AoS Cities of Sigmar Battletome 2023 Discussion

[Doko]

thanks for the tips.

i tried the corsairs with tenebrae and fleetmaster,but was useless also. they were deleted by the new ranged shooting of brod battalion and even when they get to melle they get roared and then their damage is cut down.

also tried with the black dragon+cold one cavalry+one cold one charriot. 

they havent damage to kill one gargant(worse even when they use finest hour and all oit defense,them the damage that i do is a joke) and then the gargant just delete in one row to the dragon and then to the cavalry and charriot next turn.

i know they arent unbeatable because they arent winning many tournaments,but i cant find any weak spot in them with my citys

[Lord Krungharr]

Oh right, forgot about that terrain throwing thing!  That's a tough pickle.

[Doko]

again a defeat  against king brood batallion.

this time i got double turned and the game went into hard mode.

black dragon deleted only by the new shooting of king brood and the shooting of one gargant lol

but i could have won the game,just i had the worse luck in my life.

12 hammerers +12 fussilers with the ballistic cp(+1 hit and +1 wound) and rerolling all miss just had to kill one gargant with 5 wounds remaining........the fussilers did only 1 damage,the hammerers 0! and the gargant even healed 3 wounds after killyng my dwarfs.

12 hammerers must do around 12 wounds even with all oit defense but did 0 and fusilers also around 6 damage and did 0.

also the other gargant had 4 wounds against 10 dreadspears,5 cold one knigths and one cold one charriot......againt only 1 damage done.

glad because i could have won even with the rival getting double turn,but sad after loose a game only due to a huge bad luck streak

[Lord Krungharr]

I am wondering how did those 2 Cities players get to the top table at the Las Vegas Open if they can't beat Brodd's Stomp?  That's a popular competitive army and out their 10 collective games they must have played them once.  I'd be interested to know their battle matchups and reports.

I found this link....

LVO 2024 Age of Sigmar Results - (frontlinegaming.org)

 

looks like at least in the last 2 rounds before the Cities vs Cities final, they played Blades of Khorne, Kruleboyz, KO, and Soulblight Vyrkos Dynasty with the most zombies I've ever seen.  No gargants in those rounds but they don't have the first two games for these guys.  It's weird because I see there the Beastclaw Raiders guy lost to KO like I did at my last tournament with Beastclaw monsters, but then the KO lost to Cities.....except I tabled the Cities player with my Beastclaw monsters!  Matchups really can make a difference, assuming equivalent General-ship, which in the top 8 of LVO I would expect everyone to be very very skilled.  

Edited February 2 by Lord Krungharr
found a link

[loky100]

Seem like they didn't vs the giants. Steam tanks will delete a giant a turn though. It's a tough match up my mate plays it and can be a really 50:50 type of game especially on the turn 2 roll off.

[Doko]

9 hours ago, Lord Krungharr said:

I am wondering how did those 2 Cities players get to the top table at the Las Vegas Open if they can't beat Brodd's Stomp?  That's a popular competitive army and out their 10 collective games they must have played them once.  I'd be interested to know their battle matchups and reports.

I found this link....

LVO 2024 Age of Sigmar Results - (frontlinegaming.org)

 

looks like at least in the last 2 rounds before the Cities vs Cities final, they played Blades of Khorne, Kruleboyz, KO, and Soulblight Vyrkos Dynasty with the most zombies I've ever seen.  No gargants in those rounds but they don't have the first two games for these guys.  It's weird because I see there the Beastclaw Raiders guy lost to KO like I did at my last tournament with Beastclaw monsters, but then the KO lost to Cities.....except I tabled the Cities player with my Beastclaw monsters!  Matchups really can make a difference, assuming equivalent General-ship, which in the top 8 of LVO I would expect everyone to be very very skilled.  

if i had stean tanks with save 1 and doing way more damage than fusilers without the unreliably mortal wounds buff while i have the comand group bringing back models and shuting down cp......i think sons would be easier hahahha

but i dont like new humans,i only have fusilers because i like the miniature,my cos is entire range of dwarfs and elfs with only 10 fussilers and one starter box.

brod is beatable,even with my weird lists of dwarfs+elfs+humans i can beat them(70%) of the time if they dont get double turn at the turn2, and even with double turn i could beat them if i havent so bad luck as yesterday haha.

but of every army that i usually play they are the far the hardest army,with huge movility,huge ranged damage and with high rend,many mortals wounds spam,very high and very high rend melle damage,ignore screens,have a absurd amount of wounds,imposible to get objetives from them etc

 

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

10 hours ago, Lord Krungharr said:

I am wondering how did those 2 Cities players get to the top table at the Las Vegas Open if they can't beat Brodd's Stomp?  That's a popular competitive army and out their 10 collective games they must have played them once.  I'd be interested to know their battle matchups and reports.

I found this link....

LVO 2024 Age of Sigmar Results - (frontlinegaming.org)

 

looks like at least in the last 2 rounds before the Cities vs Cities final, they played Blades of Khorne, Kruleboyz, KO, and Soulblight Vyrkos Dynasty with the most zombies I've ever seen.  No gargants in those rounds but they don't have the first two games for these guys.  It's weird because I see there the Beastclaw Raiders guy lost to KO like I did at my last tournament with Beastclaw monsters, but then the KO lost to Cities.....except I tabled the Cities player with my Beastclaw monsters!  Matchups really can make a difference, assuming equivalent General-ship, which in the top 8 of LVO I would expect everyone to be very very skilled.  

The Steam Tank list would probably do fine against giants. It has good power projection and access to the counter-fire order, which is always super nice against shooting lists. In general, I think if you are running Freeguild you should be able to figure out a path to victory.

Dwarf and Elf lists, especially those focused on slow infantry units, will have a much harder time, however.

[JackStreicher]

On 2/1/2024 at 12:41 AM, Doko said:

i tried the corsairs with tenebrae and fleetmaster,but was useless also. they were deleted by the new ranged shooting of brod battalion and even when they get to melle they get roared and then their damage is cut down.

 

Indeed. The combo sounds good on paper but corsairs drop like flies, usually they’re killed before they get to strike.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

1 minute ago, JackStreicher said:

Indeed. The combo sounds good on paper but corsairs drop like flies, usually they’re killed before they get to strike.

That's why I didn't really like it that much from the start. The damage output is obviously insane, but for melee units you always need to have either a delivery mechanism for them (high mobility, deep strike, teleport) or be able to take a hit and counter-punch. Corsairs have neither, and as an extra mark against them, their damage output falls apart if they don't get their spell.

[Satyrical Sophist]

9 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

That's why I didn't really like it that much from the start. The damage output is obviously insane, but for melee units you always need to have either a delivery mechanism for them (high mobility, deep strike, teleport) or be able to take a hit and counter-punch. Corsairs have neither, and as an extra mark against them, their damage output falls apart if they don't get their spell.

It’s a 90 point unit though, there are limits to what you can expect. I’d run it where you are thrilled if you manage to get it off, but aren’t depending on it. I think the best way to take advantage is in a heavy aelf list, where the fleetmaster is there primarily to buff scourgerunners and it’s an opportunistic thing. 
 

As for megargants, I could see cavaliers being pretty good vs them. A charging min sized unit with engage the foe and AoA will do an expected 17 or 20+ wounds (17 if AoD). It falls off if the gargant is slamming down mystic shields and finest hours, but you are probably better off focussing on a different gargant.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

15 minutes ago, Satyrical Sophist said:

It’s a 90 point unit though, there are limits to what you can expect. I’d run it where you are thrilled if you manage to get it off, but aren’t depending on it. I think the best way to take advantage is in a heavy aelf list, where the fleetmaster is there primarily to buff scourgerunners and it’s an opportunistic thing.

They are completely fine as a 90 point screen. Good even, with their damage reflection. It's specifically using them as the recipient of Tenebrael Blades that I don't like. Here's why.

Corsair combo:

• Requires a fleetmaster and sorceress
• Requires a Darkling Covens unit to sacrifice
• 1" range
• Can't take a punch
• 20 Corsairs + Fleetmaster + Sorceress = 370 points

Black Guard combo:

• Requires only the sorceress
• Can sacrifice the Black Guards themselves
• 2" range
• Can take a punch like a champ
• 4+ wards for everyone!
• 20 Black Guard + Sorceress = 380 points

And their damage output is basically the same.

I agree, though, that if you are already running the combo and Scourgerunner shooting, you might as well bring a few Corsairs as screens just on the off chance that it's helpful.

[Lord Krungharr]

I am keen to try out 4 Gatebreakers vs Steam Tanks.  I think the Gatebreakers would still whoop the crud out of the tanks.  Either rend-3 pushing through damage in addition to MW on the charge.....or Pulverizing Strikes actually happen and 4D6 MW per gargant with those.  

[Doko]

i dont think is true because seems a lot only wishlist of some dude but this is the rumor in 4chan of changes in city for next balance:

the ignite weapons now only in melle(seems stupid)

comand corp cant target the same unit healing and only can do one time per turn the cancel cp(seems some posible but makes useless the unit for me)

zelestra +40(again seems a hater wish list with those huge numbers)

comand corps +40

metal mage(i cant remember the name,the mortal wound spell mage) +20( again a increase of 20 when they just kill the model with the nerf of the spell seems fake)

fusilers -10(of course a unit with 5damage rend1 and without the mortal wounds buffs for 160 seems balance if we compare to reavers or blisbarbs for same cost doing doible damage.......but who knows when we have irondrakes being useless with 4'4 damage and gw dont care)

steam tanks +30(i cant remember if 30 or 20) and comander too

 

i hope be fake because this would kill every competitive city list,isnt a nerf,is doing them useless.

also nerf everything but dont buff many bad units when many others armys  got several across the board reductions.

but with gw we never know

[Lord Krungharr]

Command Corps should NEVER have been able to target the same unit 3 times with healing based on the language as written.  But GW FAQd it in the Core Rules to be the opposite of how it's written.  So that change is totally warranted and appropriate.  The one time per turn CP shutdown I think is also fair though unfortunate for Cities players.  

Steam Tanks should not be touched.  The LVO winner had zero Steam Tanks didn't he?  They really don't do that much damage either, and only count for 2 models on objectives.  I think that's pretty balanced.

The Warforger igniting weapons should be just nominating a single unit, not a bubble, or at least a smaller bubble similar to Advance In Formation.  Probably same with his Save buff.

[JackStreicher]

7 hours ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

That's why I didn't really like it that much from the start. The damage output is obviously insane, but for melee units you always need to have either a delivery mechanism for them (high mobility, deep strike, teleport) or be able to take a hit and counter-punch. Corsairs have neither, and as an extra mark against them, their damage output falls apart if they don't get their spell.

Correct!

imo 20 BG, 1 Sorceress and 20 Corsairs is a good investment and whichever unit survives (the BG ofc) gets the spell

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

1 hour ago, Doko said:

i dont think is true because seems a lot only wishlist of some dude but this is the rumor in 4chan of changes in city for next balance:

the ignite weapons now only in melle(seems stupid)

comand corp cant target the same unit healing and only can do one time per turn the cancel cp(seems some posible but makes useless the unit for me)

zelestra +40(again seems a hater wish list with those huge numbers)

comand corps +40

metal mage(i cant remember the name,the mortal wound spell mage) +20( again a increase of 20 when they just kill the model with the nerf of the spell seems fake)

fusilers -10(of course a unit with 5damage rend1 and without the mortal wounds buffs for 160 seems balance if we compare to reavers or blisbarbs for same cost doing doible damage.......but who knows when we have irondrakes being useless with 4'4 damage and gw dont care)

steam tanks +30(i cant remember if 30 or 20) and comander too

 

i hope be fake because this would kill every competitive city list,isnt a nerf,is doing them useless.

also nerf everything but dont buff many bad units when many others armys  got several across the board reductions.

but with gw we never know

Does not seem believable, IMO.

Even though Cities won LVO they are not doing that well in tournaments. Still around 50% win rate I believe.

I expect some kind of rules change to the command squad and +20 points or so on both Steam Tank variants, and that's it. Definitely not both extensive rules changes and huge points increases to everything at the same time, though.

[Doko]

the worst is the change of mortals only to melle,that makes fusilers one of the worst ranged units in entire aos at irondrakes level.

also we dont have any melle infantry human to use it,and how gonna keep in range of cavaliers?

when we get new foot knigths or any elite human infantry then we could use it

[Satyrical Sophist]

1 hour ago, Doko said:

the worst is the change of mortals only to melle,that makes fusilers one of the worst ranged units in entire aos at irondrakes level.

also we dont have any melle infantry human to use it,and how gonna keep in range of cavaliers?

when we get new foot knigths or any elite human infantry then we could use it

If fusiliers lost alchemist spell then they don’t compare well to iron drakes. Unbuffed moving irondrakes outperform fortified fusiliers. Fusiliers take the lead if they have the command trait and both have AoA. Non moving irondrakes win pretty hard even vs the command trait.

 

interesting thing is that the LVO winning list would be knocked down 140 points there, but other than that pretty unaffected. Drops the underworlds band or the other witch hunters probably.  The runner up would be hit by what, close to 300? Armies have been hit by that much before (Nurgle fly spam or soulblight dead walker spam got hit like that) but it’s relatively rare. 
 

I don’t know what they do for cities, because I do feel that a big problem with some of the cities stuff is that it feels like it can be pretty rough to play against, particularly at a more casual level.
 

It doesn’t seem like fusiliers are too much of a problem on the high end, but low end I can see them being just unpleasant to play vs. The ability to counter fire is very strong. 

Steam tanks being able to pretty trivially have a 0+ save, so needing rend three to drop down to a 3+ save? That’s a bad feeling, particularly when it can be very easily healed up.

The command corps stopping command abilities and healing troops is another thing that can be unpleasant to play against, particularly the command abilities part. Separate the the feelings part it really does feel like they might just be too good. 
 

It’s hard to tell what they can do for some of these things. I particularly have no idea what to do with the fusiliers. I’d probably lean towards changing the alchemist to being a target and not an aura. Maybe even let you target in each phase (to allow a shooting unit and a combat unit). That should hopefully let you use the combo, but stop spam.

[Doko]

rigth now citys have 50% win rate and have needed months since the release to win the first tournament.

people are crazy crying for nerfs to citys only because they went both to the lvo finnals,but these persons forget how there are other 200+ tournaments where citys is missing.

its only one tournament inside of others 200+ tournaments,no more and no less.

to me city could use some targeted nerf as ignite weapons only to one unit(but then reduce in points both fusilers and the mage) or give unique to comand corps.

even steam tanks could get a +10 only to do happy to the cryers.

but also every dwarf unit need decreases,the dwarf orders,enhacements etc need huge buffs etc.

also i really like and preffer use the dark ryders to shut down cp before comand corps,its for every cp and not only one.(in case they do unique to comand corps)

[Satyrical Sophist]

55 minutes ago, Doko said:

rigth now citys have 50% win rate and have needed months since the release to win the first tournament.

people are crazy crying for nerfs to citys only because they went both to the lvo finnals,but these persons forget how there are other 200+ tournaments where citys is missing.

its only one tournament inside of others 200+ tournaments,no more and no less.

to me city could use some targeted nerf as ignite weapons only to one unit(but then reduce in points both fusilers and the mage) or give unique to comand corps.

even steam tanks could get a +10 only to do happy to the cryers.

but also every dwarf unit need decreases,the dwarf orders,enhacements etc need huge buffs etc.

also i really like and preffer use the dark ryders to shut down cp before comand corps,its for every cp and not only one.(in case they do unique to comand corps)

Cities really haven’t been out very long. The main release was only beginning of November, they also aren’t the easiest to paint, that time included Christmas and it’s a book with a lot of different units . I’m not surprised it’s taking awhile for results to come through.

 

Do they need a nerf? I don’t think so, but a I said, some stuff is concerning. I can definitely see them errata’ing the command corps heal given the lists that did well at LVO were already using that nerf. 

I’d like some dwarf buffs, but I don’t think they need to be as big as I think you do.

[Doko]

25 minutes ago, Satyrical Sophist said:

Cities really haven’t been out very long. The main release was only beginning of November, they also aren’t the easiest to paint, that time included Christmas and it’s a book with a lot of different units . I’m not surprised it’s taking awhile for results to come through.

 

Do they need a nerf? I don’t think so, but a I said, some stuff is concerning. I can definitely see them errata’ing the command corps heal given the lists that did well at LVO were already using that nerf. 

I’d like some dwarf buffs, but I don’t think they need to be as big as I think you do.

yes  im sure 100% that the comand corps gonna get that change for sure because the guy doing the changes was there.

as dwarfs buffs.....yes i would like many:

warden king: now dont need be the general to give his 6 to hit auto wound,and is choose one unit each turn.

runelord: rollback to old scroll,with +2 to cancell spells,the prayer affect to irondrakes and 2+(same old scroll)

enginer: some usefull as +1 rend to copters or +1 wound to shooting dwarfs or somethimg usefull

longbeards: up to 150 but give +1 wound to dwarfs units within 9"

ironbreakers: down to 110

hammerers: they are fine

irondrakes: down to 130

gyrocopters: reverted to old scroll of flamer or down to 60

gyrobomber: down to 90

 

shieldwall order: changed to  be used in hero phase and give ward 5 to a unit dwarfs within 3" for entire game and only loose it if you do a charge

order of 3" move changed to add irondrakes to count as not moved.

deleted the order of mortals at 5+ when one dwarf die.

new order: one unit of dwarfs within 3" gain +1 atk used in charge phase,or in place of this could be mortals with 6 to hit to do usefull to ironbreakers.

also would be cool for lore give to every dwarf unit a ignore spells with 5+

 

Edited February 3 by Doko

[Satyrical Sophist]

5 minutes ago, Doko said:

yes  im sure 100% that the comand corps gonna get that change for sure because the guy doing the changes was there.

as dwarfs buffs.....yes i would like many:

warden king: now dont need be the general to give his 6 to hit auto wound,and is choose one unit each turn.

runelord: rollback to old scroll,with +2 to cancell spells,the prayer affect to irondrakes and 2+(same old scroll)

enginer: some usefull as +1 rend to copters or +1 wound to shooting dwarfs or somethimg usefull

longbeards: up to 150 but give +1 wound to dwarfs units within 9"

ironbreakers: down to 110

hammerers: they are fine

irondrakes: down to 130

gyrocopters: reverted to old scroll of flamer or down to 60

gyrobomber: down to 90

 

shieldwall order: changed to  be used in hero phase and give ward 5 to a unit dwarfs within 3" for entire game and only loose it if you do a charge

order of 3" move changed to add irondrakes to count as not moved.

deleted the order of mortals at 5+ when one dwarf die.

new order: one unit of dwarfs within 3" gain +1 atk used in charge phase,or in place of this could be mortals with 6 to hit to do usefull to ironbreakers.

also would be cool for lore give to every dwarf unit a ignore spells with 5+

 

Doing all of those changes would be insane. A fair few of them would probably be too powerful just on their own. You could probably do the warden king one and the magic ignore. I think all the others would be problematic? 
 

 

[Doko]

oh i said many changes that i would like,i guess all would be too much? but if it is too much can be fixed with increased  in points.

but rigth now even when i do lists heavy on dwarfs i find hard select one dwarf hero because they are useless,the king dont bring any usefull,runelord have same cancel spell than other mages but the prayer is ****** if we compare to others buffs of mages and the enginer........can be the worst single hero in entire aos.

and dont help that dwarfs orders are also useless and i dont need bring dwarfs heros because i allways gonna use the extra move or counter charge.

so i would like that we would get reworked dwarfs orders and buffed heroes before buffs to units if we must choose

[Fastner]

Does anyone know the base sizes for Freeguild Command Corps? The app gives me a completely different reference from what I got in the box which is completely different from what is referenced in the instructions from the box.

Very confused here.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

4 hours ago, Fastner said:

Does anyone know the base sizes for Freeguild Command Corps? The app gives me a completely different reference from what I got in the box which is completely different from what is referenced in the instructions from the box.

Very confused here.

40mm for the Soul Shepard, 32mm for the Gargoylian, 28.5mm everyone else.