AoS 3.0 - Gloomspite GItz Discussion

[gnaleinad]

I see many people not taking Loonboss on foot in their list. I understand that a list focusing on Squig Herd will not see much use for command ability but those with Boingrot in their list ought to consider testing out game with Loonboss.

At 85 points plus Galletian Champion, their All-Out Attack can help make Boingrot or Squig Hopper the best unit in Gloomspite.

Together with Squigboss, Gobbapalooza, Moonface Mommet and Sneaky Snufflers the damage output is higher than Squig Herd by alot. 

 

Imagine a unit of 5 Boingrot charge a unit of 5 Chosen, lets estimated the total average damage...

On Charge
5x 4+ mortal wound = 2 damage average

Rider Attacking (Squigboss Yellow Lurka, Loonboss all-out attack, Gobbapalooza Nasty Poison, Moonface Mommet)

11x 3+ to hit, 3+to wound, 6s to wound additional mortal wound, rend -4, damage 2 = 10 damage average

(If Sneaky Snufflers Looncap Shrooms rolled 6+)

16x 3+ to hit, 3+to wound, 6s to wound additional mortal wound, rend -4, damage 2 = 16 damage average

Squig Attacking (Squigboss Yellow Lurka, Loonboss all-out attack, Gobbapalooza Nasty Poison, Moonface Mommet)

15x 3+ to hit, 3+to wound, 6s to hit & wound additional mortal wound, rend -3, damage 1 = 9 damage average

(If Sneaky Snufflers or Jaws of Mork)

20x 3+ to hit, 3+to wound, 6s to hit & wound additional mortal wound, rend -3, damage 1 = 12 damage average

 

The total average damage is about 21 wounds against Chosen, who only have 15 wounds. 

If Chosen had Mystic Shield or All-Out Defense, about 18 wounds. 

If Chosen had All-Out Defense and Mystic Shield, about 16 wounds. 

 

A unit of un-reinforced Squig Herd (with Squigboss Yellow Lurka, Gobbapalooza Nasty Poison, Moonface Mommet) will do a total average of 12 wounds against Chosen.

If Chosen had Mystic Shield or All-Out Defense, about 10 wounds.

If Chosen had All-Out Defense and Mystic Shield, about 9 wounds.

 

I will not deny that double Squigboss + 36 Squig Herd Alpha strike is very effective (hero phase min 12" max 22" move), getting addition buff is hard and will require hand of gork or that endless spell to move wizard. I rather put extra rend then ward save on those Squig because I prefer max damage and then use the fleeing 9" mortal wound to kill his nearby characters.

 

After playing many games mixing Troggoths, Spiders, Squigs and Grots.. King Gitz with Clammy Hand edge out over Jaws of Mork & Clammy Hand, especially after your opponent double turn in either round 2 or 3. 

To improve the chance to bring back that one unit on a 4+ to 93.75% or two important units at 66%, makes a hell of a different. 

King Gitz with Clammy Hand allows us to play aggressively and trade units with your opponent and win by the war of attrition.

[gnaleinad]

On 3/26/2023 at 11:22 PM, spenson said:

I've played the army five times, training against other teammates for a big tournament and I'm expecting a lot of nerfs in the battlescroll next month.

The list I was playing:

Allegiance: Gloomspite Gitz
- Gittish Horde: Jaws of Mork
- Grand Strategy: Chasing the Moon
- Triumphs: Indomitable

LEADERS
Squigboss with Gnasha-squig (80)*
- General
- Command Trait: The Clammy Hand
- Artefact: Gryph-feather Charm
- Aspect of the Champion: Fuelled by Ghurish Rage
Skragrott, The Loonking (160)*
- Lore of the Moonclans: Nikkit!Nikkit!
Squigboss with Gnasha-squig (80)**
Webspinner Shaman (65)**
- Lore of the Spiderfang: Sneaky Distraction

UNITS
10 x Boingrot Bounderz (280)*
24 x Squig Herd (240)*
24 x Squig Herd (240)**
24 x Squig Herd (240)**
20 x Moonclan Stabbas (125)*
6 x Sneaky Snufflers (110)**

BEHEMOTHS
Mangler Squigs (260)**

ENDLESS SPELLS & INVOCATIONS
Scuttletide (85)

CORE BATTALIONS
*Battle Regiment
**Battle Regiment

TOTAL: 1965/2000 WOUNDS: 228
LEADERS: 4/6 BATTLELINES: 5 (3+) BEHEMOTHS: 1/4 ARTILLERY: 0/4
ARTEFACTS: 1/1 ENDLESS SPELLS & INVOCATIONS: 1/3 ALLIES: 0/400
REINFORCED UNITS: 4/4 DROPS: 2

The army is very fun to play but it's just way too powerful as it is right now.

Next week we'll try the army against SoB, it could be an ok counter to the army. We thought LRL could do good with Crippling Vertigo + Darkness of the Soul as it makes 2 units basically unable to move at all but even that wasn't enough.

Wow. Does having two drops helps? Was that LRL similar to the one drop net list?

I have tried Manglers in my list and found that even with all the buff I can give, their output cannot be compared to Boingrot.

Have you tried Tunnel Master with Moonface Mommet? 

I recommend for you to try a game without that Mangler, Scuttletide and Webspinner Shaman, and replace them with a Loonboss, Gobbapalooz, Fungoid Shaman and Malevolent Moon. 

 

I lost against the LRL 1 drop net list with a freaking Soulsnare Shackles, Rune of Petrification and Umbral Spellportal in the Battleplan POSITION OVER POWER. 

Going first, Teclis casted two spells Umbral Spellportal, Storm of Searing White Light thru the portal. There was very little place to hide from this spell in this map. 
The Storm of Searing White Light killed a Squigboss and wounding many of my units, with my Loonboss and the last Squigboss on 1 wound each. 

His Warden casted Soulsnare Shackles, the Cathallar cast Rune of Petrification and the Calligrave casted Speed of Hysh on the Windchargers. Next he shot my Squig Herd and Boingrot with Powered up Sentinels, the Windchargers flew 28" to the side of my Skragrott, shot killed him and charged and killed my last Squigboss who had Clammy Hand. In the returning melee the Windchargers were destroyed but the damage was done, I lost 3 very important heroes before my turn. 

In my turn, I only manage to dispell the Spellportal and so I went for vp and tactics. So there was nothing much I can do as I cannot charge his main army. And then I had a double turn and I managed to dispell the Soulsnare Shackles, and I moved in for the kill. It was a big mistake as I should had also tried to dispell his Rune of Petrification as well. But I went for Hand of Gork and Squig Lure on my Squig Herd and failed my 9" charge later. Only my Boingrot went in with an awesome 12" charge, taking out his Wards and damaging his Sentinels.

He had a double turn after that, and first it was Umbral Spellportal, Storm of Searing White Light, Transporting Vortex the Sentinels and Protection of Teclis. 
I managed to block his Soulsnare Shackles with my Gobbapalooza but that Transporting Vortex spell costed me the game eventually. 

Next in turn his double turn 3, he did Storm of Searing White Light, Living Fissure, Transporting Vortex another Sentinels and Protection of Teclis. All my character were dead by that, and that Rune of Petrification was super damaging to my Squig Herd. Luckily he failed Soulsnare Shackles and my Gobbapalooza unbinded both his Sentinels power up spells. 

In my turn 3, my MVP Gobbapalooza dispelled Spellportal and Rune of Petrification. 

I double turn in turn 4 & went first in turn 5, but it was just brutal combat and my army taking a lot of damage from shooting and spells. 

Killing Teclis in turn 4 was the highlight of the match. 

I lost the game 16 to 19 point, and I would had drew the game if I killed his last hero as his grand strategy was The Day is Ours, that is to have more Galletian Hero than your opponent at the end of the game.

We both agree that POSITION OVER POWER was the hardest to play against LRL.

Btw I am also a LRL player. I kinda taught my friend what to do during the game also hahaha.

 

Basically I believe your list would had no chance against the one drop Teclis list with Soulsnare Shackles, Rune of Petrification and Umbral Spellportal. Especially if the same thing was done with Windchargers and killing your Skragrott before your turn. 

And there is a high chance that a focus fire of 40 shots on your Mangler will kill it, dishing even more damage to your own forces before your turn. 

There is just no where Skragrott can hide from a 28" move and 12" shooting that ignore ward saves. The board is only 44" x 60" now. 
Even if your 4 wounds heroes survives the first Storm of Searing White Light, he just have to get rid of your remaining spider wizard and it is game over. If you cannot remove the Soulsnare Shackles there is no way to win.

A melee armies that cannot charge? What will be the use of the Squigboss hero phase move? 

With most, if not all, of your Heroes dead by turn two, even if you push for objective and tactics, the amount of spell + shooting damage is no joke, plus it is possible to recast the Rune of Petrification on an objective to destroy your army. Teclis can also teleport his units anywhere. 

At least in my game I had a Gobbapalooza that can be replaced by King's Gitz at the Loonshrine and it was my MVP unit. Your list may really just be butchered.

Edited March 30, 2023 by gnaleinad

[spenson]

On 3/30/2023 at 8:06 AM, gnaleinad said:

Wow. Does having two drops helps? Was that LRL similar to the one drop net list?

I have tried Manglers in my list and found that even with all the buff I can give, their output cannot be compared to Boingrot.

Have you tried Tunnel Master with Moonface Mommet? 

I recommend for you to try a game without that Mangler, Scuttletide and Webspinner Shaman, and replace them with a Loonboss, Gobbapalooz, Fungoid Shaman and Malevolent Moon. 

 

I lost against the LRL 1 drop net list with a freaking Soulsnare Shackles, Rune of Petrification and Umbral Spellportal in the Battleplan POSITION OVER POWER. 

Going first, Teclis casted two spells Umbral Spellportal, Storm of Searing White Light thru the portal. There was very little place to hide from this spell in this map. 
The Storm of Searing White Light killed a Squigboss and wounding many of my units, with my Loonboss and the last Squigboss on 1 wound each. 

His Warden casted Soulsnare Shackles, the Cathallar cast Rune of Petrification and the Calligrave casted Speed of Hysh on the Windchargers. Next he shot my Squig Herd and Boingrot with Powered up Sentinels, the Windchargers flew 28" to the side of my Skragrott, shot killed him and charged and killed my last Squigboss who had Clammy Hand. In the returning melee the Windchargers were destroyed but the damage was done, I lost 3 very important heroes before my turn. 

In my turn, I only manage to dispell the Spellportal and so I went for vp and tactics. So there was nothing much I can do as I cannot charge his main army. And then I had a double turn and I managed to dispell the Soulsnare Shackles, and I moved in for the kill. It was a big mistake as I should had also tried to dispell his Rune of Petrification as well. But I went for Hand of Gork and Squig Lure on my Squig Herd and failed my 9" charge later. Only my Boingrot went in with an awesome 12" charge, taking out his Wards and damaging his Sentinels.

He had a double turn after that, and first it was Umbral Spellportal, Storm of Searing White Light, Transporting Vortex the Sentinels and Protection of Teclis. 
I managed to block his Soulsnare Shackles with my Gobbapalooza but that Transporting Vortex spell costed me the game eventually. 

Next in turn his double turn 3, he did Storm of Searing White Light, Living Fissure, Transporting Vortex another Sentinels and Protection of Teclis. All my character were dead by that, and that Rune of Petrification was super damaging to my Squig Herd. Luckily he failed Soulsnare Shackles and my Gobbapalooza unbinded both his Sentinels power up spells. 

In my turn 3, my MVP Gobbapalooza dispelled Spellportal and Rune of Petrification. 

I double turn in turn 4 & went first in turn 5, but it was just brutal combat and my army taking a lot of damage from shooting and spells. 

Killing Teclis in turn 4 was the highlight of the match. 

I lost the game 16 to 19 point, and I would had drew the game if I killed his last hero as his grand strategy was The Day is Ours, that is to have more Galletian Hero than your opponent at the end of the game.

We both agree that POSITION OVER POWER was the hardest to play against LRL.

Btw I am also a LRL player. I kinda taught my friend what to do during the game also hahaha.

 

Basically I believe your list would had no chance against the one drop Teclis list with Soulsnare Shackles, Rune of Petrification and Umbral Spellportal. Especially if the same thing was done with Windchargers and killing your Skragrott before your turn. 

And there is a high chance that a focus fire of 40 shots on your Mangler will kill it, dishing even more damage to your own forces before your turn. 

There is just no where Skragrott can hide from a 28" move and 12" shooting that ignore ward saves. The board is only 44" x 60" now. 
Even if your 4 wounds heroes survives the first Storm of Searing White Light, he just have to get rid of your remaining spider wizard and it is game over. If you cannot remove the Soulsnare Shackles there is no way to win.

A melee armies that cannot charge? What will be the use of the Squigboss hero phase move? 

With most, if not all, of your Heroes dead by turn two, even if you push for objective and tactics, the amount of spell + shooting damage is no joke, plus it is possible to recast the Rune of Petrification on an objective to destroy your army. Teclis can also teleport his units anywhere. 

At least in my game I had a Gobbapalooza that can be replaced by King's Gitz at the Loonshrine and it was my MVP unit. Your list may really just be butchered.

This is very different from my experience. I was playing against one drop teclis with the following list:

Allegiance: Lumineth Realm-lords
- Great Nation: Helon
- Mortal Realm: Ghur
- Grand Strategy: Take What's Theirs
- Triumphs:

LEADERS
Archmage Teclis and Celennar, Spirit of Hysh (700)*
Scinari Cathallar (110)*
- Lore of Hysh: Speed of Hysh
Hurakan Windmage (120)*
- General
- Command Trait: Grand Windrider
- Artefact: Tuskhelm
- Lore of the Winds: Howling Gale
- Aspect of the Champion: Stubborn as a Rhinox

UNITS
5 x Hurakan Windchargers (130)*
5 x Hurakan Windchargers (130)*
5 x Hurakan Windchargers (130)*
20 x Vanari Auralan Sentinels (300)*
- Lore of Hysh: Speed of Hysh
20 x Vanari Auralan Sentinels (300)*
- Lore of Hysh: Speed of Hysh

ENDLESS SPELLS & INVOCATIONS
Umbral Spellportal (80)

CORE BATTALIONS
*Battle Regiment

TOTAL: 2000/2000 WOUNDS: 96

My friend is very experienced with the army and has won some tournaments with various lists.

I have a few points regarding what you just said.

I don't know the exact list your opponent played but I guess he didn't have a lot of models if almost 1200 points were invested in heroes and endless spells (probably 10 wardens, 20 sentinels and 2x5 windchargers?).

The first one is that storm of searing white light can only target visible units. You can usually hide at least one character behind the faction terrain or another piece of terrain depending on your table, probably a squigboss. The Storm only has 1/6 chance to kill a 4 wound hero, way less if they have the 5++ ward and Fuelled by Ghurish Rage. I don't see how you can possibly have your general killed on turn one when the only damage he can take is maybe one storm.

Then the shackles may be cast using deep thinker but you still have a decent chance to dispell it with a +1 (and maybe even a +2 if you have an arcane terrain). Then you have at least 33% chance to dispell it on your turn. With the army's mobility, the shackles can be dodged, they don't move and cover a specific area. Don't forget that squig herds can usually move 13+3d6 and then attempt a charge.

The rune is nice but you can dodge it on turn one if you know it's coming and then it honestly doesn't do much against gloomspite.

I absolutely use finest hour on skragrott specifically so that my opponent has to invest more strength if they want to kill him (4++ ward against the sentinels, -1 to hit from look out sir, +2 save from finest hour / all out defense). The windchargers alone may not kill it. Maybe he dies but then I get 2x5 windchargers for free and thus most of my opponent's ability to take objectives.

There are so many other things. Lumineth don't have the dps to deal with 230 wounds + revives. I don't say you're all wrong but most points can be covered and you probably could've played it better.

I played a few more games this week, won 12-8 against SoB on Realmstone cache because it's very hard to score early and then I won 20-0 against Morathi + 15 blood stalkers.

Edited April 1, 2023 by spenson

[DerZauberer]

Had an interessting discussion regarding Skragrott recently.

Right now hes costed at 160 points which, to be honest, is way to cheap. And while we had our post battle discussion, we tried to make up a more appropiate cost for Skragrott in which i shortly realized, that, Skragrott is just an incredible must have piece which i simply can not point right.

Mobile Moon Aura , good caster, every moonclan spell, absurd MW snipe spell, 2 free CP per round, moon manipulation. Each point is just so good and makes some unreliable mechanics reliable.

Due to Skragrott i allways manage to have the moonlight where i need it to be and his mortal wound spell and all moonclan spells makes him just such an allrounder. Adding free CP on top makes him just incredible.

I made a thought experiment and at 160 to 250 he would still be an auto include, at 260 - 300 points i would still think about including him. At 350 ill be more reserved - 400 would be too much? But maybe not? How do you price a piece which makes your whole faction more reliable, eliminating most random factors of your faction ability and identity?

What are your thoughts?

[DerZauberer]

3 hours ago, DerZauberer said:

Had an interessting discussion regarding Skragrott recently.

Right now hes costed at 160 points which, to be honest, is way to cheap. And while we had our post battle discussion, we tried to make up a more appropiate cost for Skragrott in which i shortly realized, that, Skragrott is just an incredible must have piece which i simply can not point right.

Mobile Moon Aura , good caster, every moonclan spell, absurd MW snipe spell, 2 free CP per round, moon manipulation. Each point is just so good and makes some unreliable mechanics reliable.

Due to Skragrott i allways manage to have the moonlight where i need it to be and his mortal wound spell and all moonclan spells makes him just such an allrounder. Adding free CP on top makes him just incredible.

I made a thought experiment and at 160 to 250 he would still be an auto include, at 260 - 300 points i would still think about including him. At 350 ill be more reserved - 400 would be too much? But maybe not? How do you price a piece which makes your whole faction more reliable, eliminating most random factors of your faction ability and identity?

What are your thoughts?

Huh, its 210 now. Still an auto include in my books.

[Ganigumo]

I thought about that previously as well. The problem with pointing skragrott is that he offers unique tools we can't get anywhere else.
You either pay the tax to get the tools, or you don't get them. I agree he could be as high as the 300's and still show up in lots of lists.

imo the overall battlescroll hits us super hard, definitely the hardest nerf we've seen in a long time, and I'm not sure if it was entirely justified. Also squig herd were barely touched, since they couldn't rally and only went up 10 points, despite being the worst offender. The rally change really ruins the incentives in the book, it encourages rallying quality wounds over quantity ones, which means a big shift away from hoppers (who are probably dead), and grots (which didn't seem out of line) into bounderz, who can play similarly to hoppers with a better save and hit harder.

[Lord Krungharr]

I agree, GW really missed the boat with the recent Battlescroll, and the Squigherd shoulda been Errata'd to change the 2+ MW battleshock thing to 4+, and the MW mushroom buff to on wound rolls not hit rolls.

[Lord Krungharr]

On 3/28/2023 at 2:25 PM, W1tchhunter said:

Is there not a functional list that features all the troggoths 😛 like how would this fair?

 

 - Army Faction: Gloomspite Gitz
     - Subfaction: Glogg's Megamob
     - Grand Strategy: Chasing the Moon
     - Triumph: Indomitable
LEADERS
Dankhold Troggboss (200)
     - Artefacts of Power: Speaky-skull Fetish
Dankhold Troggboss (200)*
     - General
     - Command Traits: Loonskin
     - Artefacts of Power: Glowy Howzit
Dankhold Troggboss (200)**
     - Artefacts of Power: Pet Gribbly
BATTLELINE
Fellwater Troggoths (320)
Fellwater Troggoths (160)
Rockgut Troggoths (320)
Rockgut Troggoths (160)
OTHER
Dankhold Troggoths (180)*
Dankhold Troggoths (180)**
TERRAIN
1 x Bad Moon Loonshrine (0)
CORE BATTALIONS
*Troggherd Heavies
**Troggherd Heavies
TOTAL POINTS: 1920/2000

Bless you!  I am wanting to try out my Troggs next week (nothing painted yet).  Mine has just one Boss and one Danky, but 2 Fungoids and Skragrott...though with the newest Battlescroll I think I'll only be able to fit in the Marshcrawla ally instead of some Brutes as well.  I've been hammered horribly by Squiggly armies a couple times lately, so eager to see what the Troggs can do (my buddy's Rockguts were super tanky though).  The higher resilience seems promising, and they can certainly put out the damage.  I have good feelings about them, and I'm trying to figure out what to sell off to be able to keep them (big tax bill hurt my wallet).  Still trying to sell my Sylvaneth, all old metal tree guys.  

[spenson]

Just back home from my first tournaments with my squig list. It was a team tournament with some of the best teams in my country. I went 15/5, 20/0, 18/2 and 20/0 (unfortunately we had a bye). 

This was pre battlescroll but that wouldn't change anything, the army is just way too strong at the moment. As long as one squigboss manages to survive until my turn 1, most armies can't recover. Other teams brought different lists such as 2x30 hoppers but the list is now way weaker with the changes to rally.

Of course I wasn't put in one of the very unfavorable match(ups of the army (e.g. Thanquol, SCE with 3 vexillors + a celestant prime + the comet, StD in 1 drop with 2x6 varanguards, etc.) because the goal of the list if to score minimum 18 points each game. This means that while I can allow some battle tactics for my opponent, they must basically not score any objective of the whole game.

I think the army has a warscroll issue, not a costing issue. Skragrott for example simply does way too many things way too well. The herds have so many things going for them, they really need to nerf at least one aspect of the unit. I didn't bring a Marshcrawla Sloggoth but it would have honestly been a bit overkill in most cases.

The behemoth version of the mangler was a bit disappointing, I think I'll remove it from the list. Not having the 'totem' keyword limits how far you can send it when that's exactly what it's supposed to do.

Finale sidenote, a 'Damned' terrain is the best friend of your squig herds. If I won the priority roll and there was one in a deployment zone I always tried to get it and put as many of my squig herds units in range of it. Getting +1 to hit is nice but having 66% chance to trigger a battleshock test even if your opponent doesn't kill any of your herds is strong.

Edited April 10, 2023 by spenson

[Vasshpit]

2 hours ago, spenson said:

The herds have so many things going for them, they really need to nerf at least one aspect of the unit.

I find it so odd that herds have two wounds each on a single smaller model compared to hoppers who are larger and are a two model unit with a squig and rider. I don't know if that would be too drastic a change but it's just odd to me. 

[Ganigumo]

3 hours ago, spenson said:

Just back home from my first tournaments with my squig list. It was a team tournament with some of the best teams in my country. I went 15/5, 20/0, 18/2 and 20/0 (unfortunately we had a bye). 

This was pre battlescroll but that wouldn't change anything, the army is just way too strong at the moment. As long as one squigboss manages to survive until my turn 1, most armies can't recover. Other teams brought different lists such as 2x30 hoppers but the list is now way weaker with the changes to rally.

Of course I wasn't put in one of the very unfavorable match(ups of the army (e.g. Thanquol, SCE with 3 vexillors + a celestant prime + the comet, StD in 1 drop with 2x6 varanguards, etc.) because the goal of the list if to score minimum 18 points each game. This means that while I can allow some battle tactics for my opponent, they must basically not score any objective of the whole game.

I think the army has a warscroll issue, not a costing issue. Skragrott for example simply does way too many things way too well. The herds have so many things going for them, they really need to nerf at least one aspect of the unit. I didn't bring a Marshcrawla Sloggoth but it would have honestly been a bit overkill in most cases.

The behemoth version of the mangler was a bit disappointing, I think I'll remove it from the list. Not having the 'totem' keyword limits how far you can send it when that's exactly what it's supposed to do.

Finale sidenote, a 'Damned' terrain is the best friend of your squig herds. If I won the priority roll and there was one in a deployment zone I always tried to get it and put as many of my squig herds units in range of it. Getting +1 to hit is nice but having 66% chance to trigger a battleshock test even if your opponent doesn't kill any of your herds is strong.

I was listening to Coach's video with Irongutsman and I thought he put it pretty well, something along the lines of: The old book had a pretty steady tempo, and could play the long game, and even win fights despite the bad rules, they just struggled to score points while doing it. The new book fixed the scoring issue, but also buffed the damage hugely to frontload it, so now we've got an army with a strong start that can also play the long game, which makes it very tough to deal with.

[Ganigumo]

Anybody have any experience with Kings Gitz? I've got an event in a couple weeks and I've decided to take my gitz (I'm resisting the urge to bring my KB) but I'm still trying to figure out what want to play. I'm currently eyeing Kings Gitz, but I think it really needs clammy hand to get the most out of it. I was thinking of running a bunch of MSU Bounderz and Fellwaters with it, maybe a fungoid general with chase da moon who can hang out around the shrine all game. 

[spenson]

6 minutes ago, Ganigumo said:

I was listening to Coach's video with Irongutsman and I thought he put it pretty well, something along the lines of: The old book had a pretty steady tempo, and could play the long game, and even win fights despite the bad rules, they just struggled to score points while doing it. The new book fixed the scoring issue, but also buffed the damage hugely to frontload it, so now we've got an army with a strong start that can also play the long game, which makes it very tough to deal with.

Also the army handles an enemy double turn surprisingly well. I got double turn T2-T3 by Idoneth and T1-T2 by IJ but still got a comfortable win.

[spenson]

Just now, Ganigumo said:

Anybody have any experience with Kings Gitz? I've got an event in a couple weeks and I've decided to take my gitz (I'm resisting the urge to bring my KB) but I'm still trying to figure out what want to play. I'm currently eyeing Kings Gitz, but I think it really needs clammy hand to get the most out of it. I was thinking of running a bunch of MSU Bounderz and Fellwaters with it, maybe a fungoid general with chase da moon who can hang out around the shrine all game. 

If you have a mixed army then King's Gitz is the best. Clammy Hands is the best command trait of the army, I've never seen anyone take something else.

If you have a lot of squigs then Jaws of Mork is way stronger. You won't have to use your terrain a lot if all the enemies are dead (I've tabled two IJ players turn 3). I think I've used the terrain ability maybe thrice in 4 games.

The only "weakness" of the army (and I'm using some heavy quotes here) is that we can reinforce units only 4 times. It's essential to reinforce all the main units at least once to have a good lethality and it synergises with the terrain. I'd drop the battle regiments in a heartbeat to take more reinforcements if they were an enhancement.

[Ganigumo]

3 minutes ago, spenson said:

If you have a mixed army then King's Gitz is the best. Clammy Hands is the best command trait of the army, I've never seen anyone take something else.

If you have a lot of squigs then Jaws of Mork is way stronger. You won't have to use your terrain a lot if all the enemies are dead (I've tabled two IJ players turn 3). I think I've used the terrain ability maybe thrice in 4 games.

The only "weakness" of the army (and I'm using some heavy quotes here) is that we can reinforce units only 4 times. It's essential to reinforce all the main units at least once to have a good lethality and it synergises with the terrain. I'd drop the battle regiments in a heartbeat to take more reinforcements if they were an enhancement.

I think theres a strong argument for a troggoth general to make chasing da moon easier to complete, since with glowy howzit he can be very durable, plus loonskin is a pretty solid command trait.
Also I ran the math on MSU bounderz, and was shocked at their output, its actually insane.

This doesn't factor in the mortals on the charge and there are a ton of other options available for buffs that you can stack on top. For a 140 point unit this seems nuts to me, the only challenge is keeping a loonboss around to issue all out attack, but there are a few tricks available to help with that. It gets even wilder in Jaws of Mork though, which might be the better build.

[Lord Krungharr]

Yeah, the Squigherd needs a total rewrite for fairness' sake.  The Bounderz are also absurdly good, probably equally good.  One unit of 10 wiped out stuff in my StD army turn after turn after turn.  The Squigherd would have done so had they not failed a 5" charge turn 1.  

 

I'm trying out the Trogg Megamob this weekend one way or another.  I think vs Ironjawz but we'll see who can make it to the FLGS.  

[Ganigumo]

I did manage to get a game in last night as I'm trying to get unrusty, havent played too much in the past few months, unfortunately my opponent ended up conceding at the bottom of t1 when my 10 bounderz nearly killed his archaon (I think he had 1-2 wounds left?) and he had rolled using archaon's ability so we knew I was getting a double.
I was playing this:
 

Quote

Allegiance: Gloomspite Gitz
- Gittish Horde: King's Gitz
- Grand Strategy: Chasing the Moon
- Triumphs:

Leaders
Skragrott, The Loonking (160)*
Loonboss (85)**
- General
Fungoid Cave-Shaman (90)*
- Aspect of the Champion: Tunnel Master
Squigboss with Gnasha-squig (80)*

Battleline
10 x Boingrot Bounderz (280)**
- Reinforced x 1
5 x Boingrot Bounderz (140)**
5 x Boingrot Bounderz (140)**
24 x Squig Herd (240)*
- Reinforced x 1

Units
3 x Fellwater Troggoths (160)
3 x Fellwater Troggoths (160)
6 x Sneaky Snufflers (110)
5 x Gobbapalooza (145)

Endless Spells & Invocations
Malevolent Moon (80)

Core Battalions
*Warlord
**Vanguard

Total: 1870 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 2 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 149
Drops: 12
 

It felt a bit wierd using stuff as expensive as bounderz and fellwaters as screens, but with Kings Gitz it kind of works (although I had to roll all 4 dice that turn to get anything back).
I took the fellwaters hoping to use the vomit, then realized the nonbo with squig stuff since you want to move fast and be aggressive, but the vomit is better as a castle/counterpunch tool. This list would have probably been better served with rockguts, although I'm a bit curious to try out fellwaters with snarlfangs, since you can take the charge then pile in 6".
Squig herd didn't seem too insane to me, I threw them into Bloab and they only did like 5 damage total. They were unbuffed though, which is I think where the problem actually lies.
We can buff stack units to the moon, specifically squig units, but are we underpaying for that ability? and what should get taxed to correct it? The hopper build might have been killed by the rally change, you can still make them work, but bounderz are still great. Maybe they should take a crack at nerfing Jaws of Mork, since its the subfaction getting the crazy win rates but I'm not sure what they should change it to.

Also does anyone have much experience with spiderfang stuff this battletome? I keep looking at them hoping to find some secret sauce but come up with nothing. You really feel the lack of hammers, and they can't stack buffs as well as the moonclan stuff, nor do your units take the buffs as well. I think they have the tools to play a control game between stuff like scuttletide, flingers & ambushing arachnaroks, but you'll need a couple hammers at some point, and outside of nibla's ring once per game our magic isn't very powerful anymore. I'm even a bit skeptical of spider riders as screens now, especially in Kings Gitz, because its so easy to take stuff that costs more but actually has some output or utility since you can just get them back. 

[Lord Krungharr]

Man, that's lame of the opponent to concede so early.  I mean, it's not like it would have lasted that much longer

Yes, I would say the Gitz squig buff phenomenon is OP and deserves a heavy points tax, but really should just be rewritten warscrolls.  The herd should NOT be 2 wound models.  That's just sillyness.  They're on 25mm bases for Sigmar's sake!

[Ganigumo]

Doing some thinking today and I think I figured out whats wrong with spiderfang.

The book disincentivizes you from playing spiders.

There are a bunch of little factors contributing to this, but the biggest is a lack of a hammer outside supa nasty venom.

The new gitz book is all about buff stacking, and they have less buffs that affect or work well on spiderfang units than our other units. The buffs spiderfang do get are less consistent too.

Spiderfang are the only ones that get a damage buff from the moon, and their other buff is a spell, or an artefact that doesnt affect the user.

Because of the lack of other hammers you end up needing to dip into something else, but in order to make those pieces do enough work you're gonna need the support, which pulls you away from playing spiderfang.

You could look to something like a gargant or kragnos instead, but they miss out on a lot of the value in the army.

The book also pushes you to use stuff that can come back from the shrine, squigs, troggs, and moonclan can all get their best stuff, and their hammers back, but spiderfang can't. This is also a big part of what is disincentivizing dankhold troggoths and manglers right now

[Gitzdee]

Would be awesome if GW knows about a 2nd wave of Spiderfang that fixes some of those issues and we just dont know it yet. Hopium.

[spenson]

10 hours ago, Ganigumo said:

Doing some thinking today and I think I figured out whats wrong with spiderfang.

The book disincentivizes you from playing spiders.

There are a bunch of little factors contributing to this, but the biggest is a lack of a hammer outside supa nasty venom.

The new gitz book is all about buff stacking, and they have less buffs that affect or work well on spiderfang units than our other units. The buffs spiderfang do get are less consistent too.

Spiderfang are the only ones that get a damage buff from the moon, and their other buff is a spell, or an artefact that doesnt affect the user.

Because of the lack of other hammers you end up needing to dip into something else, but in order to make those pieces do enough work you're gonna need the support, which pulls you away from playing spiderfang.

You could look to something like a gargant or kragnos instead, but they miss out on a lot of the value in the army.

The book also pushes you to use stuff that can come back from the shrine, squigs, troggs, and moonclan can all get their best stuff, and their hammers back, but spiderfang can't. This is also a big part of what is disincentivizing dankhold troggoths and manglers right now

I absolutely agree with you.

Every time I start thinking about spiderfang lists I end up with something strictly inferior in every point to squigs and troggoths. Squigs actually deal way more MW than spiderfangs ever will at the moment, especially herds with a squigboss.

The mangler was disappointing because it's a unit that can be removed by the opponent. Meanwhile squig herds, boingrotz, hoppers, troggoths, etc. can be rallied (or equivalent) and then come back via the terrain. This applies the same way to arachnaroks. The rampage is also meh at best, only the one with the shaman on it seems to be worth it.

[Ganigumo]

I did play around with making a list that really leans into spiderfang, and this is what I came up with.

 

Spoiler

Allegiance: Gloomspite Gitz
- Gittish Horde: Grimscuttle
- Grand Strategy:
- Triumphs:

Leaders
Scuttleboss on Gigantic Spider (130)
- General
- Command Trait: Supa-nasty Venom
- Artefact: Headdress of Many Eyes
Webspinner Shaman on Arachnarok Spider (270)
- Artefact: Nibbla's 'Itty Ring
- Lore of the Spiderfang: Scuttling Terrors
Webspinner Shaman (65)
- Lore of the Spiderfang: Sneaky Distraction
- Aspect of the Champion: Tunnel Master
Skragrott, The Loonking (160)

Battleline
5 x Spider Riders (90)
5 x Spider Riders (90)
5 x Spider Riders (90)

Units
5 x Sporesplatta Fanatics (90)
6 x Sneaky Snufflers (110)

Behemoths
Arachnarok Spider with Flinger (270)
Skitterstrand Arachnarok (200)
Skitterstrand Arachnarok (200)

Endless Spells & Invocations
Scuttletide (85)
Shards of Valagharr (40)
Soulsnare Shackles (40)

Core Battalions
*Warlord

Additional Enhancements
Artefact

Total: 1930 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 0 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 125
Drops: 12
 

Its got a strong focus on board control with tools like scuttletide, shards and shackles. You can do things like casting scuttletide and putting a skitterstrand right behind it to block lanes out in a big way, but you're still lacking heavily in the damage department, and any army with better than average magic can shut down your tools in a big way.

[Smash]

I do like the arachnrok with flinger, as a spiserfang splash into my battle regiment. It provides some good utility and flexibility. Had som success vs krondspine tzeentch list, by actually keeping it away from my best stuff because of the movement slow. 

[Lord Krungharr]

I'm wondering if loads of Fellwater Troggoths might actually be a good army core, like 3x6 of them.  -1 to hit in melee, and with the Dankboss special AOA on them combined with the vomit effects, almost all the enemy army could be suffering from -1 to saves (effectively making them rend-2) and not be able to improve their saves whilst drenched.  To be extra swampy about things the Troggoth Hag would be thematic and she's pretty good if pricy in points, but for sure get the Marshcrawla in there, maybe 2?  Or a Mirebrute to guard the Marshcrawla and toss out more commands, with 2 Fungoids perhaps for extra spells, and the Mork's Mushroom too.

[RocketPropelledGrenade]

39 minutes ago, Lord Krungharr said:

I'm wondering if loads of Fellwater Troggoths might actually be a good army core, like 3x6 of them.  -1 to hit in melee, and with the Dankboss special AOA on them combined with the vomit effects, almost all the enemy army could be suffering from -1 to saves (effectively making them rend-2) and not be able to improve their saves whilst drenched.  To be extra swampy about things the Troggoth Hag would be thematic and she's pretty good if pricy in points, but for sure get the Marshcrawla in there, maybe 2?  Or a Mirebrute to guard the Marshcrawla and toss out more commands, with 2 Fungoids perhaps for extra spells, and the Mork's Mushroom too.

You'd be looking at an awful lot of points for extremely limited objective capture and extreme vulnerability to getting focused down by hammers. 24 wounds in a unit is nice, but a 4+ save and no penalty on shooting hits makes them vulnerable to big spike damage. Give just those 18 models are going to be nearly half your army, you'll have a lot less in the way of screens, and the threat range on the troggoths is not enough to serious threaten a shooting castle. Throw in the other stuff you mention and I think it gets worse, not better, just because of lack of points for needed chaff and power projection.