How to grow GA: Death

[AGPO]

Death is by far the smallest grand alliance in terms of both war scrolls and battle tomes. Part of the issue is that they're working from just two older armies, who had quite a bit in common to start with. With this in mind, here are some ideas on how I'd like to see GW expand the death factions. All thoughts welcome.

Soulblight Vampires

There's scope for a really elite army here. By expanding Bloodknights to include foot knights, monstrous cavalry and potentially some missile units, you'd have an alternative to the stereotypical undead horde. There's also the opportunity to add thralls and mortal followers/worshipers of the vampires, going with the new fluff of vampires not being so black and white evil. There's also rooom to bring back something of the old vampire bloodlines, with Blood Dragons as your combat monsters, Nechrachs as your sorcerers, Lahmians as your disrupters and Von Carsteins as your all rounder.

Deathrattle

I've always been a fan of the skeleton legions side of the tomb kings, and it would be great to see that back, albeit matching the Age of Sigmar aesthetic. This is the most logical place for artillery to sit, with skeletons manning various war machines. Wights could also be expanded similar to the tomb kings to include lesser heroes. Essentially replacing most of the old tomb king units with Age of Sigmar alternatives. I also like the idea of more powerful figures maintaining more of their personality. This would make them a good counterpart to stormcasts - heroes brought back from death to fight, die and be resurrected again and again in the name of their master.

Deadwalkers

As with skeles if any corpse can be resurrected then that leaves huge potential for monstrous infantry (zombie ogors), zombie beasts (dire wolves, zombie dragons) etc. Also room for other reanimated body archetypes (Frankenstein's monster anyone?) and 'augmented' zombies similar to the wracks of the dark eldar.

Nighthaunt

Plenty of scope here. I'd love to see some possessed figures, and perhaps even a unit or character with the ability to possess others. Hexwraiths becoming a full unit again would also be cool, as would a casket of souls-type war engine. Perhaps some larger ghost-daemons, like the Staypuft Marshmallow man?

Deathmages

Aside from being such a tiny faction, it bugs me that three of the six factions in GA: Death have to have the word death in their names. I'd like to see these guys split up between the different factions. Your classical necromancer fits best with the deadwalkers, perhaps alongside a mad scientist type who creates flesh-golems and automatons. Deathrattle suits a high priest like the old heirophants and liche priests, vampires can include their own wizard characters (Nechrarchs?)

Deathlords

I'd love to see some of the other Mortarchs make a comeback, especially Vlad and Isabella. Aside from that I think these guys work well as an elite which unites the grand alliance, so I'd leave them well alone, along with Flesheaters who already have a battletome.

New Factions

I'd love to see something done with constructs empowered by the souls of the dead. Mortal followers of Nagash (death cults?) would also be very cool. Werewolves are one horror trope that has never been properly explored in Warhammer to my mind. Obviously many of us would love to see Tomb Kings make a comeback too.

[MechaBriZilla]

25 minutes ago, AGPO said:

Death is by far the smallest grand alliance in terms of both war scrolls and battle tomes. Part of the issue is that they're working from just two older armies, who had quite a bit in common to start with. With this in mind, here are some ideas on how I'd like to see GW expand the death factions. All thoughts welcome.

Soulblight Vampires

There's scope for a really elite army here. By expanding Bloodknights to include foot knights, monstrous cavalry and potentially some missile units, you'd have an alternative to the stereotypical undead horde. There's also the opportunity to add thralls and mortal followers/worshipers of the vampires, going with the new fluff of vampires not being so black and white evil. There's also rooom to bring back something of the old vampire bloodlines, with Blood Dragons as your combat monsters, Nechrachs as your sorcerers, Lahmians as your disrupters and Von Carsteins as your all rounder.

This has really been my hobby horse since AoS rolled out.  Death needs a bit of TLC, and can't come soon enough imo.

I agree here.  Blood lines are the way to go for AoS.  I want variety in my Vampy options.  And why not!  We already have two distinct types of Oruuk, Vampiric blood lines would be great. In fact, I think we already have on distinct blood line in the Abhorant Ghoul Kings.  If they keep in line with the general structure of the Flesh Eaters Court, we could expect each blood line to have a few true vamps, with a variety of corrupted followers.  What I don't want to see from the Soulblight faction is them becoming the sole power holders in the GA.  Not that I didn't like the Vampire Counts in WHFB, but I want something with a bit more variety and imagination in AoS.

30 minutes ago, AGPO said:

Deathrattle

I've always been a fan of the skeleton legions side of the tomb kings, and it would be great to see that back, albeit matching the Age of Sigmar aesthetic. This is the most logical place for artillery to sit, with skeletons manning various war machines. Wights could also be expanded similar to the tomb kings to include lesser heroes. Essentially replacing most of the old tomb king units with Age of Sigmar alternatives. I also like the idea of more powerful figures maintaining more of their personality. This would make them a good counterpart to stormcasts - heroes brought back from death to fight, die and be resurrected again and again in the name of their master.

I hadn't really thought of this, I mean Deathrattle being sort of counter point to the Stormcast.  That said, I like it.  I think for Deathrattle to function as an independent faction, they will require, the heroes at least, to maintain some portion of their living personalities.  Perhaps corrupted in a similar way as the Stormcasts, as the are reborn to unlife...  Not sure about that last point though.  For fluff purposes, I think the skellies need to be more than re-animated minions of a wizard, brought back with necromancy.  They need to have some part of who they were left in those bones.  Even if just a fragment.  I think this is hinted at in GA:D when they talk about the Skellies going about their daily routines.  Still harvesting crops, and forging weapons, in a silent parody of life.

35 minutes ago, AGPO said:

Deadwalkers

As with skeles if any corpse can be resurrected then that leaves huge potential for monstrous infantry (zombie ogors), zombie beasts (dire wolves, zombie dragons) etc. Also room for other reanimated body archetypes (Frankenstein's monster anyone?) and 'augmented' zombies similar to the wracks of the dark eldar.

This is difficult one.  I mean, I see lots of options for models, but they need a 'reason'.  The best I've been able to come up with at this point, is that they could be the AoS version of Tyrannid.  

I know... Hear me out though.  In the zombie trope, one of the the mainstays is some common cause for the dead to rise.  Could be a chemical, a curse, a virus, etc.  In AoS we have already seen examples of self awareness in traditionally unaware things.  In Balance of Power, I think, there is a malevolent storm that sweeps across the plains of Aqushy iirc.  Some similar force, could be the cause of Zombies, and provide them with a sort of limited hive mind.

Otherwise, I really don't know what to do here.  As much as I hate saying it, traditional zombies, just don't have a good way to become an independent faction.  In which case, they would have been better off never separating them out in the first place.  And, though I'd hate to see any of our factions rolled into another, if we keep traditional zombies, they probably should be... Or, perhaps made an option for all factions within death.

42 minutes ago, AGPO said:

Nighthaunt

Plenty of scope here. I'd love to see some possessed figures, and perhaps even a unit or character with the ability to possess others. Hexwraiths becoming a full unit again would also be cool, as would a casket of souls-type war engine. Perhaps some larger ghost-daemons, like the Staypuft Marshmallow man?

So much potential here.  Really quite unlimited.  I mean, anything that lives has a spirit, which could be tied for any number of reasons back to the mortal realm.  I particularly like the statues animated by the spirits of the living, but that's very Tomb Kings.  But honestly, the models don't appeal to me (as of yet) and so, I haven't put a ton of thought into this.

 

44 minutes ago, AGPO said:

Deathmages

Aside from being such a tiny faction, it bugs me that three of the six factions in GA: Death have to have the word death in their names. I'd like to see these guys split up between the different factions. Your classical necromancer fits best with the deadwalkers, perhaps alongside a mad scientist type who creates flesh-golems and automatons. Deathrattle suits a high priest like the old heirophants and liche priests, vampires can include their own wizard characters (Nechrarchs?)

I think this one has great potential.  Though it is currently small.  I'd like to see them remain an independent faction, and made fully playable.  I've posted on this before, and you can dig up those thoughts, if you like, but here it is in short.

I'd like to see the Deathmages as sort of their own Arcane brotherhood.  With their foot units as the Acolytes of the faction. They could appear as sort of an elite ranged unit, able to fire one or two different types of spells, with specific named effects, but not wizards per se from a rules standpoint.  Add to this many 'Frankenstein's monster' flesh golems and such, and you have your faction.  No Vamps please...  It's a bias, but again, I want Death to avoid the feeling of having the Vamps at the top of the power tree.

48 minutes ago, AGPO said:

Deathlords

I'd love to see some of the other Mortarchs make a comeback, especially Vlad and Isabella. Aside from that I think these guys work well as an elite which unites the grand alliance, so I'd leave them well alone, along with Flesheaters who already have a battletome.

I'd like a similar treatment as the Everchosen Battletome.  Not exactly a fully fleshed out faction.  Just give us the rest of the mortarchs.  Krell is my personal favorite, but I wouldn't mind entirely new Mortarchs. One idea I've heard batted around is the idea of using non-death characters from the old world. Now in the service of Nagash.  My vote? Balthazar Gelt.  He was going down that path anyway, iirc, and I like the idea of a Nyarlathotep/Black Pharraoh type character out of the H.P. Lovecraft universe.

52 minutes ago, AGPO said:

New Factions

I'd love to see something done with constructs empowered by the souls of the dead. Mortal followers of Nagash (death cults?) would also be very cool. Werewolves are one horror trope that has never been properly explored in Warhammer to my mind. Obviously many of us would love to see Tomb Kings make a comeback too.

 So much potential, right?

I agree, lets see some new things.  I especially like the idea of Werewolves, they are one of my favorite horror tropes.  That said, FW has some sort of Skinchanger, or Skinwolves in Chaos. And, it fits if you think about it.  Shape shifting monsters of death... Sort of Chaos-y.  That said, I want them for GA:D since... well, you know... I don't collect Chaos, and don't really want to start.  But would be forced too if Werewolves became a full faction under their banner.

As for Tomb Kings..  I have my own conspiracy theory about them.  I personally want them to return, but primarily in the Realm of Hysh (light), and under the aegis of order, not death.  Think about it.  There culture is based in ritual and symbolism, like the ancient Egyptians they are based on.  So Hysh, a realm of symbolism, is a perfect home.  And they are an extremely orderly society, maybe to it's natural extreme where final order and stasis is set in Death.  It would do a bit to blur GA lines a bit.  Also, Settra never died in The End Times.  If we were to return with a re-imagined Tomb Kings, he would certainly not serve Nagah, because, as we all know....   SETTRA DOES NOT SERVE!  SETTRA RULES!!!!   I mean common! Settra defied Nagash, was defeated, was given his body back by the Chaos gods.  Told the Chaos gods to get bent, then saved Nagash, his mortal enemy, just to prove how BA he was.  He needs to return, and he should serve no one.  He could come back as a truly Neutral faction too, just not under Nagash.  

(I wonder how many times I've written this last paragraph...  Maybe if I keep posting it, it will become true someday.  But for now, it is happily my own Head Cannon.)

[AGPO]

Love your ideas @MechaBriZilla! I'd never have thought of putting the Tomb Kings in order, but actually it works really nicely. One worry I have about making all the WFB successor factions fully playable with their own battle tome is that it becomes too much for GW to maintain. If Lizarmen, or even Stormcast or Bloodbound had received the same treatment, they'd all be four or five factions right now. Personally I think it would have made a lot of sense to combine Deathrattle, Deadwalkers and Deathmages into a single faction. Ditto Ordo Draconis and Serpentis. The various stealth/scout elf factions such as Dark Riders, Assassins, Shadow warriors etc would also have made a good larger faction. But I digress and we're only three posts into the thread!

[MechaBriZilla]

I agree. 

AoS is huge!  And, I love it.  I want it to stay huge and evolving.  

That means that some factions won't be able to get as much attention as others.  But if you think about it, that's not really a bad thing.  If they only release a single battletome per faction ever, and then do all other updates as campaigns and fluff dictate, using new Battalion Warscrolls and such, they can maintain a larger number of factions than before.  When a particular faction get's a cult following that wants an update, make them a part of the next campaign.  Take, for example, Beastclaw raiders.  They don't ever need to redo that book.  They could, conceivably even use the same models for many different factions/Battletomes.  But even if they don't, anytime they want to update the lore, models, options, etc. Drop it in a campaign book.  Make the options available at low/no cost online or in the app if you choose not to buy the campaign book, boom renewed interest in Beastclaw Raiders, w/o having to write a book with only niche level interest, for only one of many small factions.  Everyone gets what they want.  BR get an update, new rules, and such to bring them in line with current meta. GW doesn't spend a bunch of money printing a book for a small set of players, and the meta and fluff are pushed forward.

I'm not sure how it would all work in practice, but I have a sneaking suspicion this is the way GW is going, based on the number of new 40k factions, the increase in campaign type books, and the lack of new Codex's for older armies in 40k.  I for one would totally welcome it.

[AGPO]

I love the idea and I think it could work nicely, provided you get increased uptake on the app. One of the issues with 8th ed was the rules creep. By End Times Archaon, the rules for my army were spread across four army books, four end times books and one Forge World supplement. The other issue would be that it's a large number of minis to keep in production. That said, I see nothing wrong with doing some limited runs, then perhaps featuring some White Dwarf articles on how to kit bash options that are out of print. Heck, we could do with that for death at the moment. I'm sure some people want conversion guides/bits for skeleton archers, necropolis knights and the like.

[ElectricPaladin]

I seriously hope that GW has some market researchers hanging out here. Given how often we talk about where to go with Grand Alliance: Death, I think it's a clear indication that the community is really eager to see more for them.

I've posted it before, but my take on this alliance's subfactions is...

Deadwalkers

Zombies are boring.

But seriously, I don't really think we're likely to see this faction get much in the way of variety. Giant zombified beast? Maybe. But we've already got zombie people, zombie predatory animals, and a giant cart full of zombies. What other permutations are possible, given the limitations already written into the fluff (ie. that zombies are brainless minions raised by necromancy)?

Probably this one will remain an Alliance-level force, not really independently fieldable. In other words, a... dead end.

Deathlords

I don't think this faction needs to be expanded. It actually makes sense as an incomplete faction. After all, when the lords of the Alliance go to war, it will usually be at the head of soldiers drawn from all the member factions. On the rare occasion that they take part in battle with just their favored shock troopers, well, it makes perfect sense for that to be a limited list, because that's only going to happen under limited circumstances.

Deathmages

This faction is in a weird place. Like the Deathlords, they represent - by concept - a small slice of the Alliance. You aren't going to see an army of necromancers. That's not what necromancers do.

Therefore, I don't think it's likely that we'll see necromancers get "native" Battleline units. You can run Deathmages as your leaders (or as support) in an Alliance-level army.

I don't really think that the Deathmages will get the Deadwalkers folded into them. The Deathmages are the faction of necromancers. Zombies aren't necromancers, and they aren't even the only servants necromancers use - just the most common. And if you want to duplicate a "Deathmages" faction with necromancers and whatever servants you chose to have them use... the Grand Alliance: Death rules we already have do that just fine.

Deathrattle

Lots of room for additions, from skeleton archers to skeletal warbeasts to skeleton mages. I bet we see a major Ironjawz-style reboot for them soon, complete with new kits.

Nighthaunt

Currently, this faction makes no sense, as it's missing the biggest Malignant (mortis engine) and includes both a wizard-buffing unit (black coach) and no wizards. I also think that this one will see a major release with new kits.

Soulblight

The vampires are in a weird place. In the old Vampire Counts faction, they were basically on the top of the heap of a bunch of necromantically raised mooks. Most of the time, most of your army was ghosts, zombies, skeletons, and deranged cannibals. The vampires were limited to your lords, heroes, and super-elite horsemen. As a result, we don't really have the underpinnings of a faction here. If you want to run that kind of army - vampires on top, random necro-flunkies doing the dying - you can do that with what we've got, using a Grand Alliance army.

That said, they are cool, so maybe we'll see them get some kind of expansion? It would need to be another big release, though, with several new kits.

I wouldn't hold my breath. Unlike the Tomb Kings, I think that Soulblight getting some dedicated loving attention is a solid maybe, but they will take so much more work than the other factions that I don't think it will happen any time soon.

Flesh Eaters

Done and done. Maybe they'll get more stuff somewhere down the line? They don't really need anything, though.

Tomb Kings

I hate to say it, but I wouldn't hold my breath. While it seems weird that GW would throw away all their neat kits, including models that were young when 8th died, I also think it would be weird for GW to kill them off, let them languish long enough to alienate all their players, and then bother to bring them back. And check it out: two of the Mortarchs - Arkhan and Neferata - are technically from this time period, but neither of their new models have a Tomb Kingsian aesthetic, which seems to me like a clear sign that GW isn't interested in pursuing the Egyptophile mummy thing any further.

I'd love to be surprised... but I doubt it.

Entirely New Factions

I don't see a lot of room for it in the lore. We always knew that the Wood Elves, for example, combined some actual Elves and some weirdo tree spirits, so it isn't all that odd to see the latter get their own faction. As far as I know, there isn't anything else in Death to branch out of, and there isn't a lot of real world inspiration to draw from that isn't covered.

[shinros]

I personally feel overall Death is a weird place and I suspect that GW won't use the factions from the grand alliance but do something slightly different. Or even fold certain factions into each other with new models. 

Grand alliance death is in the RUT and I don't believe deathmages will be their own faction when their description is pretty much "Humans who raise dead things to fight for them." Vampires, Lichie's and wights will always been on top of the foot chain the whole point of the Deathmage description is to aspire to these states. 

Soulblight same problem can't really see how you will make an interesting army out of that without other units to supplement them. They will need more than elite foot vampires in my opinion. I believe this is the reason why Death has not got much and Ghouls were first. GW are still figuring out how to handle them and make them unique to stand out the ghouls were lucky they had a kit bash box which can make interesting stuff. 

Fluff wise vampires, liche's and undead still fight the same raising the dead etc. I personally think the best idea I have seen so far is having each book based on a Mortarch and their forces. That way it brings in blood lines and possibly new interesting models and rules without just doing the easy folding factions into each other which I think GW will most likely do with 1-3 new kits to go with it. 

[ElectricPaladin]

One idea that came up in conversation at the shop today was that Soulblight could be where we see the mortals of Sysh. They could be their vampire lords' foot soldiers, vying for their approval and the gift of immortality. That's a good source for cheap infantry and ranged units.

[ElectricPaladin]

Just for fun, I threw together these two units. Thoughts?

I also imagine that I would create a MORTAL DEATH unit or two that are actually combat-capable and at least one more unit of Soulblight vampires - probably infantry on foot.

[ElectricPaladin]

I forgot to give the Guardian Thralls keywords. They would have: DEATH, SOULBLIGHT, MORTAL

[Vasshpit]

Something similar could be done with Deadwalkers. Think a whole faction like the Witch Doctor from Diablo 3 and all their little dead critters. I'd love this.

[ElectricPaladin]

Thanks!

And...

[TerrorPenguin]

Those look awesome, love the idea of having mortals seeking immortality or enthralled by vampires.

At the risk of being unpopular, I really hope they come up with something more imaginative than bringing back tomb kings, never was a big fan of the aesthetic 

[shinros]

I rather like that idea throw in the dire wolves and perhaps a infantry vampire unit. You have a very dracula like army but they do also say vampires use the undead along with having nests of vampires. 

[shinros]

14 hours ago, TerrorPenguin said:

Those look awesome, love the idea of having mortals seeking immortality or enthralled by vampires.

At the risk of being unpopular, I really hope they come up with something more imaginative than bringing back tomb kings, never was a big fan of the aesthetic 

In the new white dwarf they said Death aesthetic is going to be more based on nagash and his mortarch's hence they were designed that way. So the undead are going to be Gothic with a tinge of tomb kings in there from my understanding. 

[Vasshpit]

4 hours ago, shinros said:

In the new white dwarf they said Death aesthetic is going to be more based on nagash and his mortarch's hence they were designed that way. So the undead are going to be Gothic with a tinge of tomb kings in there from my understanding. 

i knew it, I knew it so hard! heh. Any particulars they were talking about?

[shinros]

5 minutes ago, Vasshpit said:

i knew it, I knew it so hard! heh. Any particulars they were talking about?

No they just said nagash and the mortarch's were designed in mind for the new Aesthetic for the undead. So the current kits we have in my opinion still fit that theme but newer models might have a slight tinge of tomb kings in there since you know undead is not really centered around the von carsteins anymore from my understanding. 

I mean CL did this as a slight nod to tomb kings but mannfred's skeletons in the lord of undeath book were armed with Khopesh shaped swords. 

[ElectricPaladin]

I took that to mean more of a sense of the baroque and macabre, a dark fantasia of bones and skulls, artfully ragged cloaks, and more of those awesome spirit host style bits that they are obviously fond of. Less brutal bloody body horror (though obviously there's still a place for that in Flesh Eaters and maybe Deadwalkers). I think that the current skeletons are pretty safe, given their ornate and ragged appearance. Most of the Nighthaunt line is probably good, too, and Flesh Eaters are obviously in good shape.

[ElectricPaladin]

I'd love to see more liches as well! Why should Nagash and Arkhan have all the fun?

[Daniel]

I am a big zombie fan. Id love to see ogre-sized zombies, giant zombies, pygmy-zombies... You name it! And of course, some new regular zombies.

deathwalkers, hooooo!

[ElectricPaladin]

Mechanically, what Deathrattle really needs is:

1) A little more variety.

2) Some way of dealing mortal wounds.

3) A big scary monster (almost everyone has at least one).

[Bostian]

What about more bone giants for Deathrattle?

I still remember reading the section in the Nagash End Times book about the bridge that was built by skeletons reassembling their bones, and then the Skaven gate which was the ribcage and bones of a dead dragon which was animated. So, I'm thinking something along the lines of giant bone golems might be cool--maybe something the size of Drycha could be made up of a score of skeletons all bound together? Or the screaming skull catapult which could disassemble into a unit of skeleton warriors--or is it too much like some other games to remove a model from a table to replace it with an alternate model representing a different version of the same thing?

[ElectricPaladin]

Just now, Bostian said:

What about more bone giants for Deathrattle?

I still remember reading the section in the Nagash End Times book about the bridge that was built by skeletons reassembling their bones, and then the Skaven gate which was the ribcage and bones of a dead dragon which was animated. So, I'm thinking something along the lines of giant bone golems might be cool--maybe something the size of Drycha could be made up of a score of skeletons all bound together? Or the screaming skull catapult which could disassemble into a unit of skeleton warriors--or is it too much like some other games to remove a model from a table to replace it with an alternate model representing a different version of the same thing?

Those are both totally awesome ideas! I'd totally dig a bone giant that could turn into a catapult! Now, transforming skeleton warriors might be a bit harder to balance, though.

[Bostian]

10 hours ago, ElectricPaladin said:

Those are both totally awesome ideas! I'd totally dig a bone giant that could turn into a catapult! Now, transforming skeleton warriors might be a bit harder to balance, though.

I like the idea of a warmachine/bone giant. Maybe with a ballista instead of a catapult? It could stand and shoot if if doesn't move in the movement phase, and it could also swing the ballista as a weapon in the combat phase. Now to figure out how to modify a bone giant model....