Planar Posted March 25, 2017 Share Posted March 25, 2017 Great question. I think you should first ask yourself what is more important to you. Your friendship with that person or the game and your integrity as a player (if such a thing exists). I had a similar experience playing against the compedium armies of my best friends and continuously destroying them with my Stonehorn. After a while I felt it was lame to use a weapon they clearly had no answer against. So I stopped using it alltogether. It is irrelevant if they are competent generals or not. They are my friends and they were missing their enjoyment on the game whenever I was using the stonehorn. Where is the fun in that? For me its a matter of approach to the game. For example I was surprised to read the advice " to remind him the special rules he always forgets". I mean wtf man? You play with a FRIEND who keeps loosing and don't already do that? My advice is that if you want to keep that guy as a friend loose a few times to his orcs or at least give him some good fights he can draw some satisfaction from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spiky Norman Posted March 25, 2017 Share Posted March 25, 2017 7 hours ago, Urbanus said: [...]. Im an optimiser at heart. [...] he "hates painting the same model 30 times" (can hardly blame him) leading to small easily killed units... That there is the problem. You and your friend are not approaching the game from the same angle. I think you have to find a compromise between you and your friend, so you can both have fun (and stay friends) :-) 8 hours ago, Urbanus said: Be honest guys: Are Bloodbound a top tier army and mixed greenskins underpowered? Im having a hard time seeing it clearly for myself. Yes, there is a difference in power, and you being an optimizer and he is not makes it even more apparent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrexPushups Posted March 25, 2017 Share Posted March 25, 2017 Stop playing matched play games. Bring less stuff. Deoptimize your list. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teletomas Posted March 25, 2017 Share Posted March 25, 2017 If he doesn't want to paint larger units, why not try smaller narrative games instead where it might not matter so much? Also, if you're playing Khorne, I'd suggest him to look at 2-4 spear chukkas. Not a lot of models to paint, and they work really well against heroes and non range armies... They reroll failed hits when in groups, hit on 3 and wound on 3 (when targeting heroes) and dish out d3 on rend -2. They're also called HERO KILLERS. Question is whether you'd want that against you, though as the better general I think it should be fun for you to find a way around units that are good against you. Also being a good friend, I think you should definitely show him how to lay the hurt on your list. (And remind him of all those special rules - no secrets in a friendly game).. Also you should both find some more people to play against (also a three way game could be fun)! This way he might also learn something from seeing how another player would tackle your army and more... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fastbear Posted March 25, 2017 Share Posted March 25, 2017 Just make him play a thundertusk or 2 and you're toast as bloodbound [emoji14] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urbanus Posted March 25, 2017 Author Share Posted March 25, 2017 Hello everybody! Thats a lot of great answers to wake up to! And a lot of different directions to take. I will try to answer everybody here. An important factor is his limited models. He only just has 1100 if he plays everything. This means he has to play the somewhat sucky units or we have to go down to playing 700 points! This is also why I think I would lose if we swithched armies. The chariot, the warchanter, why God why? I will however switch armies with him since he himself suggested it. We will see how that pans out. The problem so far has been that we are both playing close combat and I win those everytime. But the good news is that two things seem to sink in last game: A: He is never going "out-synergise" me. Even with his +1A warlord and the banner it will just never happen. B: After being a bit fedup with the complaining I looked him dead in the eye and calmly said "You always let me bunch up. I have bunched up every single game we have played and. I have won every one". That also seemed to make him think. To however said the problem is in your different aproaches to the game: You are completely right! He is all like "This is a beautiful model Im going to paint it and then play with it" and Im like "Daaaaaamn those are some sweet sweet rules that the unit for me" But story time: Back in 8th I played Vampire Counts and he played Orc and Goblins (his one true love). I used the exact same tactic 30 games in a row and won everytime. But slowly by chance and trial and error he found the good units in his armybook and the games actually became challanging. The problem is this took 4 years! I dont think he has the patience to do that again. I hope I got everyone! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urbanus Posted March 25, 2017 Author Share Posted March 25, 2017 Oh there was one: He has invested in a spear chukka! Will be interesting to see if it will make an impact. I always run double Bloodsecrators so I have a backup. But it is true that my army would be incredebly bad against shooting. My entire tactic depend upon 3 characters. That 15 wounds! I do have a skaven army comming up but.... Its a monster. I have truely created a monster. Its skyre based shooting list and Im afraid its just gonna wipe him I could build a clanrat list from the stuff I have? Give my opponent a break from bloodbound Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teletomas Posted March 25, 2017 Share Posted March 25, 2017 23 minutes ago, Urbanus said: Oh there was one: He has invested in a spear chukka! Will be interesting to see if it will make an impact. I always run double Bloodsecrators so I have a backup. But it is true that my army would be incredebly bad against shooting. My entire tactic depend upon 3 characters. That 15 wounds! I do have a skaven army comming up but.... Its a monster. I have truely created a monster. Its skyre based shooting list and Im afraid its just gonna wipe him I could build a clanrat list from the stuff I have? Give my opponent a break from bloodbound Okay, first things first; Tell him to invest in one more spear chukka. A single chukka won't do anything really. They only reroll failed hit rolls when you field them in twos or more, inside of 3" of each others crews. One spear chukka is throwing pts out of the window, it won't be effective enough to do anything. Once again you have to look him calmly in the eye and say "No, that won't do, a warbozz always takes two spear chukkas minimum". This way he won't know how much he's going to love that machine (in numbers!) when he has his one machine up and running against you, he'll just decide its another ****** unit and give up on it- no good. d3 isn't really that much when you need to take out opponents heroes quickly. 4xd3 is fun. 2xd3 is less fun but still fun. And again, not a lot of units to paint. Yikes! clan Skyre. Maybe an idea to use it in games against another opponent? Or better yet, play Khorne and let him try out the clan once in a while, to get a feel for another army? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chord Posted March 25, 2017 Share Posted March 25, 2017 try not doing matched play but setting up narrative matches using the narrative battle plans Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spiky Norman Posted March 25, 2017 Share Posted March 25, 2017 @Urbanus My point was that you need to change your approach to the game with your friend. Both of you need to come to a compromise between what types of games you wish to play, which means both of you have to give a little. Maybe find other players who also like to play with a very power-optimised focus and play more balanced/fun/narrative games with your friend? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urbanus Posted March 25, 2017 Author Share Posted March 25, 2017 6 minutes ago, Spiky Norman said: @Urbanus My point was that you need to change your approach to the game with your friend. Both of you need to come to a compromise between what types of games you wish to play, which means both of you have to give a little. Maybe find other players who also like to play with a very power-optimised focus and play more balanced/fun/narrative games with your friend? That a good point. I could meet him in the middle so to speak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Volund Posted March 25, 2017 Share Posted March 25, 2017 Have you considered finding or crafting scenarios that play to his stregnths? I play Dispossessed and my regular friend plays bloodbound. Whenever we feel like one of us has won "too much" we try to do a scenario that lets me defend a point or try to capture a point (cause Dispossessed are much better at holding than going places). I am not sure what strengths go with his mixed greenskin, but at the very least you could look for a scenario that forced you to spread out. It is also pretty important to play games that require points based victory conditions. The last few games I have won, I only had like 2 or 3 models left, but scored more objectives. In our games we also dont play with tabling = auto win because we dont like the motivation it gives to comepletely ignore whatever scenario we used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galas Posted March 25, 2017 Share Posted March 25, 2017 Go play Hinterlands with him. Bring another friend and use the rules for a GM being you that. Believe me. Its ultra fun. Bonuts points if you change your voice talking as the enemys or narrating the story to bring the sweet inmersion to the table. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urbanus Posted March 25, 2017 Author Share Posted March 25, 2017 I dont think narative gaming is for him. He will think its too complex. He thought the Escalation scenario was complex. Managed to take down his Rogue idol in two turns losing only two wrathmongers because he wasnt really able to grasp the deployment rules... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galas Posted March 25, 2017 Share Posted March 25, 2017 Believe me, Hinterlands its ultra simple, fast and fun! But if he don't like competitive game, don't like to paint much, and don't like narrative games... what he likes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urbanus Posted March 25, 2017 Author Share Posted March 25, 2017 6 minutes ago, Galas said: Believe me, Hinterlands its ultra simple, fast and fun! But if he don't like competitive game, don't like to paint much, and don't like narrative games... what he likes? Painting and playing ONE of every warscroll in the faction! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urbanus Posted March 26, 2017 Author Share Posted March 26, 2017 Just a smal Update to all you helpfull people: My guy just won his first game in an ongoing campaign at the local GW! Winning a solid victory against Khorne Deamons. Hopefully this will help cheer him up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sleboda Posted March 26, 2017 Share Posted March 26, 2017 On 3/24/2017 at 6:49 PM, Allornone said: Play with a handicap. Like 1500 points vs 2000. Sell it to him as a way to compensate for overcosted/undercosted units. No. I respect that people are just trying to help, but this sort of approach can easily backfire. Whether you mean to or not, when you play down to your opponent instead of doing your best, it says to him "you are so bad that I can beat you without really trying, and if you ever do win, it's really only because I let you. " It's a really bad message to send. Instead, teach him! Show him why the things you do work so well. Educate, don't dumb down. Also, if you are playing Warhammer (6x4, 2 hills, 2 woods, 2 buildings, vps for kills to determine winner), stop. Play AoS (crazy lots of huge terrain, BATTLEPLANS where you win in ways orher than killing, etc.). It's amazing how much the game improves when you don't just line up and beat on each other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teletomas Posted March 26, 2017 Share Posted March 26, 2017 3 hours ago, Urbanus said: Just a smal Update to all you helpfull people: My guy just won his first game in an ongoing campaign at the local GW! Winning a solid victory against Khorne Deamons. Hopefully this will help cheer him up whaaaat. I was there.... at next table - ! He was the guy with totally random destruction list! Some ardboys a grot shaman and wolf rider orcs. Should have told him about the spear chukkas. Nice with a win to warm his heart up! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urbanus Posted March 26, 2017 Author Share Posted March 26, 2017 6 minutes ago, Teletomas said: whaaaat. I was there.... at next table - ! He was the guy with totally random destruction list! Some ardboys a grot shaman and wolf rider orcs. Should have told him about the spear chukkas. Nice with a win to warm his heart up! Ses Sssschhh! He doesnt know about this forum! But yes it is the most random list ever Hope you won your game Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teletomas Posted March 26, 2017 Share Posted March 26, 2017 1 minute ago, Urbanus said: Sssschhh! He doesnt know about this forum! But yes it is the most random list ever Hope you won your game The internet demands total discretion. And that's how it will be- Also considering everything written and how that'd go, I think thats probably the best way forward! Out the window with the extra chukkas advice! Anyway it was my son playing today against other underlings, I was just helping the staff to keep all those crazy juniors in order. Didn't even get any painting done. Recruiting for the emperor.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teletomas Posted March 26, 2017 Share Posted March 26, 2017 11 minutes ago, Urbanus said: Sssschhh! He doesnt know about this forum! But yes it is the most random list ever Hope you won your game Crazy random. Couldnt' quite understand the mechanics of the list to say the least, but next time I looked he'd won! Yay. Knowing about this thread in here, I'm rooting for him! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darren2607 Posted March 26, 2017 Share Posted March 26, 2017 If you've got a more optimised list than him, you are going to be getting more bang for your buck and that's why it will feel unfair and undercosted to him. If he's not going to get into optimising and competitiveness, then you should just take a softer list - know your audience and tone it down a bit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allornone Posted March 26, 2017 Share Posted March 26, 2017 2 hours ago, Sleboda said: No. I respect that people are just trying to help, but this sort of approach can easily backfire. Whether you mean to or not, when you play down to your opponent instead of doing your best, it says to him "you are so bad that I can beat you without really trying, and if you ever do win, it's really only because I let you. " It's a really bad message to send. Maybe it's not very nice, but the reality is that there are lots of times when the skill disparity between two players is undeniable, and the worse player can't or won't become better. In that case either the better player limits himself one way or another (by toning down his list, by using an handicap, by trying fluffier games, there are lots of possibilities here) in order to have a close game or you are never going to have one. A bad player with an unoptimized list against a good one with an optimized list is going to end the same way indipendently from how much terrain there is on the table or what is the battleplan (unless these things heavy favour him, in which case see above). I'm the first one to say that if it's possible to teach one opponent to become better you should do that. But I'm also the first to say that there are lots of cases in which it's not possible. People have different aptitudes for different things, and often teaching can only diminuish the difference, not outright erase it. To which you must also count that this is also an hobby, so not optimizing is a legitimate choice for lot of players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pannben Posted March 26, 2017 Share Posted March 26, 2017 I like switching armies but I want to build my own list with the models he have and if you are good friends give him something painted for his next birthday Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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