2K ironjawz competitive

[N_Watson]

@Sneak

Definitely more competitive than your first list. You can only have 5 units in the ironfist though. 

[Chris Tomlin]

Morning!

Ok wow...lots of new posts here! Looks like @Sneak has got us going  

@N_Watson - I like your list and many of your thoughts mirror those from my topic/podcast/vids etc, so yeh agree with most of that.

16 hours ago, Nico said:

60 Pointer - Night Goblin Shaman - also gets +2 to cast.

Yeh sorry that was a typo on my part.

16 hours ago, Sneak said:

wtf is a Cabbage ?

That's what we call the Maw-krusha as the model has an uncanny resemblance to a certain vegetable (no, not Ben Diesel...well!)

16 hours ago, Sneak said:

if i was going to play the same amount of brutes I would play 3 more gore gruntas over a unit of 10 ard boyz. Also "focussed on pure smash play" These are orks we're talking about here...

Again that's pretty narrow minded. Sure, Ironjawz are kinda one dimensional and one thing we do well is dishing out the pain. I do not believe pure smash play is the best way to get a return out of your army though. We have some pretty solid movement options which is key under the GH battleplans.

I note you've refused to comment on which battleplans you have played so far, despite me having asked multiple times. Looking at your list, comments, and other topic (What Gordrakk killed), I'm under the impression that perhaps you've just been playing kill scenarios. Which is of course totally fine (and your list would be great under that!), just perhaps not preparing you for your upcoming Tournament.

15 hours ago, Dez said:

What Chris is referring to by 'Smash Play' is a bit different, we know that it's going to be all assault all the time  Smash Play is playing to destroy your opponent, which is mainly going to net you minor victories. To get major victories, you need to play cagey (Kunnin'!) and prepare for each scenario. This means boots on the ground in Ardboyz, and Brutes bringing the killy in order to gain objectives.

Yeh, pretty nicely said Dez. There's more to these orks Orruks than just push it forward aggression.

15 hours ago, Malakithe said:

As an advocate of the Weirdfist I'd say your doing it wrong. You literally need to bubble wrap the shaman in bodies for the bonuses. At a minimumyou need 30 models around him 100% of the time and the entire battalion needs to stay behind the front line guys. 

With competitive games objectives are the focus. Even if you table your opponent you can still lose. You need bodies. The concept of the list is fairly simple. Ironfist moves up super quick with Megaboss and Warchanter to smash head first into the front while the Weirdfist blast stuff from afar and captures stuff.

I think your list is probably a pretty solid example of the Weirdfist, which I am keen to try out myself (and would go something similar). I still think it's super vulnerable to losing the Weirdnob though. How have you found this list? Maybe post in competitive Ironjawz thread or start up a Weirdfist one rather than derailing @Sneak's though.

12 hours ago, Sneak said:

I agree with you about the formation which is why I said i wouldn't play it again. How would you deal with nagash? 

Under matched play and the GH battleplans, Nagash is not all that effective tbh (all the top Death players have moved away from him). He is so many points in a single model. So in answer to your question, I think the correct response is probably "Ignore him". In reality you would have to lose some stuff to him, but if you can do this whilst scoring objectives then its probably ok.

11 hours ago, Sneak said:

my brutes never reach because of the swarm of ghouls or zombies... 

Again, if the Nagash player is surrounding the big man with chaff units then they aren't out there scoring objectives. This would be an even better situation tbh!

11 hours ago, Sneak said:

what do you boyz think about this list 

Leaders
Orruk Megaboss (140)
Orruk Megaboss (140)

Units
Orruk Brutes x 10 (360)
Orruk Brutes x 10 (360)
Orruk Brutes x 5 (180)
Orruk Brutes x 5 (180)
Orruk Gore Gruntas x 3 (180)
Orruk Ardboys x 20 (360)

Behemoths

War Machines

Batallions
Ironfist (60)

Total: 1960/2000

I really like this list mate...it just has one glaring error. Not a single Warchanter!!! They are literally the single most key model to an Ironjawz, IMO of course! At Clash of Swords at the end of the month I have two variant lists, one of them is similar as this, however I have only 10 Ardboyz and 1 Megaboss. Instead I have a Black Orc Big Boss and 2 Warchanters. This then gives enough points to get a second Ironfist (meaning you can split the 6 units into two 3's and score another artefact). That said 2 Megabosses is definitely nice and I also have some plans around that myself.

To further the list in terms of competitiveness I would drop the Gore-gruntas for 10 Ardboyz. However I'm keen to keep the pigs for painting/aesthetical reasons.

9 hours ago, Sadysaneto said:

My two cents as an ironjawz player:

Brutes should be on units of 5, their bravery sucks.

Megaboss goes with brutes.

Arboys get 3 attacks each and 1+ on hit (3/3/-1/1) as long as the leader is alive. with banner they get +2 on bravery and can really hold their own. They also get +2 on charges with musicians. They are a solid unit.

Grimgor and big boss are ironjawz. Stick one or both with the boyz.

Weirnob shamans are not efficient.

Gordrakk is only for 2500+ pts.

Gordrakk was born to run with formations. Ironfist is cheap, broad and delicious with him.

Gore gruntas are really hard to put down. 5 wounds and 7 bravery is a pretty decent combo. They might not bring the pain, but are tanky as hell.

Warchanters should be you filler unit of choice.

Not a bad summary there. I don't agree with it all, but hey, it'd be boring if we all agreed on everything! A unit of 10 Brutes with Jagged-hackas, Warchanted, with Inspiring Presence is a thing of beauty. I am interesting in trying out two units but without the double Inspiring Presence, I'm concerned about diminishing returns. Might look at running the Black Orc Big Boss as the General in this case. 

6 hours ago, Sneak said:

rough list with everyones input

Leaders
Orruk Megaboss (140)
- General
- Trait: Ravager
- Artefact: Talisman of Protection
Orruk Warchanter (80)
Orruk Warchanter (80)
Orruk Warchanter (80)
Black Orc Big Boss (100)
- Deff Choppas

Units
Orruk Brutes x 10 (360)
Orruk Brutes x 5 (180)
Orruk Brutes x 5 (180)
Orruk Gore Gruntas x 3 (180)
Orruk Ardboys x 20 (360)
Orruk Brutes x 5 (180)

Behemoths

War Machines

Batallions
Ironfist (60)

Total: 1980/2000
 

 

Interesting list. For your tournament do you have to note artefacts on the list? I always like Battle Brew on my Megaboss, 2's and 2's is so nice! You also have a second Artefact available there and note that one of your units will not get in the Battalion.

I mentioned having dual Ironfists above, one of the reasons was I don't have the time to convert and paint another Warchanter, otherwise I may well have gone with 3 like you have. I think that's a nice solid choice tbh.

Perhaps 2x 10 Ardboyz would be better, again dependant on which battleplans you're expecting.

Chris

[Sneak]

Chris,

ive only played one non pitched battle. I'm just new to AOS and will look In the book later. One of the games was against savage orks and was escalation with 3 objectives. I was outnumbered and he scored an extra point on objectives early on but I ended up tabling the army. On another note your replies are a little aggressive bud. 

[Vasshpit]

18 minutes ago, Sneak said:

On another note your replies are a little aggressive bud. 

Well, he does play Ironjawz.

[Chris Tomlin]

40 minutes ago, Sneak said:

Chris,

ive only played one non pitched battle. I'm just new to AOS and will look In the book later. One of the games was against savage orks and was escalation with 3 objectives. I was outnumbered and he scored an extra point on objectives early on but I ended up tabling the army. On another note your replies are a little aggressive bud. 

It's a shame you perceive it that way, I have just been trying to ascertain where you are with the game and how I might best assist you in developing your list/play. You have not projected yourself as a new player and have been on the defensive and evasive since your first reply.

Good luck in your Tournament.

[N_Watson]

@Sneak Everyone has really stepped up on this thread and provide some feedback on your list. There is at least 3 other threads on here, months old with pages of discussion where we have been trying different things. 

If anything, I perceived you to be a tad defensive. But the medium of text can often convey the wrong tone. 

If people are going to take time out their day to offer you some help, probably best to accept the feedback you asked for, say thank you and probe for further discussion. 

[EchoHavoc]

This is a list I'm thinking of running. Might drop the second boss for another warchanter. What do you guys think? What do people think is the optimal load out for Ardboys/Brutes?

 

LEADERS
Orruk Megaboss (140) General Artefact : Talisman of Protection - Command Trait : Ravager

Orruk Megaboss (140)

Orruk Warchanter (80)

Orruk Warchanter (80)

UNITS
Orruk Ardboys x 10 (180)

Orruk Ardboys x 10 (180)

Orruk Ardboys x 10 (180)

Orruk Ardboys x 10 (180)

Orruk Brutes x 5 (180)

Orruk Brutes x 5 (180)

Orruk Brutes x 5 (180)

Orruk Brutes x 5 (180)

BATTALIONS

Ironfist (60)

Ironfist (60)

WOUNDS: 166 TOTAL POINTS: 2000 / 2000 

[N_Watson]

15 minutes ago, EchoHavoc said:

This is a list I'm thinking of running. Might drop the second boss for another warchanter. What do you guys think? What do people think is the optimal load out for Ardboys/Brutes?

 

LEADERS
Orruk Megaboss (140) General Artefact : Talisman of Protection - Command Trait : Ravager

Orruk Megaboss (140)

Orruk Warchanter (80)

Orruk Warchanter (80)

UNITS
Orruk Ardboys x 10 (180)

Orruk Ardboys x 10 (180)

Orruk Ardboys x 10 (180)

Orruk Ardboys x 10 (180)

Orruk Brutes x 5 (180)

Orruk Brutes x 5 (180)

Orruk Brutes x 5 (180)

Orruk Brutes x 5 (180)

BATTALIONS

Ironfist (60)

Ironfist (60)

WOUNDS: 166 TOTAL POINTS: 2000 / 2000 

I like the list. Personally, I like the 10 man unit of brutes to give inspiring to and buff with warchanters. If you are running two formations, you probably want 2 melee heroes for the artifacts to be useful. 

If you made the brutes 2x10, one 20 man ardboys unit, swapped one megaboss for black orc big boss and go to one ironfist, you could get a 3rd warchanter.

As it is though, I think it is a really competitive list. 

Brutes in units of 5 take 1" range weapons and units of 10 take 2" has been well tested. 

Probably want a lot of shields in the ardboys but with only 20 brutes, you will likely want some killy weapons. 

[Nico]

Why MSU for melee?

It just reduces how much damage you deal in the all important first activation. Your second activation unit gets smashed up by the enemy before it can do anything and when that unit is 10 Ardboyz, it could be most of the unit dead. Furthermore, it means fewer models are benefitting from the Warchanter buffs. 

This is why I detest the Cabbage's Command Ability - it encourages MSU.

I would run the Ardboyz in at least 20s, back half shield and half double Choppas or Big Choppas.

I'd have at least one unit of 10 Brutes with the 2 inch range weapons.

[N_Watson]

7 minutes ago, Nico said:

Why MSU for melee?

It just reduces how much damage you deal in the all important first activation. Your second activation unit gets smashed up by the enemy before it can do anything and when that unit is 10 Ardboyz, it could be most of the unit dead. Furthermore, it means fewer models are benefitting from the Warchanter buffs. 

This is why I detest the Cabbage's Command Ability - it encourages MSU.

I would run the Ardboyz in at least 20s, back half shield and half double Choppas or Big Choppas.

I'd have at least one unit of 10 Brutes with the 2 inch range weapons.

I find myself using Waaagh! Less and less anyway. Wish I had more ardboys to run as unit of 20. Would be hard to move. 

[Dez]

Bigger units of Ardboyz are tougher to move, but they don't hit very hard even with 2Hander. I'm thinking stacked Warchanters might help that, though I've also been considering 2 weapons. Interesting idea doing half shields and half 2H/2W in front.

Waaagh is situational, for instance if I'm getting a first turn charge I'm going all out with attacks. The more battleshock I can cause in the first turn the better.

[Nico]

The problem with Brutes in my eyes is that they are maximum damage per point as a unit of 5 with one hero and one special weapon - so taking 10 Brutes is inefficient. Given this if I do add Ironjawz to my Gordrakk, then I'll probably be spamming Ardboyz with a few Pigs for flanking/objectives.

If the Brutes had a -2 rend weapon, then I'd probably consider them as more competitive. The only advantage I can see they have is if space is at a premium and the model size prevents Ardboyz getting to pile in. Ardboyz would not be efficient at surrounding and killing a monster either (cf StormVermin).

Another point is that Brutes suck hard against Mournguls while at Bravery 8 in all phases Ardboyz stand a chance.

Another observation is that Ironjawz compare very badly against Bullgor Stampede. I played against this at a tournament and it hit like a train. 3 Minotaurs are also 180 points, but are 7 attacks  4+, 3+, -2, 3 damage, with exploding attacks on 6s to wound. Their synergy is absolutely brutal. Brutes feel decidedly underwhelming by comparison.

[Vasshpit]

10 minutes ago, Nico said:

Another point is that Brutes suck hard against Mournguls while at Bravery 8 in all phases Ardboyz stand a chance.

I do believe we'll either see a Waaagh banner model or an allegiance artifact to remedy this.

[Sneak]

5 hours ago, N_Watson said:

@Sneak Everyone has really stepped up on this thread and provide some feedback on your list. There is at least 3 other threads on here, months old with pages of discussion where we have been trying different things. 

If anything, I perceived you to be a tad defensive. But the medium of text can often convey the wrong tone. 

If people are going to take time out their day to offer you some help, probably best to accept the feedback you asked for, say thank you and probe for further discussion. 

did you not see the lists I've posted from all your input. Which btw has been great thanks! 

And honestly Chris thanks for your detailed replies but you write like a douchebag <3. 

[N_Watson]

Pot kettle black orruk

?

[Soulsmith]

Yeah best to take ardboyz 50/50 shields and two handers, tow handers in front to make sure they can hit, shields to soak. Also come on dude, everyone, let's just mellow out.

 

What is this, Warseer?

[Sneak]

anybody want to sell some second hand ard boyz >:)!

[Sadysaneto]

By the teef of gork, i just cant put shields in orcs, lol

[Lord Biscuit]

5 hours ago, Nico said:

The problem with Brutes in my eyes is that they are maximum damage per point as a unit of 5 with one hero and one special weapon - so taking 10 Brutes is inefficient. Given this if I do add Ironjawz to my Gordrakk, then I'll probably be spamming Ardboyz with a few Pigs for flanking/objectives.

If the Brutes had a -2 rend weapon, then I'd probably consider them as more competitive. The only advantage I can see they have is if space is at a premium and the model size prevents Ardboyz getting to pile in. Ardboyz would not be efficient at surrounding and killing a monster either (cf StormVermin).

Another point is that Brutes suck hard against Mournguls while at Bravery 8 in all phases Ardboyz stand a chance.

Another observation is that Ironjawz compare very badly against Bullgor Stampede. I played against this at a tournament and it hit like a train. 3 Minotaurs are also 180 points, but are 7 attacks  4+, 3+, -2, 3 damage, with exploding attacks on 6s to wound. Their synergy is absolutely brutal. Brutes feel decidedly underwhelming by comparison.

 

Generally speaking I'm inclined to agree with you here. The unit champ can actually more damage then the rest of his unit and that burst damage falls away with the more that's taken. My experience are thus far casual and such, but I've often brutes have an incredible first turn combat but that often falls away quite rapidly as they take wounds. They might have a solid 15 wounds as a unit but they should be treated as glass cannons as rend -1 is fairly common. Doesn't help that my force only consisted of goregrunters and brutes at the time so I need a bit of hardwearing grit (10 brutes. yeah.)

 

Just the main fact that makes brutes mega expensive is the their built in reroll ability against 5 wounds and higher; Brutes generally murderlise any 5 wound models and the captains actually give the Boss a run for their money under those condictions.

 

About the weird sharman:

_{Even in lists involving the Weird Sharman, it's probably best to accept that he will have some brilliant matchups  (anything that lacks ranged is gonna get hurt) and some terrible ones (really shooting heavy armies) so I guess it's one of those units that will be really amazing or really poor depending on the list. Taking a wierdfist brings out both the best and the worst of the sharman}

 

_{That being said if they are choosing to try and get angles on the sharman they might overextend.  Especially if the weird nob is deployed on a flank as apposed to centrally; so that theres a good possibility that he won't be attacked all the time so at the very least he might have two turns of inflicting mortal wounds. More if he's lucky. Deploying him centrally might just expose him to more danger by archers on both flanks.}

[Soulsmith]

anybody want to sell some second hand ard boyz >!

Fortunately you can usually find them cheap enough on eBay, if you don't mind square bases.

Also what do people usually use as shields for them?

[Sadysaneto]

13 minutes ago, Soulsmith said:

Fortunately you can usually find them cheap enough on eBay, if you don't mind square bases.

Also what do people usually use as shields for them?

Elfs and dwarfs, mostly.