Let's chat Disciples of Tzeentch

[Denneysman]

In a tzeentch army Archaon, The Everchosen can kill anything useing fatedice there is nothing that will live after his charge.

[Nico]

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Didn't really think of the shield with him but I may try it out. I've been using the shield on a tzeentch chaos lord on demonic mount as he rerolls failed saves and the shield let's you reroll successful saves so they cancel out and you have a guy with a 2+ base, 1 + in cover. He acts as a nice little tarpit. However I'm having trouble justifying any character who isn't a wizard in my army now.

With that particular hero it would always be a reroll. A save must be either successful or not, he has to reroll the successful ones and he wants to reroll the failed ones. The net effect is a base save of a 2+ save, which is sweet. 

It's more complicated with reroll ones to save, as high rend would mean that a 2 or a 3 might be a failed save that cannot be rerolled.

I think the discussion on why the normal rule of do the rerolls before modifiers doesn't apply to the concept of "successful" save rolls is somewhere in this thread. In brief that rule exists, so that rerolls of ones don't become redundant due to modifiers like rend and particularly +1 to hit, as if you modified the hit rolls of 1 first you could never have any 1s to reroll. That rule leads to absurdities when applied to the concept of a successful save.

[Nico]

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In a tzeentch army Archaon, The Everchosen can kill anything useing fatedice there is nothing that will live after his charge.

Except a regular unit with decent armour. His sword isn't great against non-heroes and monsters.

It's a good thing that Big Archaon is finally useful again.

[Denneysman]

Yes that would be foolish you save him for the big boys Nagash Stardrake glotkin stuff like that

[Nico]

ALLEGIANCE: Tzeentch
LEADERS
Lord Of Change (300)
- General
The Changeling (140)
Gaunt Summoner of Tzeentch (120)
UNITS
1 x Exalted Flamers of Tzeentch (120)
1 x Exalted Flamers of Tzeentch (120)
1 x Exalted Flamers of Tzeentch (120)
1 x Exalted Flamers of Tzeentch (120)
1 x Exalted Flamers of Tzeentch (120)
1 x Exalted Flamers of Tzeentch (120)
10 x Brimstone Horrors Of Tzeentch (40)
20 x Chaos Warriors (360)
- Hand Weapon & Shield
- Mark of Chaos : Tzeentch
- Battleline
10 x Chaos Marauders (60)
- Battleline
10 x Chaos Marauders (60)
- Battleline
BATTALIONS
The Eternal Conflagration (40)
Warpflame Host (30)

WOUNDS: 118 TOTAL POINTS: 1870 / 2000

Here's one list.

I've got to say, I thought I would be able to fit more units in. There's 30 cheap bodies as chaff. 3 Battleline. One tank unit. I really wanted a Chaos Sorceror Lord but 140 for one spell is a fortune when points are so scarce.

[Malakithe]

Add in another gaunt then blues?

[AverageBoss]

10 hours ago, Malfallax said:

Aaah the Curseling.... I love the model and the rules .... Why can't we use him on any Battalion?

Honestly, all 3 of the left out characters should have been options for the Arcanite Cabal. All 3 have the Arcanite Keyword. All 3 are casters. And all 3 make more sense, are better looking, and more relevant than the Fatemaster.

[Tokyo Nift]

So you play a list with one or two lords of change in it, and you come up vs Sylvaneth who take enough Kurnoth Hunters to oneshot a LoC when they teleport out of the woods on turn 1. How dyu play that out?

[AverageBoss]

2 hours ago, Tokyo Nift said:

So you play a list with one or two lords of change in it, and you come up vs Sylvaneth who take enough Kurnoth Hunters to oneshot a LoC when they teleport out of the woods on turn 1. How dyu play that out?

Die a little more on the inside.
Cry a little more on the outside.

Only thing I can think of.

[MacDuff]

Uh - maybe just stay away or behind LOS blocking terrain?

[Malakithe]

If you have 2 LoC then your probably running The Hosts Duplicitous...which means you can debuff them or swap units into them or straight up charge them with your melee LoC

[Nevvermore]

6 hours ago, Tokyo Nift said:

So you play a list with one or two lords of change in it, and you come up vs Sylvaneth who take enough Kurnoth Hunters to oneshot a LoC when they teleport out of the woods on turn 1. How dyu play that out?

Wait until GHB2 when they can't afford that many Hunters

[Tokyo Nift]

6 hours ago, AverageBoss said:

Die a little more on the inside.
Cry a little more on the outside.

Only thing I can think of.

Currently the strategy I'm thinking of.
 

3 hours ago, MacDuff said:

Uh - maybe just stay away or behind LOS blocking terrain?

They teleport onto the map turn 1 into the woods, with a 30" range, and there isn't a lot of terrain that blocks TLoS for a big ol' lord of change bird.
 

3 hours ago, Malakithe said:

If you have 2 LoC then your probably running The Hosts Duplicitous...which means you can debuff them or swap units into them or straight up charge them with your melee LoC

Ya running Hosts. If he shoots my Changehost LoC off the table turn one I can't even swap, I agree with charging them with a melee LoC but there's no way he'll even kill one unit of hunters in one round and they can fit 5+ blocks of 3.



I feel like if you run Hosts or the daemon formations in general you end up with lots of horrors who don't do anything, and so your list is very dependent on not losing your LoC(s) because your other 1400 points of army doesn't do very much? Not bashing the formations, I love 'em and they're very powerful, just wondering how to play it in situations where they can kill your LoC on turn 1.  

[Stauderpower]

DOT is very susceptible to alpha strike lists since our characters basically define the army. It's why in all my lists I have about 7 chaff units of Blues, brimstones, and marauders to slow down the lists that drop models close. I also have a lot of arcanites stuff as I feel it is a bit more effective independent of characters. However sylvaneth are just going to have good shooting and probably kill 1 to 2 characters a turn. However if they have that many hunter units, they probably have 2 treelords, ancients, or durthus. That leaves them few points on scoring units of dryads and revenants which are usually at the biggest 10 models and susceptible to horror shooting and combat with tzaangors. Kill those and then start running your chaff units, tzaangors, whatever onto objectives and just try to weather the storm. Sylvaneth can be a bad match up but remember the objectives are all that matters. It can be a rough (played against that list several times), but it's deffinately possible to win and it's down to practicing against that list to learn good target priority and positioning, since you will probably run into at least one at an event

[Malakithe]

This is why I'm opting to go for a mixed list

[Caleb]

I had a thought, if you run an army featuring Archaon as its General alongside two or more Lords of Change, would Archaon's own Command Ability allow you to stack the two Lords of Change Command Abilities together to give +2 to casting and unbinding rolls? 

If that is the case, that list on the previous page would actually be even nastier than I first thought. Infusion Arcanum, the +1 Attack for a single weapon spell (use on the Slayer of Kings) and Destiny Dice on Archaon with all those casting bonuses for the Lords of Change is amazing. Even without Destiny Dice but factoring in those spells he should one-shot a hero or monster every turn and leave the rest of his weapon profiles free to attack other nearby enemies. 

[daedalus81]

A few problems with this Kurnoth scenario:

1) It would take 15 Kurnoth to do that on average, so let's say 12.  Or 21 if you somehow had mystic shield on.  
2) You can almost always be 30" from a wood since you've got 32" to play with and you know where it is before setup.  
3) If you can't be more than 30" away then they have placed the wood comically close to you and you can choke out wood so not enough models can fit more than 9" from one of your units.

Unless i'm missing something that would make this foolproof?

[scrollbuilderdude]

Hey @Nico,

Must have been lost in all of the reorganizing I've been doing. I'll get him/she/it back in tonight.

-Tony

[Mirage8112]

4 hours ago, daedalus81 said:

A few problems with this Kurnoth scenario:

1) It would take 15 Kurnoth to do that on average, so let's say 12.  Or 21 if you somehow had mystic shield on.  
2) You can almost always be 30" from a wood since you've got 32" to play with and you know where it is before setup.  
3) If you can't be more than 30" away then they have placed the wood comically close to you and you can choke out wood so not enough models can fit more than 9" from one of your units.

Unless i'm missing something that would make this foolproof?

1. Unless you manage to combine your army in a single drop, the Sylvaneth player will very likely go first, so you probably won't get a chance to put mystic shield on. My math says 15 Kurnoth hunters will probably be enough to peel of 14 wounds in 1 round of shooting. At 180 pts for 3, you're looking at a 900 pt investment. It's kind of an "all the eggs in one basket list" but I've seen it in competitive play so it's very possible you'd see this in at an event. 

2. A Wildwood clump is roughly 22" wide and 12" deep. The board is 72" wide and 48" deep. So, if the wood is deployed dead center the Sylvaneth player easily has range over the entire board (Each edge of the wood will be 24" from each long edge and 30" to the very back edge of the board on both sides.) So unless you're going to be deploying everything pushed against the back edge and waaaayyy over on the far corners, yes. You stand a good chance to lose a Lord of Change in the first round. 

3. A center drop puts the front edge of the wood 18" from the very front edge of your deployment zone (not every battle plan uses this set up, but most do). So unless you have scouting units or units with special deployments, there's not much you could do to stymie his drop. 

As I said before, a list with 15 hunters is quite an investment points-wise. So There will be little in the way of support units and traditional "combat" units. Likely you'll see something like this (at least this is how I'd consider doing it):

Allegiance: Order

Leaders
Treelord Ancient (300)
- General
- Trait: Gift of Ghyran - Sylvaneth
- Artefact: Ranu's Lamentiri  
- Deepwood Spell: Regrowth
Branchwych (100)
- Artefact: Acorn of the Ages  
- Deepwood Spell: Regrowth

Battleline
5 x Tree-Revenants (100)
- Sylvaneth Battleline
5 x Tree-Revenants (100)
- Sylvaneth Battleline
30 x Dryads (360)

Units
6 x Kurnoth Hunters (360)
- Greatbows
6 x Kurnoth Hunters (360)
- Greatbows
3 x Kurnoth Hunters (180)
- Greatbows

Battalions
Gnarlroot Wargrove (80)
Household (20)

Total: 1960/2000

Or there abouts. It's not impossible, but you'd have to start the game down a LoC which means it's kind of an uphill climb. You'd just have to remember to play hard to objectives rather than waste a bunch of turns trying to dislodge the hunters. 

[daedalus81]

A wyldwood takes up a considerable amount of space.  You could place it in the center assuming there is nothing else nearby for terrain.  Additionally, any Kurnoth deploying to reach a LoC in the corner would be within first turn charge range of units nearby.

[Mirage8112]

You'd be surprised how resilient 6 hunters are while standing in a wood. I'd be happy to let you try charging my hunters with 5 wounds and a 3+ rerollable save. Especially because you'd lose 1 in every 6 models trying to charge through a wood, and likely the wood would tear a bunch of things to pieces if magic was around.

In order to be a threat, they'd need to do at least 10 wounds *after* saves. But even then the hunters can just teleport out if they're in a combat they can't handle.

Bottom line is charging hunters in a wood is a fools errand. Better to shoot them with something that does a lot of mortal wounds or ignore them and play to objectives.


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[TrexPushups]

You'd be surprised how resilient 6 hunters are while standing in a wood. I'd be happy to let you try charging my hunters with 5 wounds and a 3+ rerollable save. Especially because you'd lose 1 in every 6 models trying to charge through a wood, and likely the wood would tear a bunch of things to pieces if magic was around.

In order to be a threat, they'd need to do at least 10 wounds *after* saves. But even then the hunters can just teleport out if they're in a combat they can't handle.

Bottom line is charging hunters in a wood is a fools errand. Better to shoot them with something that does a lot of mortal wounds or ignore them and play to objectives.


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Meh a person only has to risk the first model and any require to keep coherency.

So depending on figure placement maybe 1-2 rolls.

The charge succeeds or fails before the deadly terrain roll is made.

The rest of the unit can pile in safely.

It isn't polite but I wouldn't be too terrified of the terrain.


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[daedalus81]

Yea, but it's a tit for tat sort of thing.  If they're all in the woods then you're going to have a hard time getting 15 in range of the LoC - if they're deep enough where I have to end my charge on the woods then it will be even harder.  Again it really depends on what is on the table already.  There should essentially be a 21" exclusion zone if you've deployed a unit along the line nearest the woods, which makes it really, really hard to get 15 in range.

Something that is half the enemy army, has no mortal wound protection, and is within 9" of my deployment will get my full compliment of spells as well. 

[TrexPushups]

Yea, but it's a tit for tat sort of thing.  If they're all in the woods then you're going to have a hard time getting 15 in range of the LoC - if they're deep enough where I have to end my charge on the woods then it will be even harder.  Again it really depends on what is on the table already.  There should essentially be a 21" exclusion zone if you've deployed a unit along the line nearest the woods, which makes it really, really hard to get 15 in range.
Something that is half the enemy army, has no mortal wound protection, and is within 9" of my deployment will get my full compliment of spells as well. 

Tzaanzagor banners tossing out mortal wounds while being tough to remove seems like a good response to the hunters


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[Mirage8112]

3 hours ago, TrexPushups said:

Meh a person only has to risk the first model and any require to keep coherency.

So depending on figure placement maybe 1-2 rolls.

The charge succeeds or fails before the deadly terrain roll is made.

The rest of the unit can pile in safely.

It isn't polite but I wouldn't be too terrified of the terrain.

I'v never seen a person able to put more than 3-4 models in combat that way. Not without sacrificing a round to get in for a 3-4 inch charge. Close combat just isn't a good strategy for dealing with hunters bunkered in the woods. 

 

3 hours ago, daedalus81 said:

If they're all in the woods then you're going to have a hard time getting 15 in range of the LoC - if they're deep enough where I have to end my charge on the woods then it will be even harder.  Again it really depends on what is on the table already.  There should essentially be a 21" exclusion zone if you've deployed a unit along the line nearest the woods, which makes it really, really hard to get 15 in range.

Like I said, unless you're putting both LOC's in the back corner, at least one of the big birds will be in range. If neither are in range, they can still pull a unit or two off the board without breaking a sweat. Since they can bring 1 slain hunter back to life per turn, the first 5 wounds don't mean anything. The same goes for these second 4 wounds. That means you need to cause at least 10 wounds to effect their shooting in round 2. Thats pretty tough to do through mortal wound generation if you've put your big birds more than 30" away you won't be in range first round for any spells (and likely you won't be in range the second hero round either) . 

You'll also notice in the list I posted it includes a Branchwych with the acorn. Which means a second free forest after deployment. Between the first and the second even the two back corners are not safe. 30" range plus 2 forests to choose from AND the ability to split the hunters into 3 groups means it's pretty easy to get everything in range.

This isn't an easy list to hide from without some sort of substantial cover. The very best counter is probably trying for a 1 round drop and hope you win the roll off.