Tomb Herald x 2 side by side = immortal?

[gnaleinad]

Together with the Death Allegiance ability to save on a 6+, mathematically it's impossible to kill them as they will just transfer the wounds inflicted back and fro until it is all saved.

So does this means that only a Skarbrand can kill it? 

Or maybe Nagash and Archaon? 

[David Griffin]

@gnaleinad except he is not a unique character in any way, and it would set an odd precedent for the game to name a generic herald a unique hero.

@Nico Are you saying that Settra would get to make his "ward" (need a better term here) save before passing them to the Tomb King? The way I read it, Settra fails his armor save, suffers a wound, and then chooses to pass the wound off to the Herald, who then gets to make his ward save. This discussion may have already taken place on the forum elsewhere, but there seems to be a little ambiguity about when exactly those wound can get passed off - before or after the original hero's ward save.

[gnaleinad]

I like how this discussion is going. A deep thoughts about abilities that seems too strong. 

I survived many times against a Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon with Red Fury trait, Tomb blade Artefact, boosted with Blood Feast(1 extra attack to all melee weapon) and Mannfred's Vigour of Undeath Command ability.

There was pure luck, all his attacks failed to wound. There was pure resilient, Frostlord on Stonehorn worth Mystic Shield. There was also good placement, cover save plus Mystic Shield plus Ironjawz Shields.

Red Fury is scary but not unblockable. Two Spear Chukka can cut it down to size. 

But this? I dunno. TO need to take action if it is played, especially with another death hero.

It's just impossible in Take & Hold, Three Places of Power, Gifts from the heaven battle plans.

If playing Escalation battle plan it's just a distraction. 

If playing Border Wars and Blood & Glory, it's an irritation.

Oh another counter is to use Slaughter Priest to break them apart and Slaughter them individually. 

Can anyone think of another counter? 

 

 

[Squirrelmaster]

Only have the Sylvaneth book, but the player whose turn it is only decides which player uses their abilities first. If any single player has multiple abilities, it's up to them to decide what order to use them in, regardless of whose turn it is.

So in the case of multiple ward saves, the player controlling the model gets to pick which order they are used in.

[Nico]

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The 5+ goes first because it is part of Settra's warscroll. 

I agree with everything you've said apart from this. It's not an important distinction here (but it's an important rule in other contexts). I mentioned this above (I should have given the reference). The Hints and Tips section of every Battletome covers when to use simultaneous abilities - basically it's in the order of choice of the player whose turn it is. So technically in your opponent's turn they could say "do the 6+ ward before the 5+ ward". 

This is fairly academic in the case of a choice of two ward saves (mathematically similar- although one might feel that a 6+ save beforehand on more dice feels better or is more likely to yield an average result). The exception would be Nagash where he is always better off if he does his Morrikhane save first (as on a 6 it does a bounce back mortal wound). I'm not suggesting that people start flipping the Order of Ward saves from one turn to another (except for Nagash), it's really just to illustrate the wider point.

A good example of where it makes a massive difference (which is why I am always flagging the Hints and Tips) is from my practice game vs @Bowlzee Sylvaneth using Nasty Skulkers. Ancients have a stomp which works in the start of the combat phase sub-phase before the combat phase proper. All three units of Nasty Skulkers also have an ability which works in the start of the combat phase. Hence, all four abilities are simultaneous.

As it was my turn, I could pick the order in which to use those abilities, so I did one Skulker unit, then the next, then the final one, then Stomp (of course the Ancient was dead already by then). Had it been Craig's turn, then he could have chosen to do Stomp and then my Skulkers would have done their thing (potentially with a -1 to hit debuff which is massive).

[Mengel Miniatures]

I'm pretty positive that Settra would get 3 saves before ever going to his Herald. He get's his normal 3+ save (unless it's a mortal wound of course), then if he fails that he gets his 5+ save because it says to roll it each time he suffers a wound, then if he fails that, he would get his 6+ from being Death because that is also taken if he suffers a wound. THEN the Herald can take the wound if that's failed because it says he can take it if a Death hero suffers a wound, and then he gets his 6+ save because he's taking a wound. The 5+, 6+, Herald, and Herald's 6+ all come into effect if they suffer a wound. The 5+ goes first because it is part of Settra's warscroll. A wound is "suffered" each time one of these saves is failed, thereby triggering the next save in line. The Herald wouldn't be triggered until every other save has been failed by Settra, because up until that happens he still hasn't suffered a wound.

It's my understanding that everything on the warscroll comes first, then the allegiance ability. If it gets through all of that then it triggers the Herald's ability, and then his allegiance ability.

Seems like the most common sense answer to me.

[Squirrelmaster]

13 minutes ago, Nico said:

From memory, they get:

1. One back from their own banner within the unit (I agree that while you could take an entire unit of banner bearers as per the FAQ, multiple banner bearers don't make any difference).
2. One back from a Wizard casting the relevant spell (which is subject to the Rule of One).
3. Another one back from each and every Tomb Herald which plants its banner in the hero phase.

Ah, got you. I thought you meant multiple icon bearers, not multiple heralds.

(I don't think there is a spell for chariots, though)

[Nico]

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Knights and Chariots only get one model back per round, no matter how many banners they have. 

From memory, they get:

1. One back from their own banner within the unit (I agree that while you could take an entire unit of banner bearers as per the FAQ, multiple banner bearers don't make any difference).
2. One back from a Wizard casting the relevant spell (which is subject to the Rule of One).
3. Another one back from each and every Tomb Herald which plants its banner in the hero phase.

Regarding (3) - enter the massive digression - this is unless the comp pack specifically bans the same ability stacking; and the concept of stacking is interpreted broadly enough to include that, cf. it's much more obvious that 2 Bloodsecrators "stack", rather than doing the same discrete thing twice -  a long time ago Russ Veal mentioned on Facehammer that trying to find a form of words that works for all the different types of "stacking" and isn't a whole book is very hard). This is a good point. Kudos to GW and the independent events folks/community leaders, Russ, Ben, Dan, Wayne (probably forgotten someone - sorry) for finding a pretty solid solution in the 3 Rules of One (and balancing out the hard nerf to Death that this entailed by giving them the fat "ward" save in Deathless Minions - the best Allegiance Pack). The result is that (a) the four Grand Alliances are all viable (I wouldn't quite say balanced); (b) most of the latest perceived filth is movement and set up trickery - (which is a good thing because people can learn how to deploy/list build to beat it or join it); and none of the perceived filth that actually makes it to the tabletop is down to stacking abilities. Sometimes something sounds utterly horrendous (Kroak plus Astrobearers plus Balewind Vortex or Nagash plus Neferata), but you can often still sidestep it or backline your whole army and just keep on retreating to limit the damage to a minor loss or sometimes get the win by focussing on the objectives (if the Battleplan allows this). Also, there are almost always hard counters out there (seems like good game design - makes me think of Starcraft).   

In practice, very few lists are going to take 2, let alone more than 2 Tomb Heralds (unless actively seeking to abuse infinite bouncing).

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The way it is written means that the last thing you can do is the "deathless" save.

I lean you can transfer it 10 times if you want but only make une deathless save because once it is made you have to inflict / ignore the wound.

You may well be correct. However, to me this looks like the Red Fury* issue - it's not quite possible to come to a definitive answer from the rules, but many other factors (purpose, fun, balance, a TO can still ban something on the spot as Thomas Lyons @Thomas Lyons pointed out etc.) point towards not doing an infinite loop. 

*I don't want to revisit/reopen this debate - suffice to say that I don't quite think that the Red Fury rule engages with the wording of the Rule of One (you may think it does and I normally adopt a purposive interpretation and on that basis it could (not would) do).

However, the rule is silent as to whether it can do an infinite chain and so the sensible presumption would be that it doesn't (I can go into reasons if anyone really wants to discuss it). The main reason would be that GW wouldn't go out of their way to stop infinite chains in the Rule of One only to spawn a brand new one in the same book. It could be a worthwhile house rule one liner in a Tournament Pack, so you don't have the moment of fear that your opponent is going to attack for a third time (ditto the Herald bouncing to infinity until it passes the ward save). 

 

[kozokus]

Mmmmh

The way it is written means that the last thing you can do is the "deathless" save.

I lean you can transfer it 10 times if you want but only make une deathless save because once it is made you have to inflict / ignore the wound.

[Squirrelmaster]

Knights and Chariots only get one model back per round, no matter how many banners they have. Having a second for redundancy can be pretty important, though — if you're ever reduced to just the banner, and he gets wounded, you will have to make him the next casualty no matter how many models you've brought back in the meantime.

My personal feeling is that Deathless Minion should only be applied before or after the bodyguard rule (controlling player's choice), but not both.

Another option would be to errata Sword Bodyguard to not work on other Tomb Heralds — which seems perfectly reasonable to me, fluff-wise.

[Nico]

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Actually the quickest fix to this problem is just to make the Tomb Herald an UNIQUE leader, shutting down this shenanigan. 

The solution is an FAQ answer.  

Your suggestion would stop you from having two banners for the purpose of bringing back two models to each of your Necropolis Knights and Chariot units (a rare choice, but someone might want to do it or from having two for pure redundancy purposes). It's just an unnecessary nerf. For all the complaining about Death (Mourngul bashing; Ward Save bashing; Tomb Kings bashing by people who don't know that Necropolis Knights are a 5+ save against pew pew), it's seems fairly rare that they win an AoS Tournament (I can think of Gary Hennessey at Rain of Stars and Dan Ford more recently with Tomb Kings). If someone can show me that they've won more than 25% of AoS tournaments in the last year I'd be surprised and grateful. I'd think it would be similar with the top 10.

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@Nico Are you saying that Settra would get to make his "ward" (need a better term here) save before passing them to the Tomb King? The way I read it, Settra fails his armor save, suffers a wound, and then chooses to pass the wound off to the Herald, who then gets to make his ward save. This discussion may have already taken place on the forum elsewhere, but there seems to be a little ambiguity about when exactly those wound can get passed off - before or after the original hero's ward save.

Yes - I am saying that. I note that the wording could be a lot clearer as you're suggesting. That said, if you look at the difference between this ability and that of the Spirit of Durthu (which reads to me as the (say) Alarielle doesn't get the save; and then the Durthu does get his save (mortal wounds going straight onto Durthu), then that points towards the ward save of Settra working. If (and I'm not saying that this is the case) the abilities were considered to be simultaneous, then it would be an odd situation where the player whose turn it is would decide which happens first, the Settra Ward or the bounce.

Technically speaking this is probably true for Settra's effectively simultaneous ward saves (the Broach and then the Death Ward), but doesn't matter on average. 

It seems more powerful than it is because Settra is one of the few characters with such a ward save (however as @Mengel Miniatures noted, he does only have 8 wounds - I've seen him get unlucky and lose 5 wounds to a single cannonball etc.). 

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He dies a lot less now that I do this. Give the Herald the Ring of Immortality too for extra hijinks.  

Good one!

The Heralds are useful for the extremely easy to kill Neferata and Mannfred as well (aka Thundertusk bait). They will be sorely missed if TK do depart from GH v2.0.

[Mengel Miniatures]

1 hour ago, Nico said:

This is fine (and even fluffy - it's exactly what they are there for), it's when you interpret it to bounce back and forth until the ward saves cancel the wounds that it gets abusive. So you could have Settra 3+ Save, Settra 5++ ward, Settra 6++ ward, then it goes as a mortal wound to the Tomb Herald, he has a 6++ ward if that fails, he takes the wound. It's still a good combo. Of course the answer is to kill the Heralds first.

I always take one herald with Settra for exactly this reason. He just tags along behind him, within 3" of the back of his base so usually out of combat and just absorbs any wounds that get through Settra's 3 saves. 8 wounds is pretty low for such a powerful character, so he needs the extra 5 wounds. If Settra moves too fast for the Herald I can always use Settra's Incantation ability to double the Herald's movement to keep up since he's a Skeleton. He dies a lot less now that I do this. Give the Herald the Ring of Immortality too for extra hijinks.  

[gnaleinad]

Indeed this infinite loop needs to be ban in tournament.

Actually the quickest fix to this problem is just to make the Tomb Herald an UNIQUE leader, shutting down this shenanigan. 

[Nico]

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Would any of you consider it gamey  to include two Tomb Heralds in a list with Settra as his personal bodyguards.  Each of them jumps in front of him until dead and then the second does the same, effectively increasing Settras wounds by 10?

This is fine (and even fluffy - it's exactly what they are there for), it's when you interpret it to bounce back and forth until the ward saves cancel the wounds that it gets abusive. So you could have Settra 3+ Save, Settra 5++ ward, Settra 6++ ward, then it goes as a mortal wound to the Tomb Herald, he has a 6++ ward if that fails, he takes the wound. It's still a good combo. Of course the answer is to kill the Heralds first.

[rokapoke]

13 minutes ago, Robert Reid said:

Would any of you consider it gamey  to include two Tomb Heralds in a list with Settra as his personal bodyguards.  Each of them jumps in front of him until dead and then the second does the same, effectively increasing Settras wounds by 10?

Well as I interpret it only one bodyguard can activate for each wound that would otherwise be applied to Settra. It seems like a power-gaming style to me, which I'm not a fan of, but it's legit in my eyes.

[Robert Reid]

Would any of you consider it gamey  to include two Tomb Heralds in a list with Settra as his personal bodyguards.  Each of them jumps in front of him until dead and then the second does the same, effectively increasing Settras wounds by 10?

[Nico]

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I would imagine if you did this at a tournament you would be knocked down on sports (if its a soft score event) or told you can bounce a wound a single time and that's it. If you did this in a friendly game I can't see your opponent wanting to play you again lol

The TO should just comp/ban this on the spot.

It's not a new idea. I emailed Mo about a list involving Nagash, Kemmler and 4 Tomb Heralds about a year ago - split the wounds up and then heal up 2 per turn to all the models. It was to warn him about it, rather than because I was going to use it. There are good combos and filth; and then there are non-games. Games where you cannot even kill a single model are likely to be non-games.

[Terry Pike]

The wording of "each time" the wound is suffered would effectively make 2 or more of these immortal to any attack other than one that removes you from play by being instantly slain.

I would imagine if you did this at a tournament you would be knocked down on sports (if its a soft score event) or told you can bounce a wound a single time and that's it. If you did this in a friendly game I can't see your opponent wanting to play you again lol

[rokapoke]

From a purely rules-driven approach, that may be -- of course, that's heavily into what I've seen referred to as "beardy" play.

From reading the ability's description, I cannot imagine how they can keep leaping in front of one another to suffer the mortal wound in the other's place -- the ability is meant to be a bodyguard-style protection method. One bodyguard steps up to take the wound, and he's stuck with it (pending the 6+ allegiance ability, that is).