easy to get into cover, 20 just about, 30 no chance unless you really luck out with terrain.

You have to really plan ahead with them and get into place at least a turn before.  You need luck with double turns as well.  A good player will stretch their opponent, but they just don't have the tools to cut it top end.  Personally this is a great army for me as I go to events aiming for 2/3 wins and they should fit the bill nicely.

Compendium wise, I have moved on.  For fun games with mates go for it, but they are really in the past now for me,(I say this as someone with prob £6-7000 of models sitting on shelves that won't get used in AOS currently).

 

 

[Tidings]

48 minutes ago, Siegfried VII said:

The part of the faq you quote is from the general rules faq and is for all types of play. In the match play the new publications take precedence.

Now if you ask your opponent and he accepts by all means do what you like.

The Eternal Guard does not need cover to be good. You only get the reroll of 2s and a +1 to the Bravery from the banner if I remember correctly.

They can be also good in units of 10 as Aezeal has said and even if you don't manage to benefit from their ability that triggers if they don't move 30 wounds for 210pts are still good and and can get objectives in my opinion.

Now I admit that I lack games with a Wanderer army but I believe they can do well in a competitive enviroment. It is just not an easy mode army.

Yeah, that's my point. For friendly games it's not at all unbalanced, it's just GW trying to force people away from old kits. I don't play with old compendium warscrolls since I am constantly trying to make tournament-viable lists, but I'm happy to let my opponent use old warscrolls to maintain keywords if they want!

Don't get me wrong, EG are the best unit we have in our army, outside of our two fantastic heroes (Nomad Prince and Waywatcher). For what they are capable of, they are insanely efficient in terms of their cost. However, it's a bit of a "better on paper" case. In most games it's very hard to use them to full effectiveness. Very often you have to move them, and when that happens they are barely worth the 80 points you paid for them. 

They don't need cover to be used well. But to be used to full effect, they require cover. Having Fortress of Boughs active in cover makes your save 3+, meaning 100% of your failed saves can be rerolled (against rend -0). Compare that to no cover, where your save is worse, and only 33% of your failed saves can be rerolled. That's a huge difference in model retention. Combine that with slightly lower bravery, and battleshock is more of an issue, though granted this is a small difference. 

Like @Paul Buckler said, the main problem we have is a lack of tools. We have no behemoths, no heroes that move more than 6" (instantly making Duality of Death an almost guaranteed loss), slightly over-costed archers (compare Glade Guard to High Elf archers and Sisters to other elite archers), one of the least effective elite melee units (compare Wildwood Rangers to Executioners), a distinct lack of reliable tarpits (EG are very situational, our other cheap chaff options like Wardancers and hounds are gone now),  poor cavalry options, and our allegiance ability synergizes poorly with our unit abilities (Sisters of the Watch, EG, Waywatcher).

So yeah, while it's a really fun army to play, it's just can't stack up against armies that have all the things we are missing. One of the biggest things that makes something GOOD is reliability. That's the big flaw a lot of our units have - they are very situational and fragile, making them unreliable. Our teleport is good, but depending on the scenario, it can be next to useless for actually winning objectives. So Wanderers are a fun finesse army but that's about it. 

Sorry for the walls of texts, I have nothing to do at work today! 

[WABBIT]

1 hour ago, Siegfried VII said:

The part of the faq you quote is from the general rules faq and is for all types of play. In the match play the new publications take precedence.

Now if you ask your opponent and he accepts by all means do what you like.

The Eternal Guard does not need cover to be good. You only get the reroll of 2s and a +1 to the Bravery from the banner if I remember correctly.

They can be also good in units of 10 as Aezeal has said and even if you don't manage to benefit from their ability that triggers if they don't move 30 wounds for 210pts are still good and and can get objectives in my opinion.

Now I admit that I lack games with a Wanderer army but I believe they can do well in a competitive enviroment. It is just not an easy mode army.

All types of play includes match play. 

[Aezeal]

Tidings: Have you tried a wanderer allegiance list with 400 points of allies that does some of the stuff we don't do well (which is a bunch of stuff... basicly everything but teleporting and shooting at medium range.. but i'm thinking about killing in melee and surviving in melee).

I mean WABBIT likes the forest dragon but an allied order draconis dragon could do the same, or a TL/TLA/durthu/Drycha (Drycha also fits a shooting heavy lists and clears objectives of annoying 30 man units). Hunters could do the same and would be my prime pick if 2 untis fit in 400 points.. which ofc... they don't.

Phoenix seems decent but unsupported isn't THAT survivable (not to mention that I REALLY liked dropping the spell weaver for a waywatcher which ofc is a no go if you want the batallion). I'm still not sure if the batallion is worth the tax you have to pay (2 units of cavalry, spellweaver) AND the points for the batallion itself).

[Tidings]

@Aezeal Yeah I've tried a few things. I've tried Treelord, Drycha, Hunters, and Liberators. They were all nice to have, but they didn't really "click" with the army. Treelord was nice for just being a threat that could basically soak a scary charge. Drycha was used exactly as you said - flying missile to clear stuff off an objective and be scary. Scythe Hunters and Liberators were probably the best though, since they were able to just walk onto an objective and do pretty well on their own. The bigger stuff just died fast. And that has a value all on it's own, but they didn't really do anything that my elves couldn't do better (die) lol. The Hunters seemed the best - they are tough as nails and kill stuff gud. Sure on some scenarios they'll lose an objective to 20 models, but with a little archer support, they are fantastic at killing entire units on their own. In my game they took one of the neutral objectives and sat on it. Opponent tried to kill them and take the objective with a unit but the Hunters just killed them and kept sitting there. Only problem is they are expensive and slow. 

Haven't tried the Phoenix as an ally yet - only played it in a mixed Order list. 

I agree the regular dragon is probably better than the forest dragon, though only by a tiny bit. It's a null point though since we can't take the Forest Dragon in a tourny-legal list anyways. 

[Tidings]

I'll just add that I don't go for taking the entire 400 points allowance, I just grab the one thing I want to add. The whole teleporting really only works well if you are keeping your army together, so there isn't a ton of value in watering your army down with allies.

I haven't had much success teleporting small parts of my army different places, since then they are kind of stuck on different board edges. Seems to be better to take 1700ish points to kill 500ish points each turn. 

[Siegfried VII]

The Dragonlord is a great choice as he has the movement to keep up with the army and has very good offensive stats. My only concern is that he won't be general so he won't be able to use his command ability which is great for him and makes him a true killing machine...

[WABBIT]

@Aezeal It's not all about the stats for me, it's the models too. I want a return on the time I've invested into painting them. I don't have lots of spare time to paint or play but when I do I prefer relaxed fun games where both sides have a good crack at the win. Matched play uses points which are a good mechanic for balancing armies to some extent but it's clear some armies are far superior to others and it needn't be that way. AoS is just too one sided in many match ups from what I have seen and experienced and it's put good friends of mine off playing the game. It's not that obvious at events because people don't take sub par armies to events. I'm still trying to coax my friends back but even the new GHB isn't a big enough lure. Killing off compendium units just made them even less interested.  I think we need a "Best before" date on our models and warscrolls now so we know how long they will last before we make the investment of time and money on them.  Keep in fridge and use within 3 days of assembly. 

 

 Getting the balance right between a freedom of choice and a framework of rules is tricky and GW are trying and listening. It's us the players who decide the way we play and if you want to enforce strict RAW rules in your friendly games be careful is all I can say. My preference is to use match plays rules as a guide to a fun game and not as the law to achieve  uneven easy victorys! If your opponents don't have the same philosophy it can ruin a good game and turn people off. So what if a wanderer general uses compendium units, they are still sub par but they might give you a better challenge and therefore a more enjoyable game. The toughest victories are the most savoured.

I Just looked at darkling covens-  All 5 units are battle line, 2 of them are elite units (but only if coven alliegence). Wanderers have 6 units but only one is battleline, 2 if wanderer alliegence and another 2 elite units can be battle line but not at the same time and only if we take a specific hero who is sub par. Why restrict wanderers this way? That's not encouraging us to use those heroes it's handicapping our army. Wanderers are already worse than dark elves why rub it in? 

I don't like waystone pathfinders because the requirements are far too high and it forces us to play in a big blob that bounces about the board edge. It's just a rubbish way to play woodelves in my option regardless of what the rules are. It's looks awful on the table and it appears to be the only trick we have. What happened to elite skirmishers spread across the board? If wanderers are a guerilla army the last thing you would do is make a big blob. Come GW you can do way better than that. I know you can, I dare you!