Fanatics - How do you all play them?

[JustPlay-Ritchie]

"Release the Fanatics!: Instead of setting up this unit normally, you can place it to one side and say that it is set up in hiding. If you do so, secretly note down one of your units of Moonclan Grots with at least five models for this unit to hide in. At the start of any charge phase you can release the fanatics: set up the Grot Fanatics within 1" of the unit that is hiding them. The Fanatics can then charge, even if it isn’t your charge phase."

My Questions :

I can buy them in units of 1 and I then want to put multiple Fanatic units in one of my Moonclan Grot units, I then want to release them staggered as I see fit. I don't see any issue with this, now is it ruled differently anywhere? 

If I have say 9 units of 1 fanatic that is also 9 drops for deployment (unfortunately) same as above that's how that works never ruled any different? 

I know I am more just making statements here but checking I am not going mad reading this

[gnaleinad]

@JustPlay-Ritchie

You are correct in the deployment. A fanatic is a powerful charge blocking asset.
I shall explain the use of Multi units of single Fanatics and why it should rightfully use up a drop/set-up in deployment.

1. Deploy 6 units of 1 Fanatic in one Moonclan Grots.
2. Play game.
3. Start of ANY charge phase, release 1 unit of 1 Fanatic and charge enemy unit(s)!
   Depending on the number of enemies and result of the charge, there will be multiple options:
   1. (if charge failed) Release another 1 unit of 1 Fanatics to charge that same unit.
   2. (if many enemy units can charge you) Release another 1 unit of 1 Fanatics to charge another enemy unit.
   3. Repeat the two step above until satisfied.
4. Opponent then check which units are still eligible to charge. Any of his unit within 3" of those Fanatic are not able to charge.

Which is to say when you release a Fanatic, it charges! Then you release another, which charges! One at a time. You do not release them all at one time.
The proper way to use ability in AOS is to complete the ability of the current unit in the proper steps before activating another unit's ability.

 

@Bowlzee

I call a spade a spade, and I wasn't attacking. I said that he could be either, it was still an observation and question, not yet a judgement.
I have proof that he did what he did.
Yes my choice of word is rather tasteless. I should had just use " act dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage " and “ ignorance is no excuse ”   
Merely pointing out something I discovered. (I have screenshots in case there are changes and should you need it)
See here => 

 

@grunnlock

My interpretation of the rules? Hmmm. The FAQs already cleared it out. Whoever that is still arguing that this is open to interpretation clearly isn't following this thread.

I do not know you, but a willingness to admit that you might had made a mistake when other point out to you is commendatory. It is also a show of sound character.
But when others point out to you that you may have made a serious mistake, yet you pass it off as "it is just a game" or "everyone does it" to reride the intention, it is to express contempt about the discussion.

Flaming is a hostile and insulting interaction between Internet users, often involving the use of profanity. I did not flamed.
I merely suggested that you could be either a dishonest person or a person who made a major mistake without knowing, but the truth is something only you will know.

 

We are all here to learn. If you can point out to me and make me learn, I will be willing to listen.

[Sarkazim]

2 hours ago, gnaleinad said:

The FAQs clarified those special setup units must also be included in the alternating.

Where?  You say it's there, I say it's still open.  Neither of us have rules, but keep on posting the same thing over and over again like it's going to make a difference.  It's not there.  A player is finished setting up after he has declared where all of his units are deployed (hidden, underground, etc), is still just as valid as a player being finished setting up after he has placed his last model on the table.

Player 1 Sets-up one unit.
Player 2 Sets-up one unit.
Player 1 Sets-up 2nd unit.
Player 2 Sets-up 2nd unit.
Player 1 has no more units to setup on the table, we'll say he has one Assassin.  He chooses to hidden deploy, and writes it down.  
* You're saying this has to count.  There is no rule stating that it does, only that it can.   
Player 2 Sets-up has no more units to deploy.  Since player 1 had finished placing all of his models first, he allows player 1 to choose who goes first.

This, whether you disagree with it or not, is how I've seen it played in both videos, watching games, and playing in them.  There isn't any discussion really.  One player simply looks at the other and says 'Well you finished first, are you going to go first?'.  I'm not the only one who plays it that way.  If this isn't reason enough for you to see that it CAN be interpreted another way then we're done.  

I'm not here to convince you.  Just showing that it's not a watertight argument.  It's not intentionally finding a loophole or reading in a specific way.  It's also not narrowing it down to the point where it has to be done so specifically, forcing others to see just the one way.

[chord]

I think it counts as set up.  The can in the special ability phase is not saying that the special ability "can" count as a setup.  It's referring to the model.  You don't have to choose to use their ability to not be placed on the board during set up.

Example:   During set up, you have two choices

1. You can set up as normal
2. You can set up using their special ability which is off the board.

It's all context.  The can is for the ability.

 

[Nico]

Quote

A player is finished setting up after he has declared where all of his units are deployed (hidden, underground, etc), is still just as valid as a player being finished setting up after he has placed his last model on the table.
 

On an aside, it's worth noting that you can stop deploying more units at any time (this is something that has survived from the early days of no limits on what you could bring other than the sudden death rules). For example, if you were both on a similar number of drops, then you could forgo deploying a cheap chaff unit just to stop deploying first, so you can secure the choice of first turn.

[StealthKnightSteg]

I play Stormcast, every unit I have I set up .. be it set up on the battlefield or set up in the Celestial Realm, both are still a set up as it's named in the ability. And both count towards the number of set-ups. For me it's just as simple as this. No more and no less. Only exception for me is really summoning units those are created and not already "somewhere"

[gnaleinad]

@Sarkazim

I am not flaming you here. 

There is a point to all these. in the recent Blood and Glory tournament the 3rd place winner did not deploy his Fanatics as per the rules. He has 11 units in his list but only set up 8 units during deployment, winning him the choice of first turn many times.

If he was aware of it and did it, he is an awful cheater. 

If he was clueless and ignorant of this rule in deployment, it's foul play. 

The power to decide who takes first turn can win or lose game.

Especially if you have a Stonehorn with Battlebrew that is capable of doing up to 38" to deal around 15-25 wounds

[Nico]

Quote

There is a point to all these. in the recent Blood and Glory tournament the 3rd place winner did not deploy his Fanatics as per the rules. He has 11 units in his list but only set up 8 units during deployment, winning him the choice of first turn many times.

If he was aware of it and did it, he is an awful cheater. 

If he was clueless and ignorant of this rule in deployment, it's foul play. 

Firstly - he's not a cheat.

Secondly, if this was the two Livestream Games, then presumably no-one mentioned this or challenged (i.e. his (smart) opponents and the (knowledgeable) commentators didn't mention this). Maybe they also play it that Fanatics don't count as a deployment - maybe it's not as clear cut as the literal wording might suggest (it's only the second time that the words "set up" appears in the rule that tips it that way). What is clear is that GW now take a more purposive interpretation of the rules than many players do (some of those with an 8th Edition mindset).

Thirdly, other people have commented on the fact that it's difficult to tell exactly what is going on on the Top Table Livestream, because you cannot hear the players themselves - in relation to The Warlords.

I'm also pretty sure that @grunnlockplayed Escalation the same way I did (which would be 11 units for wave counting purposes - I was 10), which is where it really would make a difference.

I'd further add that it actually made my army stronger for having 10 units in that battleplan - since it made me 4, 4, 2 (which was better than 3, 3, 1). Also as a reminder, my Nasty Skulkers were in a battalion, so I could single drop all bar 2 models if I wanted to and be 3-5 drops.

 

[Bowlzee]

[MOD HAT] 

Can we refrain from attacking other members please.  Points can be made without direct attacks. Thanks

[grunnlock]

On 03/12/2016 at 7:53 AM, gnaleinad said:

If he was aware of it and did it, he is an awful cheater. 

That escalated quickly! Don't forget it's a game mate; you're not playing your life here.

To add up on that, everyone at B&G played fanatics the way I played them. I was on the live stream twice and we discussed rules a lot. That one never came up and nobody was surprised about me using fanatics like that.

I understand you have your interpretation of rules, but there's no need to flame people for not thinking your way. 

[Sarkazim]

2 hours ago, rokapoke said:

Except it's clearly NOT the same rule. The Runesmiter specifies "Instead of setting up an Auric Runesmiter and up to one other Fyreslayer unit" (emphasis mine)... the Assassin specifies " Instead of setting up the Assassin normally" -- so clearly, the 2x Runesmiters plus 2x other units = 2 drops, whereas 2x Assassins plus 2x other units = 4 drops.

I wasn't comparing the Runesmiter rules to the Assassin/Fanatic rule in this instance.  I was just pointing out that using the Runesmiter and another unit as a single drop is what is appears to be causing confusion in this case.  It's not my intent to dictate how that particular rule is played.  Not my army, not my problem.

1 hour ago, gnaleinad said:

Such creative reading/interpretation of the word "instead" to bend core game rules is just sad. "Instead" had never meant "Ignore".

First, there is no need for the put down.  I'm not an idiot.  I FULLY see where you are coming from and why.  I've got no issue with that being a valid interpretation.

The FAQ only tells us that set-up is typically when a unit is placed on the table during deployment, but can (Not MUST) also refer to units being deployed in a location elsewhere.  Nothing in that entire section ever addresses when a player is completed being setup, for purposes of going first.

I'm going to maintain that it remains ambiguous, because there remains TWO possible outcomes depending on application/interpretation.

-----

When it's their turn, each player picks a unit to set-up.  Typically, this is when the unit is placed on the table.  If the unit is part of a Battalion then the controlling player may elect to set-up the entire Battalion, or deploy them individually.  If a unit in a Battalion has special deployment rules, then they may declare that the unit is using its special rules during deployment.  

A) The player that finishes setting up first, counting any DECLARATION of special deployments, always chooses who takes the first turn in the first battle round.

B) The player that finishes setting up first, by being the first one to finish placing his models on the table, always chooses who takes the first turn in the first battle round.

-----

Nothing in the FAQ addresses when to count a unit as being setup for purposes of determining who goes first.  This could be limited to the actual placement or be expanded to the actual declaration of when/where/how a special unit is deployed.  It's still up to us as players to determine which of these two VALID interpretations were going to allow.  Just like you're saying that a player hasn't completed setting up until he has declared what he is doing with every unit when he comes to that actual unit, the other player can legally say the same against it.  He's not setting up the unit normally (placing it on the table), and when he chooses to deploy in another location, he can decide if that is going to count. 

Out of the two, your interpretation is undeniably the stronger of the two arguments.  Out of the two, it's also the least common way it is played.  Setting up first is typically the first person to finish placing his models on the table. I'm not trying to say that A or B is the correct way, especially since B is the more common of the two that I've experienced.  I've maintained that throughout this discussion, and admitted that I've got ZERO issue playing it either way.  

What I'm not doing, is invalidating an interpretation, by declaring that setup is ONLY complete after a player has declared how his last, and final unit chooses to deploy.  I run 4-5 units of Dark Riders and 4 Assassins on my list.  While I havent been playing long, I have played with 4 completely different groups, and have YET to have one of them count my Assassins individually against me setting up first.  While the one interpretation may not agree with yours, I don't envy your attempt to bring everyone around to that way of thinking.  Especially without any definitive wording to support it.

 

[DeadlySarcasm]

@gnaleinad

I suggest you take it down a few now. You've already received a warning for your content in this thread, be respectful to others regardless of the issue at hand.

Thanks

[Rusty]

Doesn't the Rules of One prevent a unit from being the target of the same ability more than once? Shouldnt the Fanatic Rule from one unit prevent another unit of Fanatics from targeting the same grot unit?

ie: I hide Fanatics in a unit of Grots, since that Grot unit is now affected by the Fanatic Special Rule, that Grot unit cannot hide another unit of Fanatics because they are already the target of the first unit of Fanatics.

 

Am I interpreting this wrong?

[rokapoke]

1 hour ago, Rusty said:

Doesn't the Rules of One prevent a unit from being the target of the same ability more than once?

I don't see that written in any of the rules of one...

[Rusty]

58 minutes ago, rokapoke said:

I don't see that written in any of the rules of one...

100% correct. My apologies, I thought I had read something about units being unable to be affected by the same ability more than once but I must have been mistaken. My apologies.

[Sarkazim]

On 10/10/2016 at 7:33 AM, JustPlay-Ritchie said:

If I have say 9 units of 1 fanatic that is also 9 drops for deployment (unfortunately) same as above that's how that works never ruled any different? 

I know I am more just making statements here but checking I am not going mad reading this

You're not required to count them as 9 different drops.  There isn't any rule requiring them to count as drops.

[JustPlay-Ritchie]

Well no clear answer to most of this but glad the discussion has came back up again and importantly some examples of how they have been played in tournaments (right or wrong)

So seems that in all cases people are letting them be staggered out, IE 3 units of 1 in a Night Goblin Unit I can deploy 1 turn 1 and 2 turn if i wish? 

The deployment seems split I still think they count as drops as my first statement and think I would rule that way but I try to follow any official tournament ruling in this Case GW ones so the upcoming GT heats for example.

 

[Donal]

5 hours ago, JustPlay-Ritchie said:

Well no clear answer to most of this but glad the discussion has came back up again and importantly some examples of how they have been played in tournaments (right or wrong)

So seems that in all cases people are letting them be staggered out, IE 3 units of 1 in a Night Goblin Unit I can deploy 1 turn 1 and 2 turn if i wish? 

The deployment seems split I still think they count as drops as my first statement and think I would rule that way but I try to follow any official tournament ruling in this Case GW ones so the upcoming GT heats for example.

 

thanks for the summary on this. was super confused reading the thread here (which led me to clarify with the TO for an upcoming tournament).

[gnaleinad]

The recent Fanatics FAQ state that you must release ALL Fanatics within 1" of the unit. Firstly this prevent congo line setup shenanigansss. Next, this addressed the issue of bring one unit of 6 Fanatics but release them 1 at a time.

They also answered the usage of multiple surprise units, that you activate one unit at a time and complete the charge/attack/surprise before picking another surprise.

The setup section in the FAQs is still as clear as day for alot of people. I wonder why are people still playing it wrong?

[Sarkazim]

On 10/10/2016 at 7:51 AM, Nico said:

Yes - you can stagger them out - the downside is that you have to activate them singly, so your opponent will kill all the other ones. You have to pop them all out before rolling the first charge roll, so you cannot pop one, fail the charge, then pop another etc. until you block the charge.

Here you go doing it again...

There is NO rule that forces a player to pop them all out before rolling the first charge roll.  That breaks the instructions on how to resolve multiple abilities.  We are told to do the EXACT opposite of what you're saying a player CANNOT do.  Stop telling players that they have to place a model outside of the ability, before using the ability that includes placement as part of it's use.  NOT before it is used.

After being placed, "The fanatics can then charge, even if it isn't your charge phase."  This is an unbroken chain of events that occurs when the ability is used.  The fanatics don't HAVE to charge.  Once the controlling player has charged with the Fanatics, Failed the Charge, or declined to charge, is the use of the ability concluded.  Then he moves to the next unit and repeats the process, again, including the placement of the fanatic unit.

Keep the Game simple.  When a Fanatic unit uses it's 'Release the Fanatics!' ability, just follow all the instructions for the ability.  If there is another unit that can do the same thing, then follow the same pattern.  Pick the next unit (ie. choose the order that they are used.), and follow through with the entire process just like the first, which includes placement.
 

7 hours ago, gnaleinad said:

Do you how broken it will be if Fanatics deployment is with the Grot?
According to your logic, for 600point I can deploy 40 Moonclan Grots with 4 units of Fanatics[5, 5, 1, 1] in one drop. If my army have 11 units I just shave off 4 deployment.
 

Our group used the simplified rule as well, just to speed up game play.  I already know where my Assassins are going before I place the first model down.  As I gain more experience, this may change.  It's only to determine who gets to go first though right?  

While you do have a point about 'shaving' units off deployment, it's not nearly as broken as you think.  Battalions do the same thing since they're usually deployed as one.  So a method of shaving units from deploying already legally exists, as there is nothing stopping a player from dropping everything in a Battalion as one Deployment.  There is a tactical Tug of War going on here as you can now deploy based off of him deploying his battalion, and plan to go second, etc.  Sylvaneth, and Seraphon are two armies that REALLY take advantage of this that I can think of off the top of my head.

With Fanatics, it's a bit different because first of all, there isn't an FAQ that states that the units are ever deployed as one, like Battalions do.  In all fairness, if the player IS deploying them as one, then they should already have a note how many Fanatics are in the unit before deploying the unit.  If he wants to decide after seeing where your units go, then they should count as a separate deployment.  Just like normal units, I agree that the sizes must be written down on the list prior to assigning them to a unit.  This is all just 'being a good sport' at this point.

If a player were to be that hardline about it counting as deployment, then he'd absolutely be right and it should be played that way.  I've found that those players aren't very common for most games, but the tournament scene could be different.

[Nico]

I consider them conjoined units which don't count as an extra drop from the host unit (cf. the Runesmiter and his unit count as one drop, the assassin in his unit, the Warpgrinder and his unit - where the rules indicate that both are deployed at the same time). Doing otherwise will give away where the fanatics are for one thing. 

Yes - you can stagger them out - the downside is that you have to activate them singly, so your opponent will kill all the other ones. You have to pop them all out before rolling the first charge roll, so you cannot pop one, fail the charge, then pop another etc. until you block the charge.

What you cannot do is write 12 fanatics on your list and then deploy them as whatever you like - you have to specify the units exactly on the list, so 6, 3, 1, 1, 1. Then write down secretly which units they are in before each game.

If you take 6, you can conga them towards the enemy when set up, which can make it easier to charge (the rule doesn't say deploy the models - compare with the Escalation battlplan where the models all have to be within 3 inches of the edge - so no congaing). 

Typically people have say 3 singles as charge blockers and a 6 to deploy in your own turn to activate first and kill something.

 

[Turragor]

I recently faced fanatics for the first time in a tourney so I maybe shouldnt share my 'expertise' but, if I interpret nico right, I agree with him but disagree with your interpretation (as i said I am a little fuzzy on what exactly is being said).

My interpretation:

The fanatics are a unit in a another unit. All fanatics in one unit constitute a single group of fanatics or (this is what I am unsure of) can be multiple units.

I am not 100% but thats my interpretation.

Theyd need to FAQ a single unit of Fanatics per unit to clear that up if thats not what they mean.

 

[Nico]

That part of what I said is just a recent consequence of the General's Handbook - i.e. you have to write the definitive units with model counts on your list - i.e. 3 x 10 Bloodreavers, not 30 Bloodreavers and then you have to deploy them that way. This is obviously more important for Battleline units. 

I wouldn't insist on it if someone had derped and just written 12 Fanatics on the list, but you should in principle split them into units on the list.

[Turragor]

I would agree with that.

[JustPlay-Ritchie]

Sweet guys thanks for helping me get that straight in my head. 

[gnaleinad]

You set up each unit one at a time. No unit should be setup as a group unless it is a battalion or the special rules say so.

The abilities of Fanatics says that "instead of setting up" meaning if you want to place them on the table you still can.

A Moonclan Grot and a Fanatics is two different unit with different Warscroll. It must be deployed separately and not as one drop.