AoS Cities of Sigmar Battletome 2023 Discussion

[The Lost Sigmarite]

Quite interesting article. Turns out there's even more unexplored potential in the BT that we haven't talked about.
https://plasticcraic.blog/2023/09/18/cities-of-sigmar-crunching-the-rules/

Too bad the article doesn't go into some of our things (Vindicarum/Cavaliers/Corsairs) but there's some real original stuff in here. My favourite is Steelhelm blocks in Hammerhal Ghyra with the brazier of holy flame + deliver rousing speech, it sounds really viable now ! Would you paint 60+ Steelhelms for it though...

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

40 minutes ago, The Lost Sigmarite said:

Quite interesting article. Turns out there's even more unexplored potential in the BT that we haven't talked about.
https://plasticcraic.blog/2023/09/18/cities-of-sigmar-crunching-the-rules/

Too bad the article doesn't go into some of our things (Vindicarum/Cavaliers/Corsairs) but there's some real original stuff in here. My favourite is Steelhelm blocks in Hammerhal Ghyra with the brazier of holy flame + deliver rousing speech, it sounds really viable now ! Would you paint 60+ Steelhelms for it though...

There are few interesting points in that article, thank you for sharing.

Most intersting from my perspective are the ambiguity on Tahlia Vedra's rally ability (I had read it as "4+ rally, for humans also into combat" but it is not clear from the wording) and the fact that the Command Crops medic can heal the same unit three times. The latter is actually super welcome, because I was looking for a good way to heal Steam Tanks (even considering the Flask of Lethisian Gamer-Girl Bathwater, even though it's a dumb once-per-battle d6 heal) and will be taking the Command Corps anyway.

Also, lol:

Quote

As a model is within 3” of itself, the Sorceress can still slay herself to make an Incarnate go wild without the risks of casting Rupture.

 

[The Lost Sigmarite]

1 hour ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

Most intersting from my perspective are the ambiguity on Tahlia Vedra's rally ability (I had read it as "4+ rally, for humans also into combat" but it is not clear from the wording) and the fact that the Command Crops medic can heal the same unit three times. The latter is actually super welcome, because I was looking for a good way to heal Steam Tanks (even considering the Flask of Lethisian Gamer-Girl Bathwater, even though it's a dumb once-per-battle d6 heal) and will be taking the Command Corps anyway.

That also means you can keep getting Cavaliers back on their feet again and again and again, really fun with Vindicarum when they can also rally in combat. Your enemy will need to wipe out the squad in one go to prevent this. Might make 10 Cavaliers squads maybe worth it ?

Command Corps is really growing on my mind. You can score a battle tactic and grand strat with it, heal 3 times the same unit, and preventing an AoD with Dispatch Spies never really crossed my mind but it's true that it'll be foul with our shooting. Or prevent an AoA with a big scary melee threat. They're just so useful.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

1 minute ago, The Lost Sigmarite said:

Command Corps is really growing on my mind. You can score a battle tactic and grand strat with it, heal 3 times the same unit, and preventing an AoD with Dispatch Spies never really crossed my mind but it's true that it'll be foul with our shooting. Or prevent an AoA with a big scary melee threat. They're just so useful

I was initially not sure about it, because in my opinion having a unit that comes with a collection of a bunch of odd rules is not usually super good because it tends to not advance any particular game plan. But the Command Corps just does so much stuff that is good in basically every list.

• 3d3 healing at a good distance
• +1 to run and charge and the chance to score a battle tactic and d3" move buff
• board-wide command denial
• can score a battle tactic

Plus a few other things that are situationally useful. It really is a steal at 170 points. Just compare all that to what a cannon or Fusil-Major can do at 150.

 

[Myrdin]

2 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

I was initially not sure about it, because in my opinion having a unit that comes with a collection of a bunch of odd rules is not usually super good because it tends to not advance any particular game plan. But the Command Corps just does so much stuff that is good in basically every list.

• 3d3 healing at a good distance
• +1 to run and charge and the chance to score a battle tactic and d3" move buff
• board-wide command denial
• can score a battle tactic

Plus a few other things that are situationally useful. It really is a steal at 170 points. Just compare all that to what a cannon or Fusil-Major can do at 150.

 

Yep yep!

Only downside I see is you cant attach them to units so that they become a bit more survivable, since they are single entities with 3W only. Agent and Arch Knight both could make use of that to contribute some damage without getting insta killed right back. The rest is fine just shuffling around as needed.

Also... lets not talk about the Fusil Major

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

3 minutes ago, Myrdin said:

Yep yep!

Only downside I see is you cant attach them to units so that they become a bit more survivable, since they are single entities with 3W only. Agent and Arch Knight both could make use of that to contribute some damage without getting insta killed right back. The rest is fine just shuffling around as needed.

Also... lets not talk about the Fusil Major

Still pretty OK as far as survivablilty is concerned, though. 18 wounds at 4+ is not nothing. You can lose the Arch Knight, Gargoylian realistically the priest dude as well before the unit really loses any of the rules you care about. And it can self-heal with the medic, too. Seems fine in my book, especially if you get the Zenestra 5+ ward on them, as well.

For the Fusil-Major and Cannon, I think they will slowly start dropping in points. I can see them making the cut at ~120. Currently, the fact that the Fusil-Major is more expensive than the Alchemite is absurd, though.

[Myrdin]

2 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

Still pretty OK as far as survivablilty is concerned, though. 18 wounds at 4+ is not nothing. You can lose the Arch Knight, Gargoylian realistically the priest dude as well before the unit really loses any of the rules you care about. And it can self-heal with the medic, too. Seems fine in my book, especially if you get the Zenestra 5+ ward on them, as well.

For the Fusil-Major and Cannon, I think they will slowly start dropping in points. I can see them making the cut at ~120. Currently, the fact that the Fusil-Major is more expensive than the Alchemite is absurd, though.

Wait, but they are single entities. That means for wound distribution each of them has their own 3W pool no ?

Because if thats the case then its not correct to look at them as a 18W unit, since you cant just remove which ever one of them once wounds start comming in to preserve the more important members. Or am I getting it confused here ?

Edited September 19, 2023 by Myrdin

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

Just now, Myrdin said:

Wait, but they are single entities. That means for wound distribution each of them has their own 3W pool no ?

Because if thats the case then its not correct to look at them as a 18W unit, since you cant just remove which ever one of them once wounds start comming in to preserve the more important members.

They are "single", meaning non-reinforceable. But they are a regular unit, otherwise.

[Myrdin]

Just now, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

They are "single", meaning non-reinforceable. But they are a regular unit, otherwise.

That makes the unit that much better in my eyes. I was worried about this aspect and planned to ask once the book is out, but I guess I got my answer before that

The negative of this though is they will have to keep coherency, so no putting individual members where they are needed the most. Bummer. But it was clear they were going for that 40K IG Commander with retinue thing here so I should have expected that.

[Satyrical Sophist]

3 hours ago, The Lost Sigmarite said:

Quite interesting article. Turns out there's even more unexplored potential in the BT that we haven't talked about.
https://plasticcraic.blog/2023/09/18/cities-of-sigmar-crunching-the-rules/

Too bad the article doesn't go into some of our things (Vindicarum/Cavaliers/Corsairs) but there's some real original stuff in here. My favourite is Steelhelm blocks in Hammerhal Ghyra with the brazier of holy flame + deliver rousing speech, it sounds really viable now ! Would you paint 60+ Steelhelms for it though...

Interesting article. I think he might unfortunately be wrong with the interaction between the aelf command trait and the fleet master one. When you are triggering an effect on a role I think the player rolling the dice picks which effect, so the enemy chooses between 1 MW (command trait) or 2 MW (fleet masters 1 to hit), and can pick the single mortal wound rather than the 2.

[Doko]

11 hours ago, The Lost Sigmarite said:

Quite interesting article. Turns out there's even more unexplored potential in the BT that we haven't talked about.
https://plasticcraic.blog/2023/09/18/cities-of-sigmar-crunching-the-rules/

Too bad the article doesn't go into some of our things (Vindicarum/Cavaliers/Corsairs) but there's some real original stuff in here. My favourite is Steelhelm blocks in Hammerhal Ghyra with the brazier of holy flame + deliver rousing speech, it sounds really viable now ! Would you paint 60+ Steelhelms for it though...

their old articles about cities were so bad lol,got many rules wrong as the triple on greywater +1 hit and +1 wounds that isnt posible and a big etc.

but this article is written by a diferent guy that seems know read better and know very well the rules.

in general i knew everythimg of this,but one rule was new for me,i didnt remember that a save - is a save of 7+.

i tougth as mortal wounds the vitriolic spray,when enemy can use many options to get +1 save and save at 6, doing the spell many worse than i tougth

Edited September 19, 2023 by Doko

[Lord Krungharr]

If using a more combined arms force, what would the best chunk of Dark Aelves be to include with a Steam Tank Company (Comm. w 3 tanks, Warforger) and Cavalier entourage (Marshal/5 horsies)?  At first I'm thinking 20 Black Guard and a Sorceress, but now I'm wondering about a bunch of skirmishing Corsairs and a Dreadlord and Fleetmaster?   

Trying to get my first real Cities game in next week.

[Satyrical Sophist]

1 hour ago, Lord Krungharr said:

If using a more combined arms force, what would the best chunk of Dark Aelves be to include with a Steam Tank Company (Comm. w 3 tanks, Warforger) and Cavalier entourage (Marshal/5 horsies)?  At first I'm thinking 20 Black Guard and a Sorceress, but now I'm wondering about a bunch of skirmishing Corsairs and a Dreadlord and Fleetmaster?   

Trying to get my first real Cities game in next week.

How many points we we looking at? 

[Doko]

1 hour ago, Lord Krungharr said:

If using a more combined arms force, what would the best chunk of Dark Aelves be to include with a Steam Tank Company (Comm. w 3 tanks, Warforger) and Cavalier entourage (Marshal/5 horsies)?  At first I'm thinking 20 Black Guard and a Sorceress, but now I'm wondering about a bunch of skirmishing Corsairs and a Dreadlord and Fleetmaster?   

Trying to get my first real Cities game in next week.

seeing that you gonna bring tanks and cavalry,i would bring corsairs for screens and keep in your objetives also because you gonna need corpses

[JackStreicher]

11 hours ago, Doko said:

corsairs for screen

Corsairs are a port and  starboard of this army

 

Yyiiiarhhh!

[The Lost Sigmarite]

Just found out Steam Tanks are even better than I previously thought.

Not only they're a really solid unit (really great consistency, 2+ save, mortal wounds on charge, more pressure! being great) with cool comboes now with the commander, you can give them wards with Zenestra, heal them with the Command Corps... But they're 55€ (70$ if you live in the land of the free), which means they have a 4.2 point/money ratio in € (3.2 in USD) which goes to 4.9 points/€ for the commander variant (3.85 in $) ! That's crazy good value right here and a great way to expand your collection with great warscrolls that aren't huge money sinks.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

20 minutes ago, The Lost Sigmarite said:

Just found out Steam Tanks are even better than I previously thought.

Not only they're a really solid unit (really great consistency, 2+ save, mortal wounds on charge, more pressure! being great) with cool comboes now with the commander, you can give them wards with Zenestra, heal them with the Command Corps... But they're 55€ (70$ if you live in the land of the free), which means they have a 4.2 point/money ratio in € (3.2 in USD) which goes to 4.9 points/€ for the commander variant (3.85 in $) ! That's crazy good value right here and a great way to expand your collection with great warscrolls that aren't huge money sinks.

They are cool models and I would not hesitate to recommend getting at least a Tank Commander. That guy can play a role in a lot of lists.

I hope the kit stays popular enough for GW to consider expanding the steam technology theme in the future. I was actually kind of surprised to see a Steam Tank make an appearance in the recent Dawnbringers story with King Brodd, considering that it is a legacy Warhammer Fantasy model.

[The Lost Sigmarite]

I secretly hope GW does not upgrade the Steam Tank. I'd rather have a fine looking WFB model at 55€ than a brand new ultra detailed AoS model at 70€+. 

And with all the bits left from the army box, you should have no problems kitbashing a tank commander that looks like the new CoS models. 

Edited September 20, 2023 by The Lost Sigmarite

[Myrdin]

38 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

They are cool models and I would not hesitate to recommend getting at least a Tank Commander. That guy can play a role in a lot of lists.

I hope the kit stays popular enough for GW to consider expanding the steam technology theme in the future. I was actually kind of surprised to see a Steam Tank make an appearance in the recent Dawnbringers story with King Brodd, considering that it is a legacy Warhammer Fantasy model.

Would be interesting. Reminds me of "Rise of Nations: Rise of Legends" PC game, where the human faction had arcano-steam tech.

Clockwork soldiers, Steam golems, etc.

But seeing how with the Dawnbringers CoS got a technological downgrade I wouldnt bet much on it tbh. But how cool would it be to have a steam golem carry the Fussil Major instead of an Ogor!

[Lord Krungharr]

16 hours ago, Satyrical Sophist said:

How many points we we looking at? 

2000

[Lord Krungharr]

46 minutes ago, Myrdin said:

Would be interesting. Reminds me of "Rise of Nations: Rise of Legends" PC game, where the human faction had arcano-steam tech.

Clockwork soldiers, Steam golems, etc.

But seeing how with the Dawnbringers CoS got a technological downgrade I wouldnt bet much on it tbh. But how cool would it be to have a steam golem carry the Fussil Major instead of an Ogor!

With them shoving the Duardin to the outskirts they'll be hurting for engineers who can make steam-tech.  

There used to be a Freeguild/Empire Engineer on mechanical steed, and he had a little crank on his rear to wind him up.  He's my Cavalier-Marshal now.  SOON I'll have horse-cycles too to counter-charge at his command!  Tempted to get Gyrocopters or Bombers to kinda go with that theme but....Gyros 🙄

I'll try out the Corsairs and Fleetmaster, and see what else I can fit in there at 2000.  Tis true, I will lack many bodies for objective contesting.

[Myrdin]

1 hour ago, Lord Krungharr said:

With them shoving the Duardin to the outskirts they'll be hurting for engineers who can make steam-tech.  

There used to be a Freeguild/Empire Engineer on mechanical steed, and he had a little crank on his rear to wind him up.  He's my Cavalier-Marshal now.  SOON I'll have horse-cycles too to counter-charge at his command!  Tempted to get Gyrocopters or Bombers to kinda go with that theme but....Gyros 🙄

I'll try out the Corsairs and Fleetmaster, and see what else I can fit in there at 2000.  Tis true, I will lack many bodies for objective contesting.

Yeah I remember that one. I believe in the old Warhammer Fantasy The Empire battletome they even had a mechanical pidgeon bomb as a hero artifact. "Hrrrkuuu Hrrrkuuu Hrrrkuuu BOOOM!"  

I dont know what they were thinking with the Gyro nerf. Taking away 1 weapon profile so its one or the other, and then also nerfing their speed so they no longer even work as objective grabbers, very uncalled for. No idea who made these decisions and why.

As they are now they should be 50pts a piece honeslty. Gyrobombers should be 80pts to be viable (and maybe somewhat fun).

Edited September 20, 2023 by Myrdin

[JackStreicher]

4 hours ago, Myrdin said:

As they are now they should be 50pts a piece honeslty. Gyrobombers should be 80pts to be viable (and maybe somewhat fun).

Agreed. I‘d also not expect anyone to spam them at their price point x_X

[The Lost Sigmarite]

41 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

Agreed. I‘d also not expect anyone to spam them at their price point x_X

Yeah, a 120 pts unit that's both bad and expensive (42,5 bucks where I live) sounds like a completely useless money sink. If there's a beginner player reading the thread : don't by any gyro variants.

[Myrdin]

12 hours ago, The Lost Sigmarite said:

Yeah, a 120 pts unit that's both bad and expensive (42,5 bucks where I live) sounds like a completely useless money sink. If there's a beginner player reading the thread : don't by any gyro variants.

Unless you are playing at official GW store, or plan to go to official GW tournaments, then I would suggest looking into 3D printing. Just the price itself makes it worth, plus you`ll often times than not find amazing looking minis, that are great supplement to your existing army to add more spark of flavor.

I saw some pretty sick looking steam tank variants. One of which was the old style Estalia...or Tilea ? No idea but it was basically a ship hull with giant wheels. Lot of details on it as well.

3D printing has come such a long way in those last few years you can hardly believe the quality some 3D artists are able to produce.

 

Edit: Just to show few examples of the best looking ones (including a Ctulhu themed one)

Spoiler

 

Edited September 21, 2023 by Myrdin