Some Sylvaneth Questions Still Needing an Answer/FAQ

[Mossback]

I've enjoyed reading the newly released FAQs, especially as it pertains to the Sylvaneth forces and Wyldwoods. It certainly clears up placement of the Wyldwoods and the ability of Branchwraiths to summon Dryads. I do, however, still have a few questions that seem unclear. If a Branchwraith is using the Roused to Wrath spell, are points needed (for matched play) to cast it? If so, it seems like a very costly spell as you might only get two new Dryads. My thinking is there would be no cost as the point overhead is already built into the Branchwraith. Please let me know your thoughts.

The same question might also apply to the Heartwood Host (warscroll from the boxed set), the Oakenbrow Wargrove, and the Heartwood Wargrove. All allow replacement of models (Dryads), with the Oakenbrow allowing a one time replacement of an entire unit of Dryads of Tree-Revenants, and the Heartwood also allowing replacement of Spite-Revenants. I don't think the FAQs really address these types of replacement, or if there is a cost associated. Alarielle kicks this up a notch with her Soul Amphorae ability to summon Dryads, Tree-Revenants, or a Treelord. Her warscroll doesn't have a use limit on this, so technically if you were extremely blessed by the Gods of Chance, you could get five additional Treelords for a roll of 6 in each of your Hero phases. I'm not looking to nerf the Sylvaneth by any means as I really like those forces, but I don't want to get in a heated argument of rules interpretations with other players or a TO.

Lastly, is Drycha really intended to be a screaming time-bomb bent on destruction of everything around her, to include herself, with the enraged Colony of Flutterflies? Yes, I could see friendly units, like Dryads, getting damage from the potential 10 mortal wounds of the attack, but would her own Flutterflies really take her out as well with perfect rolls of sixes? Drycha is rather costly to have her charge into an enemy formation to be torn to shreds by her own Flutterflies' attack. I can't imagine this is how GW intended her to be, but a rather poorly worded warscroll leaves that interpretation open. Again, any thoughts or other ideas are welcomed.

[scrubyandwells]

51 minutes ago, Mossback said:

I've enjoyed reading the newly released FAQs, especially as it pertains to the Sylvaneth forces and Wyldwoods. It certainly clears up placement of the Wyldwoods and the ability of Branchwraiths to summon Dryads. I do, however, still have a few questions that seem unclear. If a Branchwraith is using the Roused to Wrath spell, are points needed (for matched play) to cast it? If so, it seems like a very costly spell as you might only get two new Dryads. My thinking is there would be no cost as the point overhead is already built into the Branchwraith. Please let me know your thoughts.

The same question might also apply to the Heartwood Host (warscroll from the boxed set), the Oakenbrow Wargrove, and the Heartwood Wargrove. All allow replacement of models (Dryads), with the Oakenbrow allowing a one time replacement of an entire unit of Dryads of Tree-Revenants, and the Heartwood also allowing replacement of Spite-Revenants. I don't think the FAQs really address these types of replacement, or if there is a cost associated. Alarielle kicks this up a notch with her Soul Amphorae ability to summon Dryads, Tree-Revenants, or a Treelord. Her warscroll doesn't have a use limit on this, so technically if you were extremely blessed by the Gods of Chance, you could get five additional Treelords for a roll of 6 in each of your Hero phases. I'm not looking to nerf the Sylvaneth by any means as I really like those forces, but I don't want to get in a heated argument of rules interpretations with other players or a TO.

Lastly, is Drycha really intended to be a screaming time-bomb bent on destruction of everything around her, to include herself, with the enraged Colony of Flutterflies? Yes, I could see friendly units, like Dryads, getting damage from the potential 10 mortal wounds of the attack, but would her own Flutterflies really take her out as well with perfect rolls of sixes? Drycha is rather costly to have her charge into an enemy formation to be torn to shreds by her own Flutterflies' attack. I can't imagine this is how GW intended her to be, but a rather poorly worded warscroll leaves that interpretation open. Again, any thoughts or other ideas are welcomed.

Hi,

1. In each example you mentioned above, you would need reinforcement points for the models in Matched Play. An example where you don't need reinforcement points is the Verdurous Harmony spell via Gnarlroot Wargrove, which allows you to return 1 previously-slain model in a Sylvaneth unit (or D3 slain for Dryads or Tree-Revenants).

2. The latest FAQ clarifies a) an individual model (e.g., a Hero or Monster) is classified as a unit, and b) a unit is always within range of itself, so yes Drycha's Colony of Flitterfuries would attack herself in Matched Play. It's hard to know whether it was intended to attack herself, but she can still fill a role with Swarm of Squirmlings.

[Mossback]

Thanks for the reply. Using the Gnarlroot Wargrove's spell Verdurous Harmony seems very powerful then. I can use a Branchwych, Branchwraith, or other Sylvaneth caster to use it to return, say, a Treelord Ancient or even a Drycha suicide bomber for no cost. This certainly opens up a new strategy for the TLA as I could give one a Silverwood Circlet and the Reaping Deepwood spell for a 9" bubble of d3 mortal wounds. If the enemy forces manage to take down the TLA or Drycha, my handy Branchwych sitting on her Throne of Vines could potentially bring them back on a roll of 4. I think I found a new favorite strategy!

[Aggesut]

1 hour ago, Mossback said:

Thanks for the reply. Using the Gnarlroot Wargrove's spell Verdurous Harmony seems very powerful then. I can use a Branchwych, Branchwraith, or other Sylvaneth caster to use it to return, say, a Treelord Ancient or even a Drycha suicide bomber for no cost. This certainly opens up a new strategy for the TLA as I could give one a Silverwood Circlet and the Reaping Deepwood spell for a 9" bubble of d3 mortal wounds. If the enemy forces manage to take down the TLA or Drycha, my handy Branchwych sitting on her Throne of Vines could potentially bring them back on a roll of 4. I think I found a new favorite strategy!

Verdurous Harmony only works as long as the unit is still alive. As soon as a unit is removed from play, it would cost reinforcement points to bring back as per the reinforcement point rule. So you can't revive a Treelord or Drycha at no cost using Verdurous Harmony, as it would interfere with the rules of reinforcements. You could however bring back a Kurnoth hunter or d3 Dryads at no cost, as long as part of the unit is still alive.

[Mossback]

Ok, so Verdurous Harmony can restore up to 3 Dryads or Tree-Revenants to a unit that has taken casualties for no additional cost, but a Branchwraith would have to pay full cost for a unit of Dryads with the potential of getting between 2 through 12 models for the new unit? Same goes for Alarielle, except she can also potentially bring a Treelord to the board or up to 6 Tree-Revenants. I realize the points only matter in matched play, but paying full replacement cost for a unit of Dryads when you might only get two seems illogical. The General's Handbook doesn't allow you to pay for individual models that are part of a large unit (buying one Dryad for 10 points when a unit costs 100 for ten models), so a Branchwraith casting the Roused to Wrath spell would only have something like a 1 in 4 chance of getting a full unit or better of new Dryads. Those aren't really great odds. If I am misunderstanding this, please let me know. I want to play within the rules should a match play come up and know how to best shape my forces.

Thanks for the clarification, Aggesut, on the unit/model confusion. It would have been pretty sweet to bring back Drycha or a TLA using Verdurous Harmony.

[Aggesut]

50 minutes ago, Mossback said:

Ok, so Verdurous Harmony can restore up to 3 Dryads or Tree-Revenants to a unit that has taken casualties for no additional cost, but a Branchwraith would have to pay full cost for a unit of Dryads with the potential of getting between 2 through 12 models for the new unit? Same goes for Alarielle, except she can also potentially bring a Treelord to the board or up to 6 Tree-Revenants. I realize the points only matter in matched play, but paying full replacement cost for a unit of Dryads when you might only get two seems illogical. The General's Handbook doesn't allow you to pay for individual models that are part of a large unit (buying one Dryad for 10 points when a unit costs 100 for ten models), so a Branchwraith casting the Roused to Wrath spell would only have something like a 1 in 4 chance of getting a full unit or better of new Dryads. Those aren't really great odds. If I am misunderstanding this, please let me know. I want to play within the rules should a match play come up and know how to best shape my forces.

Thanks for the clarification, Aggesut, on the unit/model confusion. It would have been pretty sweet to bring back Drycha or a TLA using Verdurous Harmony.

Yeah, that is unfortunately how the Reinforcements rule impacts a lot of summoning; the Phoenix only has 50/50 chance of coming back but you still pay full price. Dryads you'd have to pay 100 points for 10 even if you only summon 3, or in the extreme circumstances where you get 12 on the roll you'd still only get to summon 10 - but again that's how matched game rules work for both better and worse!

Absolutely, no worries mate - it's taken a while for us to clarify a lot of these rules, and there are still a lot to clarify, but that is where talking to your opponents comes into play. And yeah it would have been massively sweet to be able to summon TLAs on a 7, but I think your opponent would disagree with that sediment!

[Nico]

Quote

Verdurous Harmony only works as long as the unit is still alive. As soon as a unit is removed from play, it would cost reinforcement points to bring back as per the reinforcement point rule. So you can't revive a Treelord or Drycha at no cost using Verdurous Harmony, as it would interfere with the rules of reinforcements.

Your conclusion is right, but the reason is much simpler, there's simply no target unit for the spell at all on the table.

If you're an aspiring Sylvaneth player then you might want to check out Tyler's thread here (47 pages of holiday reading):

 

[Mossback]

So, the issue with Drycha remains unclear. Just from reading the back stories GW has published, it doesn't seem to me that Drycha ever intended to be a screaming suicide bomb. Rather, she was enraged, but calculating in her fighting abilities. I don't think she would want her own flutterfuries to attack herself, or other Sylvaneth units for that matter. I'd like to see GW clarify this in a FAQ or rewrite the her warscroll to read, " When she attacks with her Colony of Flutterfuries, roll 10 dice for each NON-SYLVANETH unit within the range shown on the damage table."

Then again, maybe GW really did intend for Drycha to be the equivalent of a carpet bombing attacker, slaying friendly and enemy forces alike. It would make the Sylvaneth player really think twice about bringing her to a battle. If that is the intent, then having her bomb herself seems even less likely of a good strategy. I can't really imagine what was in the designer's head when they wrote the warscroll, so a bit of clarification would be helpful.

[Aezeal]

No need to think twice, I just bring squirmlings

[Sleboda]

Agreed.  Building her now, and the fact that she hurts herself with flutterflies means she is getting squirmlings for certain.

[Nico]

Quote

Then again, maybe GW really did intend for Drycha to be the equivalent of a carpet bombing attacker, slaying friendly and enemy forces alike. It would make the Sylvaneth player really think twice about bringing her to a battle. If that is the intent, then having her bomb herself seems even less likely of a good strategy. I can't really imagine what was in the designer's head when they wrote the warscroll, so a bit of clarification would be helpful.

Purposively - there's little doubt that her ability is meant to hit her allies. That aspect of the rule is uncontroversial. It's only whether it's meant to affect herself that is unclear. It's too big a gap to bridge by purposive interpretation - an FAQ answer is needed, so in the interim she is going to hit herself with it. Note that the damage she inflicts on herself doesn't affect the power of the Flitterfuries attack itself that turn (as you only allocate the damage after you've completed all the attacks from a unit (that phase) or as it's your turn you can choose which units to roll for first and choose her last - Hints and Tips section of every Battletome).

[Mossback]

I do hope GW issues a FAQ or clarification as to Drycha's damage with the Flutterfuries. I agree; area damage to all units, friendly and foe, but self inflicted wounds doesn't seem like the right interpretation. With the holidays now over, maybe someone on their staff can issue some clarity on this.

[Sleboda]

14 hours ago, Mossback said:

I do hope GW issues a FAQ or clarification as to Drycha's damage with the Flutterfuries. I agree; area damage to all units, friendly and foe, but self inflicted wounds doesn't seem like the right interpretation. With the holidays now over, maybe someone on their staff can issue some clarity on this.

And maybe Mojang can fix the monster spawners.  Grr.

But yeah, I need to know this too.  If she does NOT hurt herself, I'm going with the flutterbutterflypies and making her like an old-style Casket of Souls suicide bomber.  Right now it's quite clear though that she does hurt herself (by the rules).

[Mossback]

7 hours ago, Sleboda said:

And maybe Mojang can fix the monster spawners.  Grr.

But yeah, I need to know this too.  If she does NOT hurt herself, I'm going with the flutterbutterflypies and making her like an old-style Casket of Souls suicide bomber.  Right now it's quite clear though that she does hurt herself (by the rules).

While I agree that as written, Drycha does indeed seem to harm herself with the Flutterfuries attack, I am less sure that was what was intended. It is probably just a wording oversight. It would be rather amusing to see a wall of multicolored butterflies bursting forth from a screaming tree creature right before everything explodes.

[camtin]

This was updated in this week's Order FAQ update

SYLVANETH Page 133 – Drycha Hamadreth, Colony of Flitterfuries Change the second sentence to: ‘When she attacks with her Colony of Flitterfuries, roll 10 dice for each enemy unit within in the range shown on the damage table.’

[WABBIT]

So does this mean Heartwood wargrove is useless? It already costs 160 pts (more than a unit of 10 Dryads) so why spend more on reinforcement points as well just to use its ability that is already paid for?   All you get is +1 Bravery for being near Hunters for 160 pts.

 

 All wizards have a niche spell that is free or costed into the model. Shouldn't summoners get a price drop if their spells cost more to use? All they gain is the ability to summon but without more points they are not able to use it. Points saved for Reinforcement are to the detriment of the army. for example All Spells manipulate units in some way, They can move, destroy or heal several models for example but if you summon them they cost more pts. Why? 

What's the difference between removing 10 opponents models with a spell/ability and adding 10 friendly models? Surely they should both be free or both cost pts to use if it's a balanced approach? A Bubonic plague spell can remove 3 models via mortal wounds on 4 of my units in one casting for free but A Branch wraith cannot summon 2D6 dryads without paying even more points? You may as well start with the dryads right away so they can maximise their presence on the table.

It doesn't seem fair to make "summoners" pay full price as it's effectively nerfing a summoning wizards spell, Battalion special rule or heroes ability. I hope Alarielle summoning ability isn't costed into her Matched play profile as its not usable if you have to pay reinforcement points as well.  It's like Durthu's sword does 6 damage when he isn't wounded - we don't have to pay 100pts every time he swings his sword so why pay 100pts for dryads a branch wraith summons. The Branch wraith doesn't get used much because of this and it only gets 2xD6 Dryads - its unpredictable so how many points do you need to save? It's a great way to give yourself a handicap.

Every unit missing from the battle is not being effective, holding objectives, causing damage or putting out any threat so they cannot be worth full price. It's a huge disadvantage to hold troops back in reserve for spells or abilities especially as you run the risk of losing that character or spell before bringing those units on the table. What is the worth of 100pts of dryads summoned on turn 6 which have had no time to do anything, no impact the game, no screening of primary units etc and starts so far away when they arrive they probably won't make it into combat before the game ends. Many battle plans are timed in some fashion so units that arrive late have no impact so why throw away those points.  

It doesn't make sense to me but it's not a massive issue as, like many players, I just don't employ those units - this I think is a shame. I accept any kind of summoning (especially Allarielles) in a matched play game is powerful (overpowered with allarielles but fun for open play ). Nerfing replacement/summoning spells and abilities to the current level just stops players using a fun part of the game (at least in matched play anyway). At the very least I suggest summoning points should be half price, If you sacrifice 100pts of warhost/Vanguard etc you should get 200 reinforcement points. That seems like a good compromise? It may make summoning a thing outside of Undead armies and allow us to use some really nice flavourful abilities which are currently locked away for non matched play games only and only *IF your opponents don't mind you using them.

I'm interested in the counter view? Am i missing something?  (I hope my post isn't seen as whining, I think we all invest time and money in this hobby and should be allowed to criticise/challenge/feedback in a reasonable way. I am trying to be constructive so please don't just post I hate/love it).