Ardboyz Query

[Fungrim]

Apologies for dredging this topic back up. Already had a look through some threads from last year covering a lot of discussion on how Ardboyz work. They're obviously a complicated unit not only because of the mixed weapons capability, but also how the shields allocate wounds.

I couldn't find clear-cut answers on the following questions anywhere, so any advice would be much appreciated!

1) Am I right in thinking that only as much damage can be applied to a single model with a shield, depending on it's wound count? So if I have 5 shield-boyz left, full health, and my unit takes 20 damage, only 10 of that damage can get the 6+? As opposed to, as long as there's a shield-boy alive, he can keep taking the damage, roll-by-roll?

2) Something that only just randomly dawned on me, and I can't seem to find an answer anywhere. Another problem with the mixed weapons capability that may well have been answered! Where as normally if your unit of 2-wound models takes say 6 wounds, all saves failed, you'd take off 3 models from the flanks or the rear (where appropriate), maintaining the front line &/or combat. In the instance of the ardboyz, and you've got a row of 2-handers or double-weapons at the front, and a row of shield-boyz at the back, is it technically legal to take the damage onto the back models, despite the fact the front line (who may be in direct combat), don't have shields? Do the shields need to be the ones in base-to-base to be able to take the damage?

Ta in advance!

[Sangfroid]

Very simply 

1) yes keep rolling wound by wound until no shield models are left then apply all the remaining damage to the rest of the unit 

2) if you roll the dice for using the shield ability then a shield dude needs to take the damage irrespective of his position in relation to the enemy models 

[Fungrim]

50 minutes ago, Sangfroid said:

Very simply 

1) yes keep rolling wound by wound until no shield models are left then apply all the remaining damage to the rest of the unit 

2) if you roll the dice for using the shield ability then a shield dude needs to take the damage irrespective of his position in relation to the enemy models 

Thanks Sangfroid! 

Both yours answers as above are the way I assumed, and also the way I've been playing it.

Question 2) is what really worried me though, as I could imagine some opponents arguing that as the models are equipped differently, it matters where they are in relation to the combat

[Chris Tomlin]

29 minutes ago, Fungrim said:

Question 2) is what really worried me though, as I could imagine some opponents arguing that as the models are equipped differently, it matters where they are in relation to the combat

It's worth noting that you are always free to choose which model(s) you remove from a unit as casualties. The only stipulation is that once you start allocating wounds to a model you need to keep going until they die, so make sure you mark up spare wounds on the correct Ardboys/Brutes!

Regarding Question 1, It's actually really clunky rules writing IMO. I think you could either keep rolling a dice at a time until you run out of shields or just do as you suggested in your original post. I think the latter method is quicker/simpler, but you will get more mileage from the first.

[Fungrim]

32 minutes ago, Chris Tomlin said:

It's worth noting that you are always free to choose which model(s) you remove from a unit as casualties. The only stipulation is that once you start allocating wounds to a model you need to keep going until they die, so make sure you mark up spare wounds on the correct Ardboys/Brutes!

Regarding Question 1, It's actually really clunky rules writing IMO. I think you could either keep rolling a dice at a time until you run out of shields or just do as you suggested in your original post. I think the latter method is quicker/simpler, but you will get more mileage from the first.

I quite like the visual of a front line of Ardboyz throwing out their attacks then quickly diving backwards and letting the shields take all the damage!

Spartan precision...

Aye agreed on allocation. I try to make things as streamlined as possible to be honest. I've already built and basecoated 10 dual-weapon and 10 shieldboyz anyway, so I'm using them either way now!

[Blueisola]

1 hour ago, Fungrim said:

I quite like the visual of a front line of Ardboyz throwing out their attacks then quickly diving backwards and letting the shields take all the damage!

Spartan precision...
 

That's quite the deft, thinking orruks ya got there!  

[Knight-Errant]

Ork battle formations - 40/120 points

Ork precision in formations - 100 points

Comparing Orks to a Spartan phalanx- Priceless

[Fungrim]

Rumour has it Sigmar saw the uniform battle genius of the ironjawz and modelled his Stormcast after them

With less phlegm

 

@Blueisola @Knight-Errant

[Fungrim]

Using this old thread so as not to clog up the topics!

 

I won't even apologise for starting this up again. Ok, I'm sorry...

Ardboyz shields. 6+ against Mortals??

Went to Heat 2 at the weekend (very good, highly recommended!). I didn't actually take any shields in my 10-man Ardboyz unit, just running 10x 2HW at the moment - however there was a few more Ironjawz armies present than expected (!), and everyone seemed to have varying stances on exactly how the shields work.

 

Is there any official stance on this? Did GW ever FAQ or is it perspective of wording? Technically it says 'before allocating a wound', and indeed, a Mortal wound is in fact a wound that you allocate... but still.

I (reluctantly) bring this topic back up, as 6+ against Mortals as well, could well make me fit some shields back in.

[Soul oWar]

Shield stop mortal wounds. It doesn't make a difference between the type of wounds. Mortal wounds prevent saves, shield is not a save per say.

 

Got a question myself, how many attacks have the banner and drummer? Can they use any of the weapon setup? Could I put a shield on my Banner guy?

[Furious]

The precedent has been set: for atypical/post-armour saves, it specifies wound and/or Mortal Wound. The shield wording says wound, doesn't say Mortal Wound and therefore doesn't save against Mortal Wounds. In this game, a Mortal Wound isn't a wound. It's a Mortal Wound.

[Fungrim]

Well that's 1-1 so far... Maybe I should have made this a poll!
 

@Soul oWar I've always played the drummer/banner always gets whatever weapon you want, as long as it's modelled WYSIWYG

        - my banners with 2HW have one in their spare hand, and one on their back (drummer has both weapons in his hand, beating his drum with em!)

        - my banners with HW+Shield have the weapon in their spare hand and the shield on their back (same with drummer)

[BunkhouseBuster]

On 4/10/2017 at 9:09 AM, Furious said:

The precedent has been set: for atypical/post-armour saves, it specifies wound and/or Mortal Wound. The shield wording says wound, doesn't say Mortal Wound and therefore doesn't save against Mortal Wounds. In this game, a Mortal Wound isn't a wound. It's a Mortal Wound.

Until I just re-read the rules and FAQ, I would have argued with you.  Now I am confused.  Let's go through this one step at a time.

The Rules FAQ uses the example of Phoenix Guard, which their rule for that extra "save" specifically mentions Mortal Wounds AND regular wounds.  Which sets the precedent you mentioned.

However, the Rules themselves treat Mortal Wounds as wounds that basically ignore armor saves:

"Some attacks inflict mortal wounds.  Do not make hit, wound, or save rolls for a mortal wound - just allocate the wounds to models from the target unit as described above."

And the Ardboys warscroll says:

"Roll a dice before allocating a wound to a model with an Orruk-forged Shield.  On a roll of 6 the wound is ignored."

Also, if the Shields only work against regular wounds that allow armor saves, why not just make the Shields give the Ardboys a 3+ armor save?  The math works out the exact same except against something that has a -4 rend (and who in the Mortal Realms has that?) in which case that Shield "save" would still function.

So, by my logic, I would err on the side of the Ardboys Shields protecting from Mortal Wounds, based on the wording in the rules for Mortal Wounds and Allocation, which both are done done after normal armor saves (if any).  My thinking is this:

- Unit suffers Wound and Mortal Wounds

- Roll armor saves as normal

- Determine total damage (d3 wounds, etc)

- Allocate unsaved wounds and Mortal Wounds to models

- Roll Ardboys Shield save against all wounds (so if the one wound did 2 damage, make 2 Shield "save" rolls)

Am I the only one who see it this way?  Granted, I would like an FAQ from GW that covers this SPECIFIC instance of how the special "extra saves" work.

[roberto]

I agree with you.  Allocating wounds to models has nothing to do with the origin of those wounds.  A "wounded" model and a "mortally wounded" model are identical. 

[PC Veteran]

On 4/10/2017 at 7:09 AM, Furious said:

The precedent has been set: for atypical/post-armour saves, it specifies wound and/or Mortal Wound. The shield wording says wound, doesn't say Mortal Wound and therefore doesn't save against Mortal Wounds. In this game, a Mortal Wound isn't a wound. It's a Mortal Wound.

At some point a Mortal Wound would have to be converted to a wound. There is no Mortal Wound stat on my warscroll, only a wound stat. Mortal Wounds special rule is that they ignore to hit, to wound, and saves to cause a wound. So the shield would work on Mortal Wounds. Because it is applied after saves. Its saying. If a wound is to be applied, on a 6 it is ignored.

[Furious]

Yeah okay, I'm convinced I can see how that works. I've seen extra saves that just save against mortal wounds, so I wrongfully assumed that it worked the other way around too.

[Criti]

On 3/6/2017 at 9:51 AM, Chris Tomlin said:

It's worth noting that you are always free to choose which model(s) you remove from a unit as casualties. The only stipulation is that once you start allocating wounds to a model you need to keep going until they die, so make sure you mark up spare wounds on the correct Ardboys/Brutes!

This. 

If it helps, remember that this is meant to be a simulation of a constantly moving and swirling melee...so your back rank shield guys really aren't "standing still."  The models are only stationary because while it would be awesome for GW to sell us tiny living Orruks that actually waged war on our tabletops, it would also be very messy and also illegal thanks to the 1983 ruling by the UN that made the sale of living 25mm scale sentient beings for the sole purpose of fighting an international war crime.

 

[Fungrim]

3 hours ago, Criti said:

This. 

If it helps, remember that this is meant to be a simulation of a constantly moving and swirling melee...so your back rank shield guys really aren't "standing still."  The models are only stationary because while it would be awesome for GW to sell us tiny living Orruks that actually waged war on our tabletops, it would also be very messy and also illegal thanks to the 1983 ruling by the UN that made the sale of living 25mm scale sentient beings for the sole purpose of fighting an international war crime.

 

Damn bureaucrats