AoS 3rd - Idoneth Deepkin discussion

[Chronos]

I'm trying to figure out the best list to flip the Tides. It's still such an amazing ability, but sadly you don't get the super-killy King. Instead I thought about using him as a buff/debuff piece, and with Flaming Weapon he still hits ok.

I think the best way to work it with a hard hitting and mobile force would be using no Namarti other than the Tidecaster. Also, unless I'm wrong, having Volty will unlock battleline for the Eels. This list hinges on that so if I'm wrong, well...

Best I can come up with:
 

Quote

 

Ionrach

Tidecaster - General, Teachings of the Turscoll

Volty

King - Arcane Tome, Flaming Weapon, Voidchill Darkness

6x Morrsarr Eels

6x Morrsarr Eels

3x Ishlaen Eels

1x Allopex

1x Allopex

1995 points.

 

I've found it hard to include buffs from either Lotann, or either Eidolons in this list. As awesome as the Eidolon of the Sea is now, he can't get you the debuff in turn one, but is actually pretty good as a defensive option if you got charged turn one. Volty instead gives the +1 attack to the Morrsarr, which is a huge boost, either turn one if you rolled well or turn two. The Morrsarr sacrifice damage in turn one, but two units can still on average down a Mega at 3+ save. The extra attacks will boost damage on a unit of Morrsarr by over 7 on average.

If not getting the double into turn 2, damage can be lessened by having the King around, and he's already done his thing with the Tides, so if he gets focused down it's not a terrible loss. The -1, d3 damage attack from the Eels themselves is pretty decent, and the Ionrach ability will allow a unit of Eels to get out of combat if they are stuck in. Turn two, you could be doing upwards of 70-80 damage against a 3+ if everything gets in.

Ishlaen are there to basically get in the face of the enemy and try to reduce any incoming shooting turn 2.

I don't know if it's really worth it to lose the utility of say having the smashy King, Lotann, and the EotSea, but then you have to navigate to turn 3. Tough to say.

 

 

[Liquidsteel]

1 hour ago, Chronos said:

I'm trying to figure out the best list to flip the Tides. It's still such an amazing ability, but sadly you don't get the super-killy King. Instead I thought about using him as a buff/debuff piece, and with Flaming Weapon he still hits ok.

I think the best way to work it with a hard hitting and mobile force would be using no Namarti other than the Tidecaster. Also, unless I'm wrong, having Volty will unlock battleline for the Eels. This list hinges on that so if I'm wrong, well...

Best I can come up with:
 

I've found it hard to include buffs from either Lotann, or either Eidolons in this list. As awesome as the Eidolon of the Sea is now, he can't get you the debuff in turn one, but is actually pretty good as a defensive option if you got charged turn one. Volty instead gives the +1 attack to the Morrsarr, which is a huge boost, either turn one if you rolled well or turn two. The Morrsarr sacrifice damage in turn one, but two units can still on average down a Mega at 3+ save. The extra attacks will boost damage on a unit of Morrsarr by over 7 on average.

If not getting the double into turn 2, damage can be lessened by having the King around, and he's already done his thing with the Tides, so if he gets focused down it's not a terrible loss. The -1, d3 damage attack from the Eels themselves is pretty decent, and the Ionrach ability will allow a unit of Eels to get out of combat if they are stuck in. Turn two, you could be doing upwards of 70-80 damage against a 3+ if everything gets in.

Ishlaen are there to basically get in the face of the enemy and try to reduce any incoming shooting turn 2.

I don't know if it's really worth it to lose the utility of say having the smashy King, Lotann, and the EotSea, but then you have to navigate to turn 3. Tough to say.

 

 

Which debuff do you mean, the Tsunami of Terror -1 to saves? If so he can take Steed of Tides and teleport in to position, though I'll admit it's risky plonking him forward. I am on the fence about him also, but the combo, if it works, is amazing. Also putting units of 6 eels up to 10 bravery is really nice.

I, too, have been toying with 2 x 6 eels, however without Volturnos and the Ishlaen and taking an extra 2 x Allopexes and 1 x Reavers.

The list has Lotann instead and relies on turn 3 High Tide, however in the 3 games I've played I've tried to be aggressive, and suffered heavy losses turn 2 that would not have occurred had I had High Tide available.

[Chronos]

33 minutes ago, Liquidsteel said:

Which debuff do you mean, the Tsunami of Terror -1 to saves? If so he can take Steed of Tides and teleport in to position, though I'll admit it's risky plonking him forward. I am on the fence about him also, but the combo, if it works, is amazing. Also putting units of 6 eels up to 10 bravery is really nice.

I, too, have been toying with 2 x 6 eels, however without Volturnos and the Ishlaen and taking an extra 2 x Allopexes and 1 x Reavers.

The list has Lotann instead and relies on turn 3 High Tide, however in the 3 games I've played I've tried to be aggressive, and suffered heavy losses turn 2 that would not have occurred had I had High Tide available.

Yeah I was talking about Tsunami. I never thought about the teleport! That's a good play. I think with 12 wounds and a 3+/5+ the Eidolon could take a lot of damage and survive, and easily heal up afterwards.

I'm no expert, but just looking at the book, it seem to me you have to be somewhat careful if you are waiting until High Tide in turn three. That might not be so bad with more Sharks and a Turtle or something, but if you get stuck in with Eels and a King, it would be easy to get counter charged and do no damage back.

[Liquidsteel]

Yes precisely, I think you need to try and engineer the initial strike bottom of turn 2 so you have the safety net in to turn 3 with that sort of list, or at least not commit too large a portion  of your forces.

 

 

[Derek]

Does anyone think there might be play in a double eidolon list?

[That Guy]

3 hours ago, Derek said:

Does anyone think there might be play in a double eidolon list?

Hmmmm… You won’t be able to one drop, so you could 2 drop or do something else… honestly Lotann is just better than a Storm Eidolon. He does the same but also for mounts for much cheaper and is a great Isharrann character on top of that. I think the best you can do here is go thrall heavy in Dhom-Hain. Add a Tidecaster, get yourself ritual on first/2nd and 3rd turn and drop an extra boat. Hang with your storm around a blob of thralls and maybe even screen them. Both your Eidolons have multiple ways of healing while having a very beefy and tanky statline. They can sit on a 2+ save turn 1 and with mystic shield that can be even better. They have a stonehorn profile. You should include a lifeswarm as well, since you have the eidolon of the sea, you can threaten with insane amounts of healing a turn on any of the eidolons or bring back thralls. The tidecaster could metamorphosis to become a monster for a turn. You can’t spare points for stuff anymore. Something like this maybe:

Army Faction: Idoneth Deepkin
    - Army Subfaction: Dhom-Hain
    - Grand Strategy: Hold the Line
    - Triumphs: Indomitable

LEADER

Eidolon of Mathlann Aspect of the Storm (355)

Eidolon of Mathlann Aspect of the Sea (325)*
    - General
    - Command Traits: Endless Sea Storm
    - Spells: Steed of Tides

Isharann Tidecaster (150)*
    - Artefacts: Rune of the Surging Gloomtide
    - Spells: Counter-current

BATTLELINE

2 x Namarti Thralls (390)*

1 x Namarti Thralls (260)*

Namarti Thralls (130)*

ENDLESS SPELL

Emerald Lifeswarm (60)

TERRAIN

Gloomtide Shipwreck (0)

OTHER

1 x Akhelian Allopexes (330)*
    - Razorshell Harpoon Launcher, Barbed Hooks and Blades

CORE BATTALIONS:

*Battle Regiment

TOTAL POINTS: (2000/2000)

Edited March 17, 2022 by That Guy

[Derek]

I was thinking about double eidolon of the sea 

[GrimDork]

Haven’t picked up the tome yet, but was looking at the warscrolls on the app. Have they changed the way the King’s falchion works? Used to be -1 to save if you use the falchion, declared at start of combat phase, but I can’t see it in his rules. Makes the king more killy and one less thing to remember.

Or is it just missing from app?

[Kenk]

29 minutes ago, GrimDork said:

Haven’t picked up the tome yet, but was looking at the warscrolls on the app. Have they changed the way the King’s falchion works? Used to be -1 to save if you use the falchion, declared at start of combat phase, but I can’t see it in his rules. Makes the king more killy and one less thing to remember.

Or is it just missing from app?

He now always draws it, with no downside.

@Derek as for double Sea Eidolon, that’s a lot of points and one would effectively be doing nothing. One would attempt all of the nice spells and the other would be left using its weapons profiles only, which are seriously lacking!

[That Guy]

30 minutes ago, GrimDork said:

Haven’t picked up the tome yet, but was looking at the warscrolls on the app. Have they changed the way the King’s falchion works? Used to be -1 to save if you use the falchion, declared at start of combat phase, but I can’t see it in his rules. Makes the king more killy and one less thing to remember.

Or is it just missing from app?

It is changed, the app is correct. Now it’s just an extra weapon to swing with, without negatives.

4 hours ago, Derek said:

I was thinking about double eidolon of the sea 

Oh…, well uh… oh… You could just swap the storm with a sea i guess. You would have 2 big bubbles of 10 bravery which is solid. And if you absolutely want to cast every spell available to the tome, this could… pull it off. It would be the most magic heavy this army can get. I think 1 storm is a bit better, because you can combine them with buffing up your namarti for combat and battleshock together. You are lacking a thrallmaster here or a Lotann. It is nice to get that 2+ to hit and 2+ to wound. The storm is also slightly more tuned towards combat, the sea really likes to be a lover rather than a hater. Although he would be a hater if you count his debuff potential.

[PrimeElectrid]

The gameplay of Idoneth really appeal to me but I’m not a fan of the allopexes at all. Thought I’d try a modelling project to make lovecraftian/Cthulhu-esque/deep abyss horrors, but I’m really struggling to find a stand in for the allopex that has a similar ish silhouette. I’ve picked up one of the models to try and kitbash it but I would have thought this was an obvious project and yet it doesn’t seem like anyone else has tried any such conversions before.

Has anyone seen anything like this or have any suggestions for conversion fodder?

[Liquidsteel]

I'm gonna give the Leviadon a go tonight finally, will try something like this out.

Tidecaster could be 10 more Reavers or another hero, Artefact can be changed also.

Basic premise is turtle up and shoot early, looking to engage with the King's High Tide bottom of turn 2 in to turn 3. King and Turtle with rend -3 backed up by some Sharks should be able to deal with most things.

Shipwreck/s positioned to wall-off something scary like a Mawkrusha and present the Thralls only. I think perhaps 20 Reavers might be preferred so you can still have 40 shots hitting on 2's even with Unleash Hell.

- Army Faction: Idoneth Deepkin
     - Subfaction: Nautilar
LEADERS
Akhelian King (250)
     - General
     - Command Traits: Unstoppable Fury
     - Bladed Polearm and Falchion
     - Artefacts of Power: Arcane Tome
     - Spells: Flaming Weapon
Lotann (115)
Isharann Tidecaster (150)
     - Spells: Counter-current
BATTLELINE
1 x Akhelian Leviadon (500)
10 x Namarti Thralls (130)
10 x Namarti Reavers (170)
OTHER
2 x Akhelian Allopexes (330)
     - Razorshell Harpoon Launcher, Barbed Hooks and Blades
2 x Akhelian Allopexes (330)
     - Razorshell Harpoon Launcher, Barbed Hooks and Blades
TOTAL POINTS: 1975/2000
Created with Warhammer Age of Sigmar: The App

[Derek]

@That Guy   So this was all theoretical since my 2 eidolons are both sitting in their boxes unbuilt.   I do believe you’re right double sea eidolon wouldn’t be worth it.  My question becomes what do you use that possible -3 to save rolls on?  Since the best targets in say the stormcast book can just shrug it off with their spell ignore.  If they roll high enough on their dice roll anyways 

Edited March 17, 2022 by Derek

[DocKeule]

Double Sea I don't really find much use in. The IDK magic is not that great and you can only use the warscroll spells once per turn.

If you want (more) magic I would bring a Tidecaster and take the extra ritual. 

[That Guy]

4 hours ago, Derek said:

@That Guy   So this was all theoretical since my 2 eidolons are both sitting in their boxes unbuilt.   I do believe you’re right double sea eidolon wouldn’t be worth it.  My question becomes what do you use that possible -3 to save rolls on?  Since the best targets in say the stormcast book can just shrug it off with their spell ignore.  If they roll high enough on their dice roll anyways 

There will always be counters that shut down strong abilities. It’s healthy. In case of the stormcast, she can do it once per game, you can cast multiple turns. Targets like stonehorns, bastilladons, leviadons, kragnos(although he has an incredible shrug, if you get it off… you wipe him off the board.) usually monsters with incredible saves already. Deny them that build up and get your rends off. But honestly anything that can stack save roll buffs is a good target. Our army will never be dominant in magic our strongest is the sea eidolon who is somewhat solid paired with the command trait, but there’s many other armies who can literally dominate us in the magic phase. In your case def build both types of eidolons, you won’t regret. The storm still has a place. 

Edited March 17, 2022 by That Guy

[Sonnenspeer]

Would a team of Volturnos, King, Storm Eidolon and Turtle be a super alpha strike?

King declare High Tide: D3 Units fight first,

volti for additional attack (for all units the King gives High Tide) -> great fcor the turtle

Both +1 to hit , Eidolon for +1 to wound (unfortunately no Mount)

(+ I have all the models!! 😉)

Edited March 18, 2022 by Sonnenspeer

[Derek]

@Sonnenspeer give it a shot.  I think you’d be better holding till turn 2 so everyone can run and charge but it could work.  I’m working on a nautilar list with the triple turtles, the smashy king, a tidecaster and a shark most likely with the net launcher to help prevent pile in’s

[Derek]

Nobody in my local meta thinks that triple turtles are going to do much of anything and they wrote off the blender king so they’re in for a treat when i get everything on the board.   
 

for the king is the armor better or the potion for his artifact?  I like both what I don’t like is the mortals the king takes from the potion.  

[Sonnenspeer]

15 hours ago, Derek said:

like is the mortals the king takes from the potion.  

I took the armor as he is already killy enough

Does Unstoppable Fury mean you get +2 Attacks for every enemy unit in 3"? So if there are 3 enemy units you get +6 Attacks for every melee weapon? That would be crazy

[Liquidsteel]

52 minutes ago, Sonnenspeer said:

I took the armor as he is already killy enough

Does Unstoppable Fury mean you get +2 Attacks for every enemy unit in 3"? So if there are 3 enemy units you get +6 Attacks for every melee weapon? That would be crazy

Yes but only the Polearm and Falchion, artefact and traits don't apply to mounts.

[martinwolf]

3 hours ago, Liquidsteel said:

Yes but only the Polearm and Falchion, artefact and traits don't apply to mounts.

Yes, and only in High Tide.

[Derek]

@martinwolf yes it’s only In high tide but since you can pull off 3 combat phases of high tide for the bonus to trigger is it really that hard to feasibly kill whatever he hits?

[vinnyt]

Spoiler

t's TIIIIIIMEEEE! Back from vacation and time for the feesh to terrorize my friends! 

Nautilar Enclave

Akhelian King w/ polearm, unstoppable fury, voidchill darkness
Tidecaster with Rune of bonus boat and countercurrent
Lotann

Tortle with Ancient
20 Reavers
10 Thralls

2 sharks w/ harpoons
1 shark w/ harpoon

1980 points, GS is keep battleline alive, triumph is +1 wound

Spoiler

My opponent brought a new and improved annihilator themed list to reflect that raptors are now walking point bags.

Relictor with tome
Shooty boi with mirror shield?
Imperitant

2x3 grandhammers
1x3 shield annihilators
10 Judicators with the bows
5 judicators with the crossbows
5 Vindictors

3 aetherwings

Also 1980 points lmao. Pretty much everything is in hunters.

 

Spoiler

We roll up Feral Foray and here is the terrain!

This is gonna be a fairly even matchup, he's got a lot of chip mortal wounds with the judicators, annihilator drops, and the shooty guy whose name I forget. I also have way fewer models than I would like and he can dictate the tempo with his deepstrikes.

However, I have a shocking amount of shooting and speed so can probably get to where I need to go.

 

Spoiler

I deploy my single drop in a nice castle where all the auras are nice and tight. He deploys in the corner since he can pretty much go wherever he wants with translocate and deepstrike.

Ignore the boltstorm guys in the bottom right- they're actually deployed in the forest area.

 

Spoiler

I give him first turn.

We both fail to get command points and he ferocious advances stuff nobody cares about.

Mystic shield goes up on the xbow guys and he flings them in front of the reavers to shoot them before they shoot him.

Big bow guys puts 3 MW on the turtle and a smattering of wounds around my backfield. RUDE. Boltstorms shoot off a few more reavers.

Annihilators fail their 7+ rerollable charge (honestly wouldn't have been the end of the world since 12ish reavers unleashing hell is pretty darn spooky). But, them's the breaks and the turn ends with him scoring 4 points (BT, hold 1, hold 2)

Score is 0-4 SCE

 

Spoiler

Time to CRUNCH

Hero phase sees me fail to get a CP, but successfully riptide the annihilators for 1 MW. I rally back one reaver. BT is ferocious advance on my 3 characters.

I pull the ol' Deepkin switcheroo and bring the sharks around to help support the right flank and threaten a deep turn 2 charge while keeping them safe from grandhammers. I chuck down a boat to stop annihilators getting into my King (which is why the boat artifact is great).

Shooting isn't great but I kill 4.5/5 crossbow guys while the annihilators take no damage due to AoD. I didn't want to kill the last judicator since I needed him to cheese a cheeky reaver charge and also possibly get a free Broken Ranks w/ monster next turn.

Charging sees me get the tortle and reavers into combat. The reavers charge in to expand further out of my deployment zone and ensure that grandhammers can't come down and threaten my squishy backfield/stop me from threatening his objectives.

Tortle kills the 3 annihilators and the reavers do nothing. I also score 4 points and it's 4-4 going into turn 2.

I win priority but give it to him since there's nothing I really need to do right now. I need him to bring in more guys for me to kill.

 

Spoiler

 

He declares conquer on the back left objective and translocates 5 vindictors back there. I made a mistake not having 5 thralls camp there so that one's on me 

He brings down 3 grandhammers and the skybolt judicators after running the gryph hounds and aetherwings over to provide some measure of screen.

Shooting is brutal and all the reavers die.

He makes his 8" charge with the grandhammers into the turtle and does 6!! MW off the impact hits. That plus 2 MW for them coming in means the tort is a-hurtin. I stand and shoot with the shark but only do 2 wounds. Uh-oh. The remaining judicator charged the turtle first so I couldn't stand and shoot with him.

Combat comes and the grandhammers can't quite get it done as I save 5/6 4+ saves and the turtle lives with 2 wounds remaining! The turtle then immediately kills the grandhammers and dies to their explosion!!! RIP sweet tortle.

He scores 6 points (hold 1, hold 2, hold more, monster kill, battle tactic).

Score is 10-4 going into deepkin turn 2. 

 

Spoiler

 

Time for ZOOOOOOM.

I declare conquuer on my bottom right objective for easy points.

I cast mystic shield on the sharks and run the sharks and king up the board as fast as they can with the hopes of eating the unleash hell with a wounded shark. Thralls move onto the objective but don't feel like trying to fight the invictors since my armor butter and they're in cover.

No shooting.

The wounded shark fails the charge. The 2 man shark unit baaaarely makes the charge which means the king is gonna have to eat some standing and shooting. The king rolls a big money 11" though, so he makes it in and only a few judicators get to unleash hell on him. He takes 5 wounds from the unleash hell though. I then pop his ability so he gets to fight first, and then the sharks get to go first in the regular priority combat.

The King kills everything. By like a lot. I get 9 polearm attacks at 2/2/-3/3 and then other attacks too. He kills the relictor and the 10 man judicator squad not even breaking a sweat. The sharks then kill the aetherwings and gryph hounds, taking 3 MW from explosions. Oh also lotann charges and kills the last crossbow judicator (8 attacks at 3/3/-1/1 is preeeetty good)

End of the turn, I score 5 points (1, 2, more, battle tactic).

Score is 9-10 until I win priority for turn 3 and we call the game. I would have used the wounded shark to eat unleash hell from his big bow guy and then killed all his characters, leaving him with 5 vindictors on 1 objective and 3 grandhammers in the sky and me with characters who can get to any objective and burn them.

DEEPKIN WIN

Spoiler

Will it blend? YES.

Man, did I feel the lower model count. Every loss was real bad and I needed every last bit of output against my opponent.

This game is a bit of an unusual one in that I'm playing a much faster list than mine, and the amount of deepstriking meant I couldn't be too aggressive.

The Nautilar turtle is insane and just an absolute TRUCK. Chip MW will get it killed though, which is what happened here. Granted, it killed 2 full annihilator units on its own so it's definitely a staple for me.

Blender king is obvious MVP. Absolutely insane what he can do but you really gotta be careful about unleash hell. 7 wounds is NOT a lot and I was 1 wound away from being just super sad. He'll kill anything though so that's nice.

Reavers gonna reave. Not really sure how I could have done anything better with them. Something was gonna get shot and better them than the other stuff in my list. Output is good, but not great. I think 20 is around the sweet spot though, 30 is just kind of expensive and they die real fast, even with the defensive buffs.

Lotann and Thralls... kinda underwhelming. Thralls die as fast as reavers and can't shoot. They're also super slow compared to everything else and can't can open very well. I have a TON of shooting for 4+ish save things and thralls really only bring some light screening to the table. Lotann is amazing but just sort of slow. I'm still gonna use him though, since he makes the initial castle absolutely impregnable. His tide shenanigans was irrelevant this game and it's hard to see how I'm gonna abuse that mechanic much since games are super quick.

Sharks didn't really get a fair shake this match. They do shoot pretty well though, and that's the key.

Overall, this seems like a mobile shooty army that can fight rather than a mobile fighty army that can shoot. A great game that ended in a similar matter to many many deepkin games with the old book.

[Derek]

@vinnyt  that sounds like an outstanding showing for the deepkin.  I’m excited to get mine on the table this coming Wednesday against a big waagh list that I’m actually pretty terrified of from all the mortal wounds it can do.  
 

list is most likely going to be 3 turtles the blender king and a tidecaster but I’ve been thinking about maybe trying futhaen list with double turtles 3 sharks the blender king and a aspect of the sea eidolon and if points allow a tidecaster 

[vinnyt]

3 hours ago, Derek said:

@vinnyt  that sounds like an outstanding showing for the deepkin.  I’m excited to get mine on the table this coming Wednesday against a big waagh list that I’m actually pretty terrified of from all the mortal wounds it can do.  
 

list is most likely going to be 3 turtles the blender king and a tidecaster but I’ve been thinking about maybe trying futhaen list with double turtles 3 sharks the blender king and a aspect of the sea eidolon and if points allow a tidecaster 

The trip tort list is pretty fun, but may have some problems against big waagh that can reliably get a very high armor save and smash the poor torts in combat. Double torts is a list I've been thinking a lot about but can't really find a configuration I like where you don't give up a lot of utility for the 2 beasties.  Interested to see which list you end up going with! 

 

Let us know how the battle goes!