AoS Cities of Sigmar Battletome 2023 Discussion

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

15 minutes ago, The Lost Sigmarite said:

Quite interesting...

Mayber for a base 150p shooting piece, maybe the cannon is better. Let's roll out the arguments for the cannon :

1. Doesn't need to be babysitted as much as the Fusiliers
2. Acess to -4 rend

Obviously this needs to be put to the test on the tabletop, but in regards of the Fusiliers not being as great in practice compared as on the paper, maybe we've been sleeping on the cannon ?

Cannons are definitely a tier below Fusiliers.

- Same points, worse damage

- A lot swingier (fewer shots, random damage, most notably d6 damage for the high rend option)

- Probably still want a dedicated hero

- Harder to buff/command

- Worse for battalions and drops

In my opinion, a single cannon is not very good. Spamming them makes them better, because more shots mitigate their swingy attack profiles. Four cannons plus Lord-Ordinator ally currently works, but it is a bit iffy because that interaction might be gone with the next Stormcast update (plus no order from non-Cities heroes). Artillery spam has a bunch of downsides at the best of times, though. Most notably, about a third of your points will be burried in your deployment zone and not interact with thr objective game. I think cannons are most viable in a castle shooting spam list where they are used alongside Fusiliers to really overwhelm the opponent's shooting defenses. 

[Doko]

3 hours ago, Beliman said:

@Doko, thx for the answer!

What I don't understand is why Thunderers should cost 150p (or more) and Fusiliers need to be 130p. Even if Thunderers have a better hit and save (3+ vs 4+), they have less dmg and less range than Fussiliers (18" vs 24"):

They both have their own abilities: One has Supressing Fire, but Fusiliers have Fortified Position. But remember that Supressing Fire is behind a 2D6 moral check and Fortified Position don't need any roll to trigger.

Btw, I'm not saying that Thunderers are bad (they are the MVPs of KOs), and they needed that points nerf in the last GHB. But their warscroll is not that stong, the whole problem was because KOs synergies are so good that even costing 165p, they continued to be used in tournaments.

Maybe Fusiliers are exactly the same for Cities of Sigmar.

hnnnn i did bad my numbers sorry,i did it with 10 models,i forgot that thunderers are only 5 models. yup they are pretty bad. i would say if im reading it well with aetheshot rifle the profile is 2attacks 3 hit 4 wound 1 rend 1 damage? that profile is only 3'3 rend 1 damage that is very low. i would say his cost is around 110 if i am not reading wrong the scroll because it seems very low damage 

[The Lost Sigmarite]

1 hour ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

Artillery spam has a bunch of downsides at the best of times, though. Most notably, about a third of your points will be burried in your deployment zone and not interact with thr objective game. I think cannons are most viable in a castle shooting spam list where they are used alongside Fusiliers to really overwhelm the opponent's shooting defenses. 

I think that's the crux of the problem right here. And that also works for the shooting castle build with Fusiliers. From my experience with the previous BT, when you were playing a shooting build you parked your screens right at the edge of the objectives to control them but also not overextend too much. That meant you barely moved out of your deployment zone and certainly not out of your half of the board. I think it's going to play exactly the same with blocks of 30 Fusiliers, you're going to park your Steelhelm screens at the edge of the objective, consecrate it, probably get All Out Defense because of Hold the Line, yeah now your Steelhelms have a 3+/6+ (+2 if Warforger is around) but still you ain't going nowhere on the board, you're very susceptible of having the objective stolen since you're standing at the edge of it, and if your guys aren't reinforced they're still 10 wounds so pretty flimsy. Then your opponent is in the cookie jar (Fusilier backline) and if you haven't wiped them of the board with shooting it's GG.

Tbf the shooting gallery build might not be the panacea after all of @JackStreicher's testing. It certainly looks boring to me anyway to sit back and pew pew at everything on the board. I wonder if Cavalier spam could work at 2000 pts, but I still think a combined arms approach (some shooting, some melee) is the best. 

Edited August 16, 2023 by The Lost Sigmarite

[Doko]

the cannon isnt SO BAD, if both units are unbuffed the damage is better the cannon vs save 2,the same vs save 4 and worse vs save 5 or 6.  but in general i would say the cannon is worse unbuffed and worse even the gap is huge if buffed

also cannon dont take leadership check and dont loose damage untill killed while fusilers loose damage with each model killed.

in general the fusilers are best buffed and i would say unbuffed also,but unbufed the gap is small.

i would say cannon cost is 120 and fusilers 130

Edited August 16, 2023 by Doko

[Myrdin]

13 hours ago, Lord Krungharr said:

For my Cthulhu Cult Cities army, wondering if it's just terrible to ally in Bundo Whalebiter the megagargant....of course making him into a Cthulhu monster with a Mutalith face and tiny wings and scary claws of some sort?  He's 440 points, is the one who can kick objectives, and stuff up to three tiny enemies in his net.  Not bad actually, much better than the crappy One Eyed Grunnock Warstomper that Chaos gets.  

Wondering if too much theme will sacrifice viability.  I could do 2 Kharybdisses and 2 WarHydras instead for the monsters.  War Hydras do seem superior for the shooting and healing, but the no Inspiring Presence/Rally bubbles are pretty nice too actually.  

Nah go for it.

My entire army is Cathay-Nippon themed, and there are units I simply do not have a proper proxi for (entire dwarf line), so I dont field them. It would be great to field some of those units since they are a part of the book (talking about the previous one) and not having access to them does gimp me here and there, but its doable.

And mainly its fun playing the theme you`ve set out to play with.

That being said, if I ever get a good proxi I will try to hamfist them in haha. Saw some nice 3D printable Oni. If downscaled they might make for good hammerers.

This new book and some of the characters and units are making me hyped, since I have some good replacement for them, yet had nothing to use them for in the previous one (mostly all those support characters, and the Ogre with his sniper hummie buddy, that one I have a great thematic proxi for, though it depends on the base size the ogor is using).

Edited August 16, 2023 by Myrdin

[Beliman]

28 minutes ago, Doko said:

hnnnn i did bad my numbers sorry,i did it with 10 models,i forgot that thunderers are only 5 models. yup they are pretty bad. i would say if im reading it well with aetheshot rifle the profile is 2attacks 3 hit 4 wound 1 rend 1 damage? that profile is only 3'3 rend 1 damage that is very low. i would say his cost is around 110 if i am not reading wrong the scroll because it seems very low damage 

Yep. Grundstock Thunderers are exactly that. And remember that they were nerfed from 150 to 165p!
But the point is that our synergies are enough to make them "good".

That's why I think that maths don't show the whole picture. Maybe 5 thunderers are not good enough, but 15 thunderers+Admiral+Khemist+Ironclad (1220p) is a good start point. Maybe people see all fo this like a tax, a bill to pay. But what I see...

Maybe Cities of Sigmar are exactly the same. A "Castelite Formation" of 600 to 800p, but that's just the core, and there are still a lot of points to finish the list.

[Doko]

14 minutes ago, Beliman said:

Yep. Grundstock Thunderers are exactly that. And remember that they were nerfed from 150 to 165p!
But the point is that our synergies are enough to make them "good".

That's why I think that maths don't show the whole picture. Maybe 5 thunderers are not good enough, but 15 thunderers+Admiral+Khemist+Ironclad (1220p) is a good start point. Maybe people see all fo this like a tax, a bill to pay. But what I see...

Maybe Cities of Sigmar are exactly the same. A "Castelite Formation" of 600 to 800p, but that's just the core, and there are still a lot of points to finish the list.

i know your point,but that is a bad balance of gw,the unit dont have to have a cost balanced with full buffs.the cost must be unbufed.

then put the points to the units doing the buffs, per example in the kharadron example the thunderers must cost less but then maybe if the combo is very good them nerf in points the irondlad,and the two heroes

so if the combo is balanced and is 1220 points,reduce the thunderers to 110 and add that 150 points betwen the ironclad and the heroes,some as ironclad +80 and each hero +30 so the combo cost the same but the unit isnt overcosted used outside of the combo

Edited August 16, 2023 by Doko

[JackStreicher]

4 hours ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

I'm not surprised these guys are not doing much for you in 10s and without the mortal wound spell. That spell really is what makes them go from just decent to great.

I would say the Fusiliers don't do much without support. 4+/4+ is just not a very good profile. But they can easily be 3+/3+, and the damag out of a buffed block of 20 already looks decent on paper.

However, what competitive players are planning to do is run blocks of 30 with the mortal wound buff. And that is pretty absurd, because  at that point they easily point-and-click remove units. And you can't shoot them because of Fortified Position and Return Fire. And you can't charge them because you get the mortal wounds on Unleash Hell as well if the spell goes off. Plus they give you potentially two battle tactics. Also, that mortal wound spell is an aura for no reason, so feel free to slap even more shooting into that bubble.

Personally, I think Fusiliers will be good until the Alchemite warscroll gets errata'd (because even at 200 points that guy is probably still viable). The combo is strong and has very few moving parts to disrupt. You just need to get the spell off.

I assumed as much. If GW stops Fusiliers from being reinforced twice imo the Warforger doesn't need a point adjustment.

Damage unbuffed Fusiliers:
22 Shots, VS
3+ Armour: 2,75
4+ Armour: 3,66
5+ Armour: 4,58

Cannon unbuffed damage:
Cannonball
3+ Armour: 0.55
4+ Armour: 2,43
5+ Armour: 2,91

Armour Piercing Shell:
3+ Armour: 2.5
4+ Armour: 2.5
5+ Armour: 2.5

 

Jup, the cannon is the worst XD

Maybe CoS heralds the new edition in which shooting will support armies, not carry them. Which would be awesome. In turn one Skaven shot me off the table yesterday with their Stormfiends and jezzails -> Nice "drawbacks" for dealiong 40+ wounds of Damage in one shooting phase.
Let's face it: Shooting in AoS is broken (too good) so I'd welcome that change

Edited August 16, 2023 by JackStreicher

[Beliman]

23 minutes ago, Doko said:

so if the combo is balanced and is 1220 points,reduce the thunderers to 110 and add that 150 points betwen the ironclad and the heroes,some as ironclad +80 and each hero +30 so the combo cost the same but the unit isnt overcosted used outside of the combo

To be fair, the last GHB increased the Khemist, Admiral and Ironclad points too (from 10 to 15 extra points). Take in mind that an Ironclad has a meh profiles and stats (for a 500p unit), and Admiral and Khemist are just there to buff thunderers with once-per-battle abilities and even artefacts.

[Doko]

20 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

Let's face it: Shooting in AoS is broken (too good) so I'd welcome that change

sorry but im not agree,its the oposite. usually shooting units are overcosted and rigth now the meta only have one shooting army in the top that is slanesh and that is because slanesh is veeeeeeery undercosted  the blisbarbs archers and the cavalry.

the meta is:

top:vampires and bonereapers, vampires due to magic and control of the table.bonereapers due to antimagic and undercosted units

secont tier: seraphons, due kroack is broken and umdercosted by 100 points,also the combo of incarnate with new spell to make him wild together seraphom is broken

third tier: demons in general, slanesh because all is undercosted in detaill the blisbarbs must cost 180/200 and not the joke 160 and the cavalry that put -1 save need other 20/30 increase.

khorne due to be antimagic and in general undercosted units.

tzenth due to the combo of incarnate

nurgle due to control of the table.

 

so shooting isnt powerfull now when in the meta only slanesh use shooting and everyone knows that blisbarbs are undercosted.

 

in fact every shooting unit would need a reduction of 20% in points to be more balanced against melle units in paper

[Flippy]

Have you already seen this? Looks like an in-depth analysis.

Cities of Sigmar: Top Three Power Combos – Plastic Craic

[Doko]

yup i saw it,its interesting.

but the problem is compare combos to(as the author said the most broken and umbalanced combo) blisbarbs archers combo because then every combo seems bad even if it is good due to how broken is slanesh.

and even then this autor did it wrong,because in the comparation didnt taken in count the +1 rend of blisbarbs(-1 save enemys)with the cavalry  and he is doing 1140 points of fussilers+mage vs 960 of blisbarbs not full buffed. 

this dude is knows as a hater of cities so every one of his articles is ****** and biased,they are done to lie to who read it as the politicians.

other of his articles cry about how broken is the new book because we have a spell to do ignore saves even at ranged.........everyone knows that the spell is only for melle,but is a example of as this dude lie on his articles and worse even you cant reply to his post because they dont admit any post if you point his errors

per example in his table fussilers are better than slanesh.

but if you compare same points of fusilers to same points of slanesh and take the +1 rend of slanesh then the fussilers vs save 4 makes 55 damage as blisbarbs and that is with every order,2 cp,one warlord trait and every buff posible to cities while slanesh only with one cp and one buff

again reading this article is beyond me how blisbarbs dont cost 180/200. i guess happens as goblins,they were bad for a while and then gw overbuff them

Edited August 16, 2023 by Doko

[The Lost Sigmarite]

38 minutes ago, Doko said:

again reading this article is beyond me how blisbarbs dont cost 180/200. i guess happens as goblins,they were bad for a while and then gw overbuff them

I think GW learned from the Blissbarbs and that's why the Fusiliers hit on a 4+. Maybe the Blissbarbs need to hit on a 4+. But this is a debate for a Slaanesh thread, here it's Cities of Sigmar, get this heresy outta here before someone calls the witch hunters.

50 minutes ago, Flippy said:

Have you already seen this? Looks like an in-depth analysis.

Cities of Sigmar: Top Three Power Combos – Plastic Craic

Great article, I would've added the Cavalier combo I discussed I think page 1 here (?). People are focusing a lot on Fusiliers (so hot right now !) but I think are sleeping on Cavaliers being a great scalpel unit when buffed properly. Although they did acknowledge the superiority of the Steam Tank so great.

Edited August 16, 2023 by The Lost Sigmarite

[Doko]

the problem of cavaliers is his range 1" and unit of 5 doing them umplayable and useless in units bigger than msu.

and buff a unit msu is allways no eficient and bad,so nobody is speaking about combos with cavaliers.

they are great as unit of 5 yes,but dont worth invest points in buff a unit of 5 and is umplayable units of 10 or 15

[Myrdin]

1 hour ago, Flippy said:

Have you already seen this? Looks like an in-depth analysis.

Cities of Sigmar: Top Three Power Combos – Plastic Craic

So THATs why Lord Krungharr is so hyped about the Steam Tanks. 

The removal of degredation table a changing some of ST randomnes namely its movement are huge overall buffs, before you even take a look at the improved shooting.

Damn I might have to get around finishing mine, since this looks promising

Edited August 16, 2023 by Myrdin

[Doko]

the best and the reason to bring steamtank is the  save2 to delay oponent

Edited August 16, 2023 by Doko

[The Lost Sigmarite]

In 1000 pts I'm gonna play the 5 Cavaliers in the army set alongside a Cavalier-Marshall. And if Cavaliers do come in the Vanguard box, I think most people will want to make the most of it and use them even at 2000 pts. Cities looks like an expensive army and so every unit you get at a discount counts. Apart from the most sweaty GT competitors, I don't think most players will have the money or patience to build + paint 70 Fusiliers.

Personally, I think Steam Tanks are legit tempting. They're big models with lots of flat, easy to paint surfaces, they bring centerpiece models to make you happy (who doesn't want to play with the big cool mini), they have great rules worth building upon and 2 brings you 1/4 of your 2000 pts list at the price of a Vanguard box. For someone beginning the army, their cost/effectiveness both in points and currency is unmatched.

[Doko]

i dont go to big tournaments,and tournaments and games in my store and club let us big freedom to proxys.

i gonna use my 30 irondrakes that are useless with this book as the fusilers.also all umpainted that my store and club dont care.

or my wyld ryders gonna use them as the drakespawn knigths.

so in general i have all my lists allready builts of my old citys collection,i only need build the metal hero from the box and the unit of 10 stellhelms.

 

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

6 hours ago, Flippy said:

Have you already seen this? Looks like an in-depth analysis.

Cities of Sigmar: Top Three Power Combos – Plastic Craic

It is an interesting article but it somewhat misses the mark for me. Personally, I think in the case of Cities of Sigmar, putting 1000+ points into a huge death start combo is not how you should play the book.

One strength of the new Cities book is that a lot of good combos and threats exist at fewer than 500 points. You can play several of them at once, compete in all phases and have multiple threats with good power projection. Combined arms is a good play style in this book. Battle tactics and orders strongly reward it.

20-30 Fusiliers with the Alchemite are good. It's a strong unit that requires only minimal commitment and if the combo gets disrupted, it doesn't ****** over your game plan.  But 60 Fusiliers with two Alchemites are not twice as good. At that point, you need to dedicate over half your list, subfaction and command trait to it and it severely hinders the rest of your list.

But you could just be running some of the other good combos. A Steam Tank and Commander power pair. A unit of Cavaliers plus Marshal. A Sorceress and her entourage. Some dwarves and their lord. Or you stick to humans and take their synergy pieces like Zenestra and the Command Corps. You can easily run a list with 3-4 threats plus screens plus goodstuff buff pieces. So personally, I really don't see why you would rather go all-in on 60 Fusiliers just so you can do overkill numbers at the expense of everything else.

[Doko]

thats my problem.

doing lists i want use many combos but i get to 2k points very fast and i cant use many units that i would like it.

-the combos that i name core and i get in every list are:

   -30 fussilers + metal mage + 10 steelhelms

  -sorcerer+dreadspears+black ark fleetmaster+20 scourge privates

then the rest of the list i try diferent combos but i havent enougth points.

i want 3 dwarf units for the tactic,also the comand corp is needed for other tactic,i need some human cavalry for other tactic etc 

[The Lost Sigmarite]

11 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

But you could just be running some of the other good combos. A Steam Tank and Commander power pair. A unit of Cavaliers plus Marshal. A Sorceress and her entourage. Some dwarves and their lord. Or you stick to humans and take their synergy pieces like Zenestra and the Command Corps. You can easily run a list with 3-4 threats plus screens plus goodstuff buff pieces. So personally, I really don't see why you would rather go all-in on 60 Fusiliers just so you can do overkill numbers at the expense of everything else.

When you look at that "500 pts synergy piece" that's where you can make race mixing viable imo. Take a couple Steam Tanks (500) next to a Dwarf King and his entourage of Hammerers (410), it's viable, fun, thematic and it allows for a combined arms approach where by not putting all your eggs in one basket, you make for a fun list for both yourself and the guy opposite the board facing you (because let's face it facing 70 Fusiliers is not gonna be fun for anyone involved). 

Now that you say that, I might get ~500 pts of dwarfs to tech into 2000 pts. It definitely sounds fun ! Here's a rough sketch :

• Steam Tank with Commander (270)
• Marshall and Relic Envoy (90)
• Cavalier-Marshall (120)
• Alchemite Warforger (90)
• Warden King (110)
• Runelord (100)
   
• x10 Steelhelms (100)
• x10 Steelhelms (100)
• x5 Cavaliers (180)
• x20 Fusiliers (300)
• x20 Hammerers (300)
• Steam Tank (230)

Total 1990 pts. It's a synthesis of what you said with multiple threats and comboes at >500 pts, that play in all the phases of the game. Shoot with Fusiliers or engage in melee with Hammerers and Cavaliers ? The world is your oyster at this stage. One combo shut down ? You have extra ones waiting. It's a great way to play because it makes you play and learn every single phase of the game, great for beginners. 

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

17 minutes ago, Doko said:

i want 3 dwarf units for the tactic,also the comand corp is needed for other tactic,i need some human cavalry for other tactic etc 

In my opinion, trying to do both the elf and dwarf tactic in the same list is really tricky. I think you can do a human/fusilier core and either three dwarf or three elf units for the tactic no problem. But doing both stretches you very thin.

[JackStreicher]

14 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

In my opinion, trying to do both the elf and dwarf tactic in the same list is really tricky

Agreed, it’s either or + humans 

[The Lost Sigmarite]

27 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

In my opinion, trying to do both the elf and dwarf tactic in the same list is really tricky. I think you can do a human/fusilier core and either three dwarf or three elf units for the tactic no problem. But doing both stretches you very thin.

20 Corsairs + Sorceress + Fleetmaster is only 370 pts for arguably one of the best combos of the book. A Warden King and his 20 Hammerers + Runelord is 510 points and it's a good combo too. You can definitely squeeze some in lists and still have enough space for lots of humans or a few expensive pieces. But you won't score battle tactics, you would need a little bit more units for that. Like maybe 20 more Corsairs, or 10 Longbeards...

[Doko]

i think i gonna stick to my core of fussilers combo +pirates combos in every game,then i gonna changing the fillers to give use to every unit in my collection 😀

 

for fun i want play some game with the black dragon giving back mortals with misses and together drakespawn knights and cavalry also.

we dont have acess to any debuff of -hit with ally units?