AoS Cities of Sigmar Battletome 2023 Discussion

[Satyrical Sophist]

9 hours ago, Beliman said:

Pha's Protection is a "Citys of Sigmar Humans only" spell.

 

 

I was giving Ironbreakers (a very high save unit that can easily get a ward of 4+) as one of the reasons a lot of the human stuff only works on human stuff, same as corsairs having a silly high number of individual attacks (it would be two command abilities but between shooting and combat it would be 5 attack each in a turn) not being eligible for the blazing attacks from the gold mage forge guy. 

 

EDIT: Original sounded annoyed, which wasn't my intent.

Edited August 10, 2023 by Satyrical Sophist

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

42 minutes ago, The Lost Sigmarite said:

Looking at all these comments, my thoughts are this looks like a tough army to expand from 1000 to 2000 pts. Once you got your little 1000 pts list from the army set, where do you go ? Do you invest in Steam Tanks like @Neil Arthur Hotep says, or Gotrek like myself ? Or more Steelhelms, Cavaliers and Fusilisers ? Zenestra ? Battlemages ? There's so much you can go into and you can't fit everything in 2000 pts.

My two cents on all this is :

• I'll wait until Ihave experience with the BT at 1000 pts before teching up (that's what I'm doing)
• In 2000 pts territory I think you will want to run reinforced units of Steelhelms, so prepare to buy some more (hope the vanguard box comes with some)
• Trying to use every model I use at 1000 pts in 2000 pts. For example, I want to run a Cavalier-Marshal at 1000, so he will be in my 2000 pts list to save money - so I think I'll invest in more Cavaliers to support him at larger scale games.
• Battlemages will be needed at 2000 pts imo because more magic is always great.

Also do you think Zenestra is an auto-include at 2000 pts or even at 1000 pts ? She's super likely to go up in points, she's a steal at 150 right now. 

Personally, I want to run the gunpowder units that are not in the launch box, but I am considering the box anyway because it is a good base. I am currently thinking that I will need 20 Steelhelms and an Alchemite anyway. 5 Cavaliers and a Horse Marshall at 300 also seem like a good power pair. Honestly, I see very little reason not to have those in every list except theme.

I have 1000 points of Cities in the form of 3 Steam Tanks and a Hurricanum right now. I don't think running them all is strictly speaking good, but it makes getting to 2000 points easy.

Personally, if you are sticking with humans, I would not go super heavy on magic. Unless you are going with Hallowheart or Settler's Gain, that is. The Battlemages have good spells, but they are high CV and so that kinda balances out their innate +1 to cast. And a 1 cast wizard that does nothing else is a hard sell even at 100 points. However, going Hallowheart and spamming them is absolutely worth it. Pha's Protection, Pall of Doom and Wildform are all worth building around. Makes the Alchemite more consistent, too.

In my opinion, Zynestra is currently too good in human-centric lists. How can you possibly justify bringing the Command Corps or a cannon for 150 points if you could just add her instead? I think she will no doubt go up in points. She and at least 1 Alchemite seem like absolute auto-includes right now.

[JackStreicher]

1 hour ago, The Lost Sigmarite said:

she's a steal at 150 right now. 

Depends, she‘s very reliant on that prayer and she gets no bonuses. Apart from the prayer she does almost nothing. I‘d expect her to go up to 180/190.

1 hour ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

It may not be a good list, but it gives you a chance to be the guy who blew apart Archaon with a bunch of armour piercing shells turn one.

Huehuehue watch me

Archaon, the Lord of the En*Booooom* - The mortal realms have been saved!

 

 

 

imo the army will usually be human and a single other race: Either Aelves or Duardin, seldom both. My reasoning is that both factions offer some support, however there‘s not enough wiggle room to fit both into the human army.

Edited August 10, 2023 by JackStreicher

[Satyrical Sophist]

5 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

And a 1 cast wizard that does nothing else is a hard sell even at 100 points. However, going Hallowheart and spamming them is absolutely worth it. Pha's Protection, Pall of Doom and Wildform are all worth building around. Makes the Alchemite more consistent, too.

 

I'm still trying to wrap my head around orders, but heroes have a use just for existing near a unit. Any additional heroes can hold niche orders incase they are needed, since each unit can have a whole bunch of orders over a round, just not two in the same turn. So your additional characters can do that as well. 

 

I quite like the look of the Van Densts, both have good fighting profiles that get pretty brutal against daemons or wizards, and at 80 points each they are the cheapest heroes while also being among the toughest. Plus I'm kind of just obsessed with Lethis giving you a load of priests. I think I'm understanding it right that Lethis even makes uniques priests, and everyone gets a universal spell lore. 

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

Currently thinking about building this list from the launch box:

Greywater Fastness

Steam Tanks Commander (270) + Steam Tank (230)=500

Cavalliers (180)+Marshall (120)=300

Fusiliers x2 (300)+Warhulk (150)+Cannon (150)=600

Steelhelms ×2=200

Zynestra 150

Alchemite 90

Total 1840 points with 160 points left for assorted heroes or whatever.

I like this list because it is thematic and uses mostly new models. It also has both units that can suppresson fire and units that can make charge, which I think is the intended Freeguild playstyle.

 

[Lord Krungharr]

2 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

Currently thinking about building this list from the launch box:

Greywater Fastness

Steam Tanks Commander (270) + Steam Tank (230)=500

Cavalliers (180)+Marshall (120)=300

Fusiliers x2 (300)+Warhulk (150)+Cannon (150)=600

Steelhelms ×2=200

Zynestra 150

Alchemite 90

Total 1840 points with 160 points left for assorted heroes or whatever.

I like this list because it is thematic and uses mostly new models. It also has both units that can suppresson fire and units that can make charge, which I think is the intended Freeguild playstyle.

 

Toss in some allied Tree Revenants for a teleporting unit, and an endless spell...SOLID.  I like it.  Won't be using that myself but I like it.  

[The Lost Sigmarite]

2 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

Currently thinking about building this list from the launch box:

Greywater Fastness

Steam Tanks Commander (270) + Steam Tank (230)=500

Cavalliers (180)+Marshall (120)=300

Fusiliers x2 (300)+Warhulk (150)+Cannon (150)=600

Steelhelms ×2=200

Zynestra 150

Alchemite 90

Total 1840 points with 160 points left for assorted heroes or whatever.

I like this list because it is thematic and uses mostly new models. It also has both units that can suppresson fire and units that can make charge, which I think is the intended Freeguild playstyle.

Not played a lot of 2000 pts games, but I have reservations about the ability of 200 points of Steelhelms defending 600 pts of shooting all by themselves. This seems a little flimsy to me. You sure you don't want to reinforce them ?

Also you skipped the foot marshall from the launch box, but he's pretty mid so I understand. 

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

3 minutes ago, The Lost Sigmarite said:

Not played a lot of 2000 pts games, but I have reservations about the ability of 200 points of Steelhelms defending 600 pts of shooting all by themselves. This seems a little flimsy to me. You sure you don't want to reinforce them ?

Also you skipped the foot marshall from the launch box, but he's pretty mid so I understand. 

The Steelhelms are just screens, but the Tanks are proper anvils, so that is fine. Especially if the Zynestra 5+ ward prayer goes off.

The real defense is blasting everything off the table before it can reach the gun line, though. 😎 

[The Lost Sigmarite]

So you use the Tanks as forward damage sponges to protect the Fusiliers ? Interesting, interesting... It's true it cuts on painting 20 extra Steelhelms, cool if you hate painting large units (I do).

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

2 minutes ago, The Lost Sigmarite said:

So you use the Tanks as forward damage sponges to protect the Fusiliers ? Interesting, interesting... It's true it cuts on painting 20 extra Steelhelms, cool if you hate painting large units (I do).

Yeah, basically. I am not excited enough about Steelhelms to paint more than 20. Even that might be pushing it, tbh.

[JackStreicher]

15 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

Yeah, basically. I am not excited enough about Steelhelms to paint more than 20. Even that might be pushing it, tbh.

Yup. Great models, but flimsy with boring stats and rules ^^

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

Just now, JackStreicher said:

Yup. Great models, but flimsy with boring stats and rules ^^

Also I just hate batch painting. The new Cities seem like they can pull off horde lists, though, if that's your thing. Tahlia Vedra enables infantry spam pretty well.

[Doko]

1 hour ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

Zynestra is currently too good in human-centric lists

150 points for:

have to choose betwen: 

   -66% chance of ward5 only to humans

  -extra mov to humans

  -1 mortal to enemy priest or mages(after do numbers with the 3+,2+ and d3 the maths is only 1 mortal median)

to me she is even bad and i dont incluse her in any on my theorycal lists.

 

for same cost per example many other armys get a permanent aura pf ward6 that i preffer a 100% chance of get ward 6 before a 66% chance of ward5 because i dont like take chances.

per example seraphon astrolith,for same cost give a ward6 AND extra range in spells and more things.

i dont think zelestra be good,even to me need cost reduction,she is only a named(cant be upgraded) that only have one skill that is a prayer that isnt game changing and too much unreliably.

even i preffer add one of the new mages only giving the +1 save before than zelestra and for half points

[JackStreicher]

6 minutes ago, Doko said:

even i preffer add one of the new mages only giving the +1 save before than zelestra and for half points

She‘s also a mage with +1 to unbind. That’s worth something.

[Doko]

1 minute ago, JackStreicher said:

She‘s also a mage with +1 to unbind. That’s worth something.

she isnt a mage,is a priest that can dyspell with +1

yes thats cool,but old runelord was a priest with +2 to dyspell and a two great prayers with a cost of 90 and never was used out of the irondrakes bomb.

zelestra for sure isnt bad,but she is veeeeeeery far of be overpower and broken as everyone think,in fact pretty sure that she wont be used in competitive due to be too much points for a buff only to humans(in competitive is a must have mix humans,elfs and dwarfs) and too much unreliably

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

Zynestra in brief:

• 9 wounds, so a small hero for battalions
• One extra order, as always with all heroes
• 4+ ward makes her survivable
• +1 unbind, I think the only one in Cities
• Garbo combat stats, but pulses 1d3 mortal wounds twice per combat phase: At the start and when she activates.
• All three prayer modes are good, and if you push her foreward you get to pick two of them. 18" 5+ ward bubble will always be useful.

 Of course, she is less useful in lists that heavily make use of dwarves and elves. But in a human list board-wide +2" move is just super strong, and a 5+ ward bubble will allow you to win engagements you would otherwise lose.

What's good about her is honestly how little you need to build around her. You put your three big threats into your list and then you just throw her in because she is so cheap and everything she does is so broadly useful regardless of game plan. Comparisons to heroes in other armies are honestly completely immaterial because you are not choosing between a 6+ ward bubble for 100 and a 5+ ward on a roll for 150 in this army. Her being unique also barely matters because what command trait or artefact would you even want to put on her?

Like I said before, if you compare her at her point level, I don't think there is really a competition between her and a cannon, or a second unit of fusiliers, or even a battlemage or whatever. Only the Alchemite competes, but that is because that guy is also too cheap and spamable.

Edited August 10, 2023 by Neil Arthur Hotep

[The Lost Sigmarite]

1 hour ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

Also I just hate batch painting. The new Cities seem like they can pull off horde lists, though, if that's your thing. Tahlia Vedra enables infantry spam pretty well.

Oh please no, not infantry spam ! I don't want to paint 100+ models and then move them around a board !

I think I would do this at 2000 pts, using my 1000 pts list as a basis (as per my principes I have to re-use every mini there to prevent compulsive and useless buys at the local GW).

• Freeguild Cavalier-Marshal (120)
• Freeguild Marshal & Relic Envoy (90)
• Alchemite Warforger (90)
• Pontifex Zenestra (150)
• Gotrek (480)
   
• x20 Freeguild Steelhelms (200)
• x20 Freeguild Fusiliers (300)
• x5 Freeguild Cavaliers (180)
• x5 Freeguild Cavaliers (180)

Total is 1790 points with the last 210 points filled with whatever scraps I can find in the likely to come Vanguard box and an endless spell, sadly no allies because Gotrek took all the allied points. One day I'll get 2 Steam Tanks as an alternative to Gotrek. 

Edit : I feel like we CoS players will need movement trays if we want to quickly move our blocks of humans around the board quickly... shame GW doesn't sell some anymore.

Edited August 10, 2023 by The Lost Sigmarite

[Doko]

17 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

Like I said before, if you compare her at her point level, I don't think there is really a competition between her and a cannon, or a second unit of fusiliers, or even a battlemage or whatever. Only the Alchemite competes, but that is because that guy is also too cheap and spamable

not his point level. but for 260 the luminark gives ward 6 allways,can dispell and cast one spell and have mortal wounds damage also.

if i must choose betwen those two i think i would choose the luminark even being 110 points expensiver

also if she wasnt a named could get the enhacement to reroll prayers that then shen would be good now that isnt so unreliably

Edited August 10, 2023 by Doko

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

I just saw that the hurricanum gets to deal mortals in the hero phase, not your hero phase. That combined with its ability to get around Look out, Sir! has honestly made it a lot more attractive to me again.

[The Lost Sigmarite]

Well guess who just got a headstart for the BT release by founding 5 Freeguild Cavaliers hidden in his bedroom ? 

I really do hope they're the same base size... Now all I gotta do is motivate myself to paint the last 3.

Edited August 10, 2023 by The Lost Sigmarite

[Doko]

a shame that they got deleted and not replaced by a new resculpt.

were great looking(to me even more beautifull than the new)

[Frowny]

I think the problem is they gave all the griffon everything to storm cast. Also the dragon everything....

[Doko]

then why remove this and not general on gryfon?

was so cool and thematic a army with karl franz and many of these gryfons following him.

[The Lost Sigmarite]

Side note but I hope the vanguard box comes with different content than the army set, and that it's spammable so you can grow your collection quickly at a nice discount. 

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

2 minutes ago, The Lost Sigmarite said:

Side note but I hope the vanguard box comes with different content than the army set, and that it's spammable so you can grow your collection quickly at a nice discount. 

They generally like to throw one non-spamable kit in there. I could imagine a Castelites box with the Major, Fusiliers and Cannon. Or maybe a box that includes the Freeguild General/Marshal/Karl Franz if they want to shift some old kits.