Soulblight Gravelords Discussion - 3rd edition.

[Sception]

once per hero phase, heal up to three summonable units, the units must be near your heroes, & they heal a bit more if they're also near your gravesites.

[TechnoVampire]

1 minute ago, Sception said:

once per hero phase, heal up to three summonable units, the units must be near your heroes, & they heal a bit more if they're also near your gravesites.

What I attempted to say, but clearer 😆

[N.I.B.]

Sorry for being unclear, I meant to ask whether you could trigger it more than once (not asking about the effects). As I understand it, previously each hero that could use the trait could trigger it and it was FAQ'd. Now you say it's down to a single trigging per turn?

[Sception]

No.  Once per hero phase, not per hero.  a nearby hero is necessary to make a summonable unit a valid target, but the heroes to not generate the ability.  Mechanically it isn't something the heroes do, it's something you do as the player.

Edited April 20, 2023 by Sception

[N.I.B.]

3 hours ago, Sception said:

No.  Once per hero phase, not per hero. 

No. The only restriction of 'once per phase' is regarding the target of the effect, i.e. 3 summonable units within 12" from a certain Hero. There's nothing that says you cannot do it again in the same phase from another hero triggerpoint, targeting different units. The precedence was that each hero could trigger this. Now the wording has changed but it's unclear. Looks like this too needs a FAQ.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

6 minutes ago, N.I.B. said:

No. The only restriction of 'once per phase' is regarding the target of the effect, i.e. 3 summonable units within 12" from a certain Hero. There's nothing that says you cannot do it again in the same phase from another hero triggerpoint, targeting different units. The precedence was that each hero could trigger this. Now the wording has changed but it's unclear. Looks like this too needs a FAQ.

@Sception is correct.

The rules says, "In your hero phase, you can pick up to three units wholly within 12 of a hero". It says nowhere that you do this "for each hero" or anything like that, and that language would have to be there to allow you to trigger the effect multiple times. You just get to do it once. The language and logic are clear, there is no need for an FAQ.

[N.I.B.]

timestamp 17:45 seems others think that it should be FAQd.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

Just now, N.I.B. said:

timestamp 17:45 seems others think that it should be FAQd.

Then others are also bad at logic.

[Sception]

1 hour ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

@Sception is correct.

The language and logic are clear, there is no need for an FAQ.

There's no need for errata, but I've seen enough people getting this wrong that I do think there's need for an FAQ answer.  despite superficial similarities the ability is veru different from its previous version, and that's causing a lot of confusion.

[N.I.B.]

Also, Blood Knights can Riders of Ruin an enemy unit, how many times in a turn? Once in normal move, again on the charge. And once more, if they can pile in over enemy models?

[Sception]

by my understanding they don't even have to completely cross over the enemy models.  in the movement phase, move up until you barely overlap their bases, then move back the way you came until you're at least 3" away.  ror1.  in the charge phase roll a 4" charge, move forward until you barely overlap the bases, then backwards until you're just b2b.  ror2.  in the combat phase, pile in forwards 1/2 an inch so you ovetlap the bases  then backwards 1/2 an inch to exactly where you started.  ror3.

[TechnoVampire]

3 hours ago, Sception said:

by my understanding they don't even have to completely cross over the enemy models.  in the movement phase, move up until you barely overlap their bases, then move back the way you came until you're at least 3" away.  ror1.  in the charge phase roll a 4" charge, move forward until you barely overlap the bases, then backwards until you're just b2b.  ror2.  in the combat phase, pile in forwards 1/2 an inch so you ovetlap the bases  then backwards 1/2 an inch to exactly where you started.  ror3.

As much as the power gamer in me likes that the rule as written currently functions this way, I’m wondering if it also needs an FAQ for clarity, as I get the feeling this was not the intention… Also I don’t know the core rules well enough to say myself, but do they allow for piling in/ charging 1/2 inch over another model and then back again, and does that count as “passing across”?  
 

Edit: I just checked myself and yes it does: 

I feel it’s likely the ability will be changed to “normal move” in which case it will be pretty situational, and a lot worse than the old rule. 

Edited April 21, 2023 by TechnoVampire

[N.I.B.]

Yeah as it stands currently Blood Knights lost a lot of flexibility and movement with the loss of move out of combats and charge something (like some other unit to grab an objective) in the same turn. Riders of Ruin makes up for it somewhat as they at least are more lethal now against a single target. 

[JackStreicher]

So, the new healing is a little odd.

I‘ve heard people use it as the old one which is wrong.

Then people said 3 units they just have to be close to some hero. Meaning 2 units close to one hero and another unit close to a different hero could be picked. Imo that is also wrong.

The way I read it is:You pick one hero, if there are three units within range you can heal them, if there are less than 3 in range you can only heal those and the effect ends. Potentially losing healings for not surrounding one jero - which is quite a nerf in my opinion and supports the „crowd within a bubble“ game I despise.

 

different topic: WHY can’t Nagash be 700 points 😭😭

 

Army Faction: Soulblight Gravelords
    - Army Type: Vyrkos

LEADER

1 x Nagash (965)

1 x Vampire Lord (130)
    - General
    - Command Traits: Driven by Deathstench
    - Artefacts: Ulfenkarni Phylactery
    - Spells: Ghost-mist
    - Aspects of the Champion: Fuelled by Ghurish Rage

BATTLELINE

40 x Deadwalker Zombies (230)

20 x Deathrattle Skeletons (170)

20 x Deathrattle Skeletons (170)

OTHER

20 x Grave Guard (280)

TOTAL POINTS: (1945/2000)

Created with Warhammer Age of Sigmar: The App

Edited April 21, 2023 by JackStreicher

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

42 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

The way I read it is:You pick one hero, if there are three units within range you can heal them, if there are less than 3 in range you can only heal those and the effect ends. Potentially losing healings for not surrounding one jero - which is quite a nerf in my opinion and supports the „crowd within a bubble“ game I despise.

It does not say "In your hero phase, choose a hero. You can pick up to three units wholly within 12 that hero and heal 3 wounds allocated to them" or something like that, which is what you are describing.

It says "In your hero phase, you can pick up to three units wholly within 12 of a hero". I know you're a programmer, so if you wanted to put it into a sentence structure closer to standard logic it would be "In your hero phase, you can pick up to three units for which there exists a hero from which they are wholly within 12". Which, of course, does not need to be the same hero for every unit.

Take a look at all the units. Is a unit wholly within 12 of a hero? If yes, you get to pick it. If no, you don't. Do this up to three times. That's all there is to this rule. Everything else is baggage people have from the old version where you had heroes doing the healing. In this version, the heroes don't do anything. They just have to be nearby for a unit to be a valid target for healing.

[MotherGoose]

Yea its pretty clear in my opinion too, but it seems there's enough people questioning it that a simple FAQ question/answer would put it to rest.

Is tomorrow 2 weeks since our release? Could see an faq then.

Edited April 21, 2023 by MotherGoose

[TechnoVampire]

12 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

It does not say "In your hero phase, choose a hero. You can pick up to three units wholly within 12 that hero and heal 3 wounds allocated to them" or something like that, which is what you are describing.

It says "In your hero phase, you can pick up to three units wholly within 12 of a hero". I know you're a programmer, so if you wanted to put it into a sentence structure closer to standard logic it would be "In your hero phase, you can pick up to three units for which there exists a hero from which they are wholly within 12". Which, of course, does not need to be the same hero for every unit.

Take a look at all the units. Is a unit wholly within 12 of a hero? If yes, you get to pick it. If no, you don't. Do this up to three times. That's all there is to this rule. Everything else is baggage people have from the old version where you had heroes doing the healing. In this version, the heroes don't do anything. They just have to be nearby for a unit to be a valid target for healing.

This is how I read it also. 

[JackStreicher]

3 hours ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

In your hero phase, you can pick up to three units wholly within 12 of a her

Might be the language barrier, but wouldn‘t this sentence need „any“ instead of „a“, since „a hero“ is specific? 
I‘ll ask in my Group how the german translators interpreted it.

thx for the reply!

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

1 minute ago, JackStreicher said:

Might be the language barrier, but wouldn‘t this sentence need „any“ instead of „a“, since „a hero“ is specific? 
I‘ll ask in my Group how the german translators interpreted it.

thx for the reply!

It would not need "any" but that would make it even more clear.

You can try to get more clarity on the restrictions of the ability by asking yourself: What does the rule tell me to check before I pick a unit?

The answer is: Is it within 12 of a hero?

It does not tell you to check "Is it within 12 of the same hero as the other guys you want to heal?"

Another potential way to approach it is asking yourself which units would be ineligible to be picked. It would have to be "Units not within 12 of a hero." The negation of this is "Units within 12 of at least one hero." So those are the units that are valid targets. Notice that the criterion for ineligible targets does not specify any particular hero, and that carries over through negation: The positive criterion also does not specify any particular hero.

[Mikosan]

The rule says to pick 3 units within 12" of a hero, not choose a hero and pick 3 units within 12".   The rule would be absolute trash if it had to be the same hero, how often would you be able to fit 3 blobs of summonable within 12" of a foot hero? 

[JackStreicher]

8 hours ago, Mikosan said:

The rule says to pick 3 units within 12" of a hero, not choose a hero and pick 3 units within 12".   The rule would be absolute trash if it had to be the same hero, how often would you be able to fit 3 blobs of summonable within 12" of a foot hero? 

Correct. But you never know if GW messed it up.
So we've had a lengthy discussion about it. A - is prolematik (esp. after translation in this case)
To visualize the issue:

It's an translation issue since "a" is translated to "one" in my language. If there was more context it could also mean "one of many / one of several".  "Any" however is unabiguous and would be perfectly clear in the context of a translation. Neil's method of reversing the conidtion makes it perfectly clear as well.

 

Edit: The Tanslated Version is crystal clear: "wholly within 12" of one or more SBGL hero/Heroes"

Edited April 21, 2023 by JackStreicher
I am too stupid to write crystal correctly...

[Mikosan]

So question for the folks that maybe have a few games under their belt:

How do you find the strength of the healing and recycling of units?  All of my previous experience in Sigmar is elite punchy armies that don't heal or anything like Soulblights reliance on cheap hordes that can stand back up.  Does the multiple ways of healing hold up to some of the nasty damage that exists or should I expect to get wiped and bring back half strength units?  How big a deal is battle shock for things like wolves, zombies, and skelly boys?  

For reference, I am painting up a Vyrkos army so lots of dire wolves, zombies, and a 30 block of deathrattle skeletons, any tips for keeping the units from being wiped out?  Plan is to use wolves to pin, fell bats to screen, skellys to hold center objectives, zombies midfield to eat charges and deal mortals back.  Not sure my list will do much damage though, so I guess is that actually a viable way to win some games?

[JackStreicher]

27 minutes ago, Mikosan said:

So question for the folks that maybe have a few games under their belt:

How do you find the strength of the healing and recycling of units?  All of my previous experience in Sigmar is elite punchy armies that don't heal or anything like Soulblights reliance on cheap hordes that can stand back up.  Does the multiple ways of healing hold up to some of the nasty damage that exists or should I expect to get wiped and bring back half strength units?  How big a deal is battle shock for things like wolves, zombies, and skelly boys?  

For reference, I am painting up a Vyrkos army so lots of dire wolves, zombies, and a 30 block of deathrattle skeletons, any tips for keeping the units from being wiped out?  Plan is to use wolves to pin, fell bats to screen, skellys to hold center objectives, zombies midfield to eat charges and deal mortals back.  Not sure my list will do much damage though, so I guess is that actually a viable way to win some games?

In my experience units evaporate in an instant (but that's my local meta). However it's nice if a single model survives and keeps blocking the enemy for another turn!
Prepare to bring back half strength units.

[MotherGoose]

In my experience the healing is sort of similar to before and the bringing back half strength units is still as good as it ever was - easier to do in general now and can be game changing if you're clever with grave placement.

[Sception]

healing depends on the category.

big heroes with hunger - neferata, mannfred, vhordrai, vlozd; to a lesser extent lauka, vengo, & radubeast.  these heroes are tough enough to take a hit & keep fighting, and when they do the hunger provides a significant heal, though the timing can be tricky.

small heroes & units with hunger - sometimes useful but you'll often lose whole models at a time when these units take attacks, and the hunger can't fix that.

summonable healing - these units are fragile & tend to collapse when attacked, so healing is typically only useful when units take chip damage.  which does happen, so not worthless, but not a big deal.  main exception is skeletons - they won't stand up to a real hammer, but with their extra healing they can grind it out with other tar pits & anvils.

summonable recursion - unlike summonable healing, which is a bit niche, the recursion of half units via endless legions, gorslav, or nagash is a big deal.  free units to block charges, contest objectives, threaten a few mortal wounds via black knight charges or zombie corose explosions, or even threaten some actual damage if bringing back 10 to 15 grave guard, that's all a big deal, and though i could be wrong i think summonable recursion will be a core part of the gravelord battle strategy in this book.