AoS Cities of Sigmar Battletome 2023 Discussion

[The Lost Sigmarite]

If you were to play Settler's Gain, what Lumineth hero would you ally with for the bonus CP ? Do you go cheap with a Bannerblade or do you bring a wizard along ?

[JackStreicher]

29 minutes ago, The Lost Sigmarite said:

If you were to play Settler's Gain, what Lumineth hero would you ally with for the bonus CP ? Do you go cheap with a Bannerblade or do you bring a wizard along ?

The twins maybe.

[Myrdin]

So one thing that has been bothering me for a while is the Endless Spells and Factions terrain for new Cities.

In the previous book we had no Faction terrain with some niche but usefull ability so we got that neat little gimmick with endless spells instead.

Now we no longer have that, nor did we gain the terrain and also can no longer take any SCE units as part of our army instead of Allies... Thats a pretty substantial nerf as a whole. Now ofc its not impossible we will get a nice terrain piece, but that would have been probably included in the book already. Unless they gonna pull that Lumineth nonsense with us, and re-release this book once per year just adding few more unit profiles each time... ugh, talk about stupid AND predatory way to monetize.

Any thoughts on this matter ?

Edited September 3, 2023 by Myrdin

[Satyrical Sophist]

3 hours ago, Myrdin said:

So one thing that has been bothering me for a while is the Endless Spells and Factions terrain for new Cities.

In the previous book we had no Faction terrain with some niche but usefull ability so we got that neat little gimmick with endless spells instead.

Now we no longer have that, nor did we gain the terrain and also can no longer take any SCE units as part of our army instead of Allies... Thats a pretty substantial nerf as a whole. Now ofc its not impossible we will get a nice terrain piece, but that would have been probably included in the book already. Unless they gonna pull that Lumineth nonsense with us, and re-release this book once per year just adding few more unit profiles each time... ugh, talk about stupid AND predatory way to monetize.

Any thoughts on this matter ?

I really don't think its a nerf. The original gimmick with endless spells stopped being relevant (The spells being more powerful in their home realm one) and the thing about the plus 1 to cast on endless spells? They kind of moved it. Battlemages and Warforgers both have easy access to an inbuilt +1 to cast, and Sorceresses have access to +2 to cast. Battlemages can get +6 to the range of spells if you wanted instead and sorceresses can get a relic that also boosts their spell range.

If you go settler's gain then everyone has plus 1 to cast and Hallowheart gets you an expected +3.5 to cast with some minor 'splodies. (Side note, I'm pretty sure non human based wants to go Settler's and Human based has a push to Hallowheart if you have a command corps.)

My point is that you can do some pretty dang good endless spells stuff, and they are actively adjusting the "generic" endless spells. I'm really fine with this, and its honestly been pretty dang cool seeing people using a much wider variety of endless spells.

I remember when they were rolling out the terrain, and I've gotta say there were as many misses as there were hits. A number of them are just "There".  I can definitely see some cool concepts they could bring in for cities, honestly having cogforts show up would be amazing, but I'd rather they did nothing than do a poorly executed one that just hangs around forever. 

5/7 Chaos. 2/4 Death, 2/4 Destro, 5/9 Order have terrain (might be wrong numbers, I had to look up what some of the faction terrain even did) . Some of those are built in to do cool stuff!  Some are just there. Some used to do cool stuff and now would be better off just being a rule. Beasts of Chaos used to have stuff with summoning at the herdstone, but now you are incentivised to hide it in a corner to make it harder to destroy, since it's only function is to remove a buff if the enemy destroys it. 

As for the Coalition rules? Part of me is sad to see them go. Another part is me is kind of glad that you don't have "Oh a cities list did well, awesome...and that's just 1500 of dragons/fulminators/whatever else and 30 crossbows, 2 small heroes because the cities allegiance abilities worked better than the SCE ones. I suspect there is probably some middle ground that would work, but I'm fine for cities lists to be majority cities. 

I wouldn't be too surprised if they ended up releasing a second wave sooner than you would expect. I'm hopeful that if they did it might be a free PDF like the Ironjaws one is supposed to be, but I didn't mind too much the way they did the second 2nd Ed book, If I remember correctly if you had the first book and broken realms Teclis you didn't need to get the second book. The Third Ed book following quickly is a bit nutty I do agree, but it seems like that is going to happen if you want each army to get a book every edition. 

I think Orders has the potential to be such a powerful mechanic.  I've mentioned before that I think Counter-Charge is a kind of insane ability. Soulblight has a much more limited version of it, where it is A) once per turn rather than up to 3 times. B) can only be done if an enemy unit nearby the unit charges. Its immediately after that charge rather than the end of the charging phase, which has positives and negatives (It's a positive if they were going to charge the unit you Soulblight Countercharged with, its a negative since the opponent can then do the rest of their charges knowing where you charged. All this is before you factor in that it improves the units rend. 

 

Playing around orders feels like its going to be really difficult your opponent needs to be very wary about where they move their units, what units they shoot (Incidental shooting is really risky near a CoS unit, you might just be about to take a full volley of fusiliers). A lot of the non human units have built in bonuses to charge, and there is nothing stopping you command point rerolling a counter charge (Rules as written this works just fine, I can't see any problems with it). You can order an aelf unit to strike first (activate at the start of the charge phase). It only works if they complete a charge, but counter charge works. One think you can do is use it on a dragon behind a screen, then order the dragon with a different hero and slam into the enemy unit with an always strikes first dreadlord on black dragon that you have protected with screens. This may well be too many individual steps and run the risk of just falling apart, but its definitely an interesting one to try. I'm going to be looking at little mini combos to see how they interact. It feels like at minimum I want to try to have potential counter charges set up.

 

One thing I'm really interested in trying is doing this with Drakespawn knights and Drakespawn chariots. It might end up being too unwieldly, but the boosted chariot damage actually triggers on the ENEMY unit being near the knights. Nothing is stopping you charging the knights and looping them round BEHIND the target, and then charging the front with the chariots, leaving a hero within 3 of a chariot. Only one chariot needs to be within half an inch, the other 2 just need to be within 3 for their ability to trigger, the base of a chariot is 4.7 inches long, so that hero can be almost 11 inches away from the charged unit. If you wipe out the unit with the chariots charge (its an expected 14 mortal wounds) then you can use the drakespawn knights pile in to position themselves to screen the chariots. if you don't you might be limited by where the enemy unit is, but the knights can be expected to do fairly reasonable damage (9.44 to a 4+ unbuffed, with 11.8 with AoA). If the knights are free in the enemy movement phase you can use a redeploy to screen as well. 

 

This went past rambling some time ago, and I'm sorry for that, but the abilities just seem...neat. 

[JackStreicher]

Still waiting for my Box to arrive

Edited September 4, 2023 by JackStreicher

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

1 minute ago, JackStreicher said:

Still waiting for my Box to arrive

Same. I am not even sure if GW sent out my order yet, lol.

Passing the time by painting Dawnbriger terrain:

14 hours ago, Myrdin said:

So one thing that has been bothering me for a while is the Endless Spells and Factions terrain for new Cities.

Speaking of terrain... Personally, I am kinda glad that our faction doesn't use faction terrain. I always just view that as an allegiance ability that you have to pay money for and that can get disabled by enemy monsters. It's not like there is a shortage of themed terrain for Dawnbringers (Aqualith, Nexus Siphon, Guardian Idols...), so that's just the best case in my opinion: You get cool, thematic terrain without having your allegiance abilites tied to it.

As for endless spells, I never really warmed up to them. They seem nice for competitive play, but which ones of them are usable/broken seems to change with every GHB, FAQ and even battletomes sometimes. Plus, I always find them hard to justify bringing. Spellcasting is always a gamble (even easy to cast spells are coin flips if the opponent decides to unbind), and I rarely find that the extra point cost for an endless spell (even just 50 points) can be justified as just a "nice to have" thing. You kind of need to build around them to make them worth it, otherwise I find going for a triumph or a cheap unit more attractive.

9 hours ago, Satyrical Sophist said:

You can order an aelf unit to strike first (activate at the start of the charge phase). It only works if they complete a charge, but counter charge works.

That's a fun bit of tech, even though you som,ewhat have to give the game away by revealing the strike first order at the start of the enemy charge phase. That's not all bad, though: People often get caught up with catching opponents by surpries when using hidden information mechanics, but broadcasting to the opponent that "if you charge me, you eat a strikes-first Black Dragon attack" is valuable on its own. It might dissuade the opponent from charging at all.

Also, since counter-charge is end of charge phase, I think you still get to Monstrous Rampage after. Or can the opponent sequence things in such a way that you are locked out from doing it? Like, make it so that all rampages are resolved first, then the counter-charge order after?

Looking at the core rules, I think the Cities player gets to order the counter-charge before their rampages:

Spoiler

1.6.2 Simultaneous Effects

If the effects of two or more abilities would be applied at the same time in a turn, the player whose turn is taking place applies the effects of their abilities first, one at a time, in the order they desire. Their opponent then does the same.

Not 100% on that, though.

[The Lost Sigmarite]

57 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

Still waiting for my Box to arrive

I've asked my retailer why it was taking so long, according to him apparently GW took a little more time than usual to ship the boxes. They said it'll be coming mid-week. Pretty sure it'll be the same for you  

Edited September 4, 2023 by The Lost Sigmarite

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

3 minutes ago, The Lost Sigmarite said:

I've asked my retailer why it was taking so long, according to him apparently GW took a little more time than usual to ship the boxes. They said it'll be coming mid-week. Pretty sure it'll be the same for you  

Also, if you are in mainland europe, their shipping times were kinda sketchy before and Brexit has not helped things.

[The Lost Sigmarite]

Been experimenting that first hand since I do live in mainland Europe... So far, all the people who got their boxes were Brits and some Americans.

[Myrdin]

1 hour ago, JackStreicher said:

Nice looking army!

Seeing your Marshall on Griffon I dug out my own big gribblies and was not so pleasantly reminded I still havent finished their new bases (they are still on squares haha~) so thats something I will have to get done before the new book launches so I can get back into the game with what remaining fun stuff is still there.

[JackStreicher]

1 hour ago, Myrdin said:

Nice looking army!

Seeing your Marshall on Griffon I dug out my own big gribblies and was not so pleasantly reminded I still havent finished their new bases (they are still on squares haha~) so thats something I will have to get done before the new book launches so I can get back into the game with what remaining fun stuff is still there.

Huehue this is but a fraction of my (power) army.

 

I feel you. I usually bring my models up the the standard of: Base Design, Base Coating, maybe airbrushed a main color and then I stop

My standard procedure could be called: Ready to start the real work.

 

@Neil Arthur Hotep I should paint mine as well 🤔 especially since one can use the Guardian Statues and the Syphon as actual Faction Terrain in PtG battles!

Edited September 4, 2023 by JackStreicher

[Myrdin]

One thing I do love about Age of Sigmar is the fact your models facing doesnt matter. I really dont miss the Old World movement trays and facing shenanigans haha.

 

Looking for advice: Trying to position this chunky boy on a 120mm oval is pretty rough if I wanted to do it on the length of the base rather than on the wider side. Especially since I need somethin under his belly or the upmost back leg to prop up all that weight (solid resin) so the tail doesnt break off.

Plus I really think having him set on the wider side makes him more menacing since it gives off a feel of size, whereas if he were positioned on the lenghty side it would look like he`s trying to "squeeze in". What do you think ?

*I suck at taking pictures. but the first two are with the wide base placement, the 2 below are on the base length placement*

Spoiler

 

*Also my Battlemage on Griffon/Sorc on BDragon pic included since she`ll need a base overhaul as well. Though in her case I might just get oneof those conversion bases for square to oval and just slot her in, instead of reoding the entire base from scratch*

Spoiler

Edited September 4, 2023 by Myrdin

[Morathi is my Goddess]

3 hours ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

Looking at the core rules, I think the Cities player gets to order the counter-charge before their rampages:

  Reveal hidden contents

1.6.2 Simultaneous Effects

If the effects of two or more abilities would be applied at the same time in a turn, the player whose turn is taking place applies the effects of their abilities first, one at a time, in the order they desire. Their opponent then does the same.

Not 100% on that, though.

Order of activations would be as follows.

1. Opponents normal charges

2. Opponents monstrous rampages

3. Cities counter charges and monstrous rampages, in your preferred order.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

19 minutes ago, Myrdin said:

One thing I do love about Age of Sigmar is the fact your models facing doesnt matter. I really dont miss the Old World movement trays and facing shenanigans haha.

 

Looking for advice: Trying to position this chunky boy on a 120mm oval is pretty rough if I wanted to do it on the length of the base rather than on the wider side. Especially since I need somethin under his belly or the upmost back leg to prop up all that weight (solid resin) so the tail doesnt break off.

Plus I really think having him set on the wider side makes him more menacing since it gives off a feel of size, whereas if he were positioned on the lenghty side it would look like he`s trying to "squeeze in". What do you think ?

  Hide contents

 

*Also my Battlemage on Griffon/Sorc on BDragon pic included since she`ll need a base overhaul as well. Though in her case I might just get oneof those conversion bases for square to oval and just slot her in, instead of reoding the entire base from scratch*

For the big dragon, I would wait until the base size for Tahlia Vedra is known and maybe use it as a proxy for her. It looks pretty good on that 120mm(?) round base, but seriously tight on the 120mm oval.

For the smaller fox-dragon, I would rebase it by rounding off the corners of the rectangular MDF base in order to better blend the shape with the oval. And then just glue it on top. I think you can probably hide the transition with modeling paste/miliput/texture paste.

[Myrdin]

13 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

For the big dragon, I would wait until the base size for Tahlia Vedra is known and maybe use it as a proxy for her. It looks pretty good on that 120mm(?) round base, but seriously tight on the 120mm oval.

For the smaller fox-dragon, I would rebase it by rounding off the corners of the rectangular MDF base in order to better blend the shape with the oval. And then just glue it on top. I think you can probably hide the transition with modeling paste/miliput/texture paste.

Both of those are oval 120mm, its just my crappy angle shots that make it look round 😅.

But thats what I meant, going wide makes the model feel big and have presence as if the base was round not oval, whereas going narrow, while maybe practical makes him looks more squeezed in.

As for Tahlia: I got two other dragons one like this and one other so in case her base size is bigger than the Gryffon one I can still keep this one as a Freeguild Marshal on Gryffon and have a solid proxi that fits a different base.

About the fox dragon, thats what I was thinking about, but the problem is Battlemage on Gryffon has 120mm oval and Sorc has I believe 105 x 70mm, which is trickier. And while both are meh due to being way to overpriced, BMage seems better since he could work as a Monster hunter with his special rules and spells. But then again the Sorc can always make up for what she lacks with one of the 3 spells she can choose from, unlke the BMage who has to take Wildform.

Appreciate the feedback!

[Satyrical Sophist]

1 hour ago, Morathi is my Goddess said:

Order of activations would be as follows.

1. Opponents normal charges

2. Opponents monstrous rampages

3. Cities counter charges and monstrous rampages, in your preferred order.

That's what I've assumed it was, which lets you escape your opponents monstrous rampages with counter charge. What confused me was a lot of people seem to pay monstrous rampages like heroic actions, which DO both happen when the player whose turn it is chooses. 

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

2 hours ago, JackStreicher said:

I should paint mine as well 🤔 especially since one can use the Guardian Statues and the Syphon as actual Faction Terrain in PtG battles!

You can? I'll have to take a look at that part of the battletome some time. I have been sticking to the rule of "Path to Glory? More like Path to Ignorey!" up to now.

They are cool terrain pieces, though. Anyone interested in them should pick them up, because the kits are leaving the GW webstore little by little without any notice. 3rd party retailers and ebay sellers have not yet completely caught on to that fact, though. I'm still hoping we get kits for the completed Dawnbringer houses from the Battletome, as well. Although I am somewhat afraid that we will have another Ossiarch bone palisade situation on our hands again.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

On 9/2/2023 at 1:13 AM, Satyrical Sophist said:

Another thing is that Cavaliers honestly slap. I've kind of underestimated what they can do with some pretty easily obtainable buffs. A unit of 5 will do serious damage to a most targets. One thing I hadn't quite factored in was how well Flaming weapons works for them, since a unit of 5 has 26 attacks, that works out as an expected 4.3 mortal wounds in addition, jumping up to a full 6 for a unit with Engage the Foe.

This point kept getting stuck in my mind for some reason.

If there is a weakness in the design of the new Cities book, in my opinion it's the Alchemite. It's just kind of absurd that this little 90 point wizard gives out both the best offensive buff and the best defensive buff in the book, for any human unit. It feels very restrictive for competitive list building. How do you justify a Battlemage for 100 points when this guy exists? What reason is there, if you are just going for peak efficiency, not to simply run 2 or even 3 Alchemites. Currently, the +1 to saves buff can be triggered as many times as you have Alchemites because it is not a spell and the +1 stacks because they didn't give it the usual wording ("+1 to saves if you are within 12" of this unit" vs. "...if you are within 12" of a unit with this ability").

I think we can only hope for an early FAQ for this guy, otherwise tournament lists will probably look realy samey for a while.

EDIT: The Lord-Castellant is 180 points, also gives out +1 to saves (longer range, but only to one unit) and goes in a lot of lists. Just as a point of reference.

Edited September 4, 2023 by Neil Arthur Hotep

[JackStreicher]

The Alchemite +1 save should be once per battle.

[Myrdin]

6 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

The Alchemite +1 save should be once per battle.

Nah, this book is already riddled with "once per battle" abiities.

Whereas other armies dont or very rarely have this type of limitation.

I`d say the Alchemite will probably go up in price, to maybe 120 points which would be reasonable or possibly even more - hopefully not. After all his armor buffing makes him unable to cast so you are always using only half of his potential, either magic or bonus to saves, never both

 

@Neil Arthur Hotep Regarding battlemages I think the spells that are race specific are kinda rubbish considering all of them have relatively high casting values and not so mind blowing effect. But I can still see BMages be interesting pick with extra range or bonus cast item pick.

You can always default to basic magic missile, and with that extra range you can play them as magic snipers heh.

Edited September 4, 2023 by Myrdin

[Lord Krungharr]

Cities will not get a terrain piece at least according to the leaked battletome on Imgur.  However I think a rather simpler garrisonable tower of somesort might have had good sense, and it just lets more terrain be on the table, which is sorely lacking in many AoS games (besides meaningful terrain rules, but that's for another thread).

Alchemite Warforger x2 behind Steam Tanks in Settler's Gain is pretty awesome stuff.  Then they can get the save buff AND potentially the MW bullets.  Gotta get a 2nd Warforger.

Hard to say yet what the most meta-stomping Cities army will be.  I'm thinking it's gonna end up being a much more varietous combined arms list than just Fusilier spam, or Stank spam, or Cavalier spam, or Drakespawn spam, etc.  

Losing coalition allies was really dum IMHO.  The book doesn't function or look like a city, with everyone interacting with each other.  It's all segregated districts now.  While I totally agree the old ways of having Krondys, a Celestial Prime, Fulminators, and a tiny smattering of City folk to make it legal was bad, they could just easily make a rule in the FAQ or Battlescroll "Coalition allies are limited to 400 points in 2K point games, and 200 points in 1K point games".  Make them the same as allies for army content, but coalition allies could still benefit from the Cities rules and get the Cities keywords.  At least a couple Orders work for all City folk, but the Hurricanum and Luminark are straight up magic, and magic works on everyone; they should be benefitting all City folk too.

[Satyrical Sophist]

1 hour ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

This point kept getting stuck in my mind for some reason.

If there is a weakness in the design of the new Cities book, in my opinion it's the Alchemite. It's just kind of absurd that this little 90 point wizard gives out both the best offensive buff and the best defensive buff in the book, for any human unit.

 

41 minutes ago, Myrdin said:

 

I`d say the Alchemite will probably go up in price, to maybe 120 points which would be reasonable or possibly even more - hopefully not. After all his armor buffing makes him unable to cast so you are always using only half of his potential, either magic or bonus to saves, never both

 

@Neil Arthur Hotep Regarding battlemages I think the spells that are race specific are kinda rubbish considering all of them have relatively high casting values and not so mind blowing effect. But I can still see BMages be interesting pick with extra range or bonus cast item pick.

You can always default to basic magic missile, and with that extra range you can play them as magic snipers heh.

People talked about the Alchemite, meaning I get to yammer about flaming weapons and Fusiliers!

OK, so there are some slightly unusual things particularly with the third battle round reroll hits.

• If you have flaming weapons and reroll hits, but no AoA then you produce exactly the same expected damage by choosing to reroll all non flaming hits as you do just rerolling misses. If the target has a 5+ or worse save, you do better just rerolling misses. If the target has a 3+ or better save, reroll all non flaming weapon triggers.
• If you have flaming weapons and reroll hits with AoA but no +1 to wound command trait, then you are better off rerolling any non 6s. If the target has a 6+ or worse save its the same, but any better save and you are better fishing for mortal wounds.
• If you have flaming weapons, reroll hits and AoA with the +1 to wound command trait you are now better off only rerolling misses if the target has a 5+ or worse armour save, and otherwise fishing for mortal wounds. 

The improvements are mostly pretty fractional, and if the target has any kind of mortal wound shrug you are better off going for the reroll misses.

 

Here is the thing that is kind of nutty, looking at the warforger at 90 points, working out the expected damage done per hundred points (I realise this is a fairly arbitrary one, but its how I normalised efficiency) then 30 fusiliers and a flaming weapons Alchemite, assuming that the Alchemite is doing nothing other than casting Flaming weapons to buff the 30 fusiliers.

In the range of useful values, he improves how efficient the unit is dramatically.  This is the increase in expected damage to each save.

2+ 77.08%,    3 + 45.83%,    4+ 30.21%,   5+ 20.83%,     6+ 14.58%    

If you literally doubled his points to 180 those 30 fusiliers are still more efficient per point against all armour saves other than 6+ armour saves (You would also do an expected 38 total damage to 6+ saves, which seems like probably enough at that point).

2+ 51.79%,    3+ 25.00%,    4+ 11.61%,   5+  3.57%,   6+ -1.79% 

I think even conservative increases (like the 120 suggestion) end up being a pretty insane buff.

2+ 67.76%,   3+  38.16%,    4+ 23.36%,    5+ 14.47%,   6+  8.55% 

 

I'm not entirely sure what the fix is. Fusiliers really do seem to be all about that flaming weapon buff. They are beaten by a lot of the dark elf shooting without it, even factoring in the +1 to wound command trait. They are actually dramatically out performed by Handbow Corsairs (assuming the fleetmaster gives the AoA), who are not only more efficient on a per point basis, but also a 90 point corsair unit will do slightly better damage than the 150 Fusiliers. Scourgerunner chariots also come out well in this comparison.

Am I missing any buffs here? The main relevant ones I've seen are AoA, the command trait that gives +1 to Castellite units that get AoA, fleet master buff for scourge privateers and the reroll hits buff (That one is one I've only used on the earlier MW calculation. Its very good when you get it, but it feels like a different conversation). I will double check the corsair comparison since I did it quickly, and the result honestly surprises me.

 

I think if I was having to go for a fix for them there are a couple I'd look into

• Straight up double the points cost of the Warforger BUT make him be able to either activate both abilities or at the very least, only take away the +1 to cast when he does his shield buff. It makes him EXPENSIVE, but still very good. It also cuts down on the orders that you can give out, having a pair of Warforgers standing next to each other means that they can always have multiple orders ready.
• Increase his cost dramatically, but not fully doubled, but keep rules as written.
• Adjust his rules, make flaming weapons have to target a unit. 

 

 

[Myrdin]

1 hour ago, Satyrical Sophist said:

I'm not entirely sure what the fix is. Fusiliers really do seem to be all about that flaming weapon buff. They are beaten by a lot of the dark elf shooting without it, even factoring in the +1 to wound command trait. They are actually dramatically out performed by Handbow Corsairs (assuming the fleetmaster gives the AoA), who are not only more efficient on a per point basis, but also a 90 point corsair unit will do slightly better damage than the 150 Fusiliers. Scourgerunner chariots also come out well in this comparison.

 

YES, they ARE poop!

*Rant incoming, coz the entire double page with them, the Fussil Major and the cannon is a instant mood killer every single time I go through the book.*

4+ 4+ -1 1 for 150pts is NOT a good deal. Saying stuff like:  "This is how all shooting in the game should be" (ok I am being a little mean here forgive me, but its a ridiculous argument) is just a coping mechanism for being dealt a subpar unit. But the fact remains that it just ISNT how majority of  main ranged units in the game are.

You need to overspend on Fusiliers with support pieces, drowning hundreds of points, limited traits and artifacts to make a subpar unit be somewhat worth their points.

Frankly same with the Wildhcorps Hunters. They too are 4+ 4+ outside of the unit champion who has the big arbalest weapon. Both of these rather expensive ranged units should had 3+ to wound for shooting at the very minimum (and Hunters also for combat), to be even remotely decent pick at that points range.

Its really sad that we are all to pretend like the "Fortified Positions" gimmick is such an amazing rule that elevates these 4+ 4+ -1 1 guys both in value and in price. When in fact they are just utterly bland. You look to your allied order armies and compare units of the same price category with them. Its not even a contest.

They should have been decent on their own, and become really good when invested into with support and unit synergy. Instead they are really, really meh on their own, and become decent only when you throw lots of extras in just to get some mileage out of them.

Haaah, Why cant GW seem to get the shooting of Cities gunpowder weaponry right I just cant understand. And they even took our Sisters of the Watch away just so we really dont have any other option than to opt for these...

Edited September 4, 2023 by Myrdin

[Lord Krungharr]

I think the hitting on a 4+ actually make sense for the blackpowder weapons (primitive and no barrel-rifling on stuff like that), but they should wound better IF they hit....and probably just do MW on wounds of 6 instead of damage, or D3 damage instead of MW.  Archer Arrows should hit better in the Fantasy quasi-medieval but wound worse, but maybe with better rend.  THEN sprinkle magic dust on stuff.

The Alchemite guy isn't really that OP even at 90pts; it requires a spell to go off (easily countered by many opponents, or just easily failable), and he's pretty squishy himself (also very targetable by many armies with teleporty guys, enemy spells or invocations, etc). 

I just wish we had a cool unique monstrous action for the Griffon and sea-monsters. 

[Myrdin]

4 minutes ago, Lord Krungharr said:

I think the hitting on a 4+ actually make sense for the blackpowder weapons (primitive and no barrel-rifling on stuff like that), but they should wound better IF they hit....and probably just do MW on wounds of 6 instead of damage, or D3 damage instead of MW.  Archer Arrows should hit better in the Fantasy quasi-medieval but wound worse, but maybe with better rend.  THEN sprinkle magic dust on stuff.

The Alchemite guy isn't really that OP even at 90pts; it requires a spell to go off (easily countered by many opponents, or just easily failable), and he's pretty squishy himself (also very targetable by many armies with teleporty guys, enemy spells or invocations, etc). 

I just wish we had a cool unique monstrous action for the Griffon and sea-monsters.