AoS 3 - Daughters of Khaine Discussion

[KrispyXIV]

Spoiler

Army Faction: Daughters of Khaine

 - Subfaction: Hagg Nar

 - Grand Strategy: Bloodthirsty Zealots

 - Triumph: Inspired

LEADERS

Hag Queen (110)

 - Artefacts of Power: Khainite Pendant

 - Prayers: Sacrament of Blood

High Gladiatrix (90)

The Shadow Queen (680)*

Slaughter Queen (130)*

 - General

 - Command Traits: Master of Magic

 - Artefacts of Power: Arcane Tome

 - Spells: Mindrazor

 - Prayers: Catechism of Murder

Morathi-Khaine (680)*

BATTLELINE

Witch Aelves (115)*

 - Sciansá and Bladed Buckler

Witch Aelves (115)*

 - Sciansá and Bladed Buckler

Witch Aelves (230)**

 - Paired Sciansá

OTHER

Blood Stalkers (360)**

Khinerai Heartrenders (95)**

ENDLESS SPELLS & INVOCATIONS

1 x Heart of Fury (45)

CORE BATTALIONS

 -  *Warlord

 -  **Hunters of the Heartlands

TOTAL POINTS: 1970/2000

Created with Warhammer Age of Sigmar: The App

So, play experiences.  I played the above (except for the Gladiatrix, who I just realized I forgot to put on the table!) into Nurgle today (2x Maggoth Lords, GUO, as many blightlords as fit in the difference) and just barely lost (by 1 point).  Which considering I succeeded on a whole 2 prayer rolls all game (and rolled 1's on the rest), and got a whole 2 mortals on my first 80 bow snek shots (serious statement), felt pretty good.  

The Heroic Action for +2 attacks, plus Mind Razor on the Slaughter Queen resulted in her running around punching way above her weight turns 3 to 5, and the support handouts for TSQ resulted in her being stabby as all get out.  Not quite so reliable as rerolls, but easy access to on demand exploding 6's was almost as good.  

I didn't actually get Heart of Fury out ever... but I'm not sure what fits in the hole that would be better.

I feel like its not as strong as the Zainthar Kai list I put together (that I assume will be pretty common - Morathi, Medusa, 2x 10 Blood Sisters, 10 Bloodstalkers, 2x Heartrenders, Blood Viper) but still was a lot of fun to run.  

[Chumphammer]

Two hobby projects I am working on atm.

1st is converted Morgwaeth and the SOS from her box set into a High Gladiatrix (as didnt wanna buy the box set or ebay prices. I have put some green stuff to make a band on the arm join also. WE will be used on 2nd project)



2nd is making my centerpiece cauldron of blood using 3d print, Cauldron kit and new avatar. THis is the start of it (body just resting atm for show. Updated with crew just for idea. Nothing greenstuffed on body yet)

Edited June 2, 2022 by Chumphammer

[Rebluff]

On 5/30/2022 at 3:18 PM, KrispyXIV said:

Agreed.  Its one of a bunch of little things that makes Morathi and Bow Snakes less efficient, as the most cost effective way to get them to be battle line is Zainthar Kai, which does nothing for them OTHER than make them Battle Line.  

 

Ironscales had completely replaced Medusa in Morathi+15Snakes list long before the book came out. The fact that Blood Sisters are now a significant improvement over, not only witch aelves and SoS, but also how Blood Sisters USED to be, there's no real reason to bother with a medusa in a Morathi list.

[Milano]

17 hours ago, Rebluff said:

Ironscales had completely replaced Medusa in Morathi+15Snakes list long before the book came out. The fact that Blood Sisters are now a significant improvement over, not only witch aelves and SoS, but also how Blood Sisters USED to be, there's no real reason to bother with a medusa in a Morathi list.

I still see a Medusa as a valuable part in a Morathi list. Why? Cause I like her having Mindrazor and Shadowstone. Having that +1 cast and often sticking around after Morathi is gone End Rd2 is great. Rough shooting choice for the opponent, eliminate Mindrazor first or focus on Morathi? 🤔Also the ability to buff snakes and an anti-horde range attack are very effective. 

[KrispyXIV]

3 hours ago, Milano said:

I still see a Medusa as a valuable part in a Morathi list. Why? Cause I like her having Mindrazor and Shadowstone. Having that +1 cast and often sticking around after Morathi is gone End Rd2 is great. Rough shooting choice for the opponent, eliminate Mindrazor first or focus on Morathi? 🤔Also the ability to buff snakes and an anti-horde range attack are very effective. 

Given the lack of opportunities I've had to actually make use of 4+ Rally (units are either engaged at start of turn, completely obliterated before I can get them out of combat, or not yet hurt), Master of Magic on top of all that really shifts the odds in favor of getting Mindrazor off - and its an insanely valuable force multiplier.

[Milano]

28 minutes ago, KrispyXIV said:

Given the lack of opportunities I've had to actually make use of 4+ Rally (units are either engaged at start of turn, completely obliterated before I can get them out of combat, or not yet hurt), Master of Magic on top of all that really shifts the odds in favor of getting Mindrazor off - and its an insanely valuable force multiplier.

Love that! Just changed my list accordingly 

[Rebluff]

7 hours ago, Milano said:

I still see a Medusa as a valuable part in a Morathi list. Why? Cause I like her having Mindrazor and Shadowstone. Having that +1 cast and often sticking around after Morathi is gone End Rd2 is great. Rough shooting choice for the opponent, eliminate Mindrazor first or focus on Morathi? 🤔Also the ability to buff snakes and an anti-horde range attack are very effective. 

And that's fine, but it's not really necessary and Morathi can also cast mindrazor. You're spending 130pts and your artefact for basically an additional 16% chance to get mindrazor. (The +1takes the odds from 42% to 58%. )

Or you can give your blood sisters run and charge and battleline for 15pts cheaper. And still have a relic.

[KrispyXIV]

Just now, Rebluff said:

And that's fine, but it's not really necessary and Morathi can also cast mindrazor. You're spending 130pts and your artefact for basically an additional 16% chance to get mindrazor. (The +1takes the odds from 42% to 58%. )

Or you can give your blood sisters run and charge and battleline for 15pts cheaper. And still have a relic.

42% total for Morathi to cast it, vs. ~83% for Medusa with Shadow Stone and Master of Magic, with a casting value that makes it at least somewhat resilient to typical unbinds.

Thats the difference between a somewhat reliable strategy vs. "Hey, Morathi cast Mindrazors this game!  That happens well under half the time!"

Seriously, casting it with Morathi is so unlikely its hard to justify even trying when she could use the spell to cast something more reliable that would still be extremely beneficial.

I might agree more if Mindrazors wasn't an absolutely massive boon every time it goes off, but its insanely powerful and being able to mitigate its huge unreliability to a very significant degree is very good.

[Rebluff]

2 minutes ago, KrispyXIV said:

42% total for Morathi to cast it, vs. ~83% for Medusa with Shadow Stone and Master of Magic, with a casting value that makes it at least somewhat resilient to typical unbinds.

Thats the difference between a somewhat reliable strategy vs. "Hey, Morathi cast Mindrazors this game!  That happens well under half the time!"

Seriously, casting it with Morathi is so unlikely its hard to justify even trying when she could use the spell to cast something more reliable that would still be extremely beneficial.

I might agree more if Mindrazors wasn't an absolutely massive boon every time it goes off, but its insanely powerful and being able to mitigate its huge unreliability to a very significant degree is very good.

In that case, you're now essentially dedicating TWO enhancements and 130pts to give one spell roughly 75% odds after unbinds. It's a good combo, but I don't think it's worth it in Morathi lists. The ironscale setup is guaranteed and requires 0 addons. It doesn't end up with the same kind of output but is cheaper and more consistent.

In non-Morathi lists, I think that type of Medusa is probably more or less mandatory if you're NOT taking Morathi though.

[KrispyXIV]

1 minute ago, Rebluff said:

In that case, you're now essentially dedicating TWO enhancements and 130pts to give one spell roughly 75% odds after unbinds. It's a good combo, but I don't think it's worth it in Morathi lists. The ironscale setup is guaranteed and requires 0 addons. It doesn't end up with the same kind of output but is cheaper and more consistent.

In non-Morathi lists, I think that type of Medusa is probably more or less mandatory if you're NOT taking Morathi though.

I mean, its the difference in costs between the Ironscale and the Medusa you're giving up - not the full value.

I feel like the Medusa is a pretty significant upgrade to the Ironscale for those points.  You lose the CA, but you gain its own unique support ability in Melusai Kin, spellcasting, a horde-breaker ranged attack, and most surprisingly a significant boost in combat ability.

The Medusa benefits more than anyone from Battle Fury - +6 attacks.  I dare someone to underestimate her late game, let her cast Mindrazor on herself and have her go in with 13+d6 attacks all buffed.

I had a Slaughter Queen with Tome and MoM doing that late game after Morathi had been downed, and it was unexpected and deadly.  A Medusa is like that but on super steroids.  An Ironscale can't come close.

[The World Tree]

The great thing about the book is that there are really good reasons for both choices.

The more I look at the book, the more I think they've done a phenomenal job with the internal balance. Units (except the foot slaughter queen and melee khinera) all have their reasons for use, as do the subfactions. Love it.

Edited June 3, 2022 by The World Tree

[Mutton]

8 hours ago, The World Tree said:

The great thing about the book is that there are really good reasons for both choices.

The more I look at the book, the more I think they've done a phenomenal job with the internal balance. Units (except the foot slaughter queen and melee khinera) all have their reasons for use, as do the subfactions. Love it.

I wonder if Lifetakers might have a use yet. I keep looking at their warscroll and if you're using Morathi, they'll have 16 attacks in the buff range. +1 charge. Potentially 2+/2+ -1 1. 50% chance to dip out of combat before being attacked back. In Hagg Nar or Khalibron they might be good for striking lone heroes or small objective camping units.

Heartrenders are good because of the free move after shooting, but they're never going to kill anything. Lifetakers might have a chance in the right build. I do wish they were a little cheaper though, they're so susceptible to getting blasted by a simple D3 mortals or handful of shooting attacks. If Lifetakers were 70 points, I think you could get some interesting things going and not feel bad about it (the points-to-wound ratio wouldn't be so horrible).

Edited June 3, 2022 by Mutton

[The World Tree]

1 hour ago, Mutton said:

I wonder if Lifetakers might have a use yet. I keep looking at their warscroll and if you're using Morathi, they'll have 16 attacks in the buff range. +1 charge. Potentially 2+/2+ -1 1. 50% chance to dip out of combat before being attacked back. In Hagg Nar or Khalibron they might be good for striking lone heroes or small objective camping units.

Heartrenders are good because of the free move after shooting, but they're never going to kill anything. Lifetakers might have a chance in the right build. I do wish they were a little cheaper though, they're so susceptible to getting blasted by a simple D3 mortals or handful of shooting attacks. If Lifetakers were 70 points, I think you could get some interesting things going and not feel bad about it (the points-to-wound ratio wouldn't be so horrible).

What I will say is that the scroll itself isn't bad. It's just that for 5 points more you get heartrenders who are guaranteed the extra move. Taking a unit of them is absolutely fine; they'll still do plenty.

[hurben]

On 6/2/2022 at 8:12 PM, KrispyXIV said:

Given the lack of opportunities I've had to actually make use of 4+ Rally (units are either engaged at start of turn, completely obliterated before I can get them out of combat, or not yet hurt), Master of Magic on top of all that really shifts the odds in favor of getting Mindrazor off - and its an insanely valuable force multiplier.

To me the 4+ rally is a really good defensive option against shooting lists. Otherwise, it's just a good option for some game situations but it's too good to not be played. 

By the way, I don't know if it will be FAQ in the next days/week but the rally is possible on every units. What about 20 reavers boosted by curse that you can rally each turn ^^

[KrispyXIV]

13 minutes ago, hurben said:

To me the 4+ rally is a really good defensive option against shooting lists. Otherwise, it's just a good option for some game situations but it's too good to not be played. 

By the way, I don't know if it will be FAQ in the next days/week but the rally is possible on every units. What about 20 reavers boosted by curse that you can rally each turn ^^

I mean, I assume that it will be errataed to not include allied units for the rally.  

If it isn't, are you sure you wouldn't prefer 30 Darkshards for your Curse exploitation vehicle?

[hurben]

7 minutes ago, KrispyXIV said:

If it isn't, are you sure you wouldn't prefer 30 Darkshards for your Curse exploitation vehicle?

Reavers can shoot at 26" and that's a really good option to not be out range turn 1 and they also have rend -1 and a basic 3+/3+

[KrispyXIV]

4 minutes ago, hurben said:

Reavers can shoot at 26" and that's a really good option to not be out range turn 1 and they also have rend -1 and a basic 3+/3+

4" of threat and ~2 average damage vs a 4+ save, vs a whole lot of extra survivability (10 wounds, hypothetically even better rally synergy) and model count for objectives.  Plus if you do land the curse, the damage swings back in favor of the darkshards hard.  

I think they're both valid options, but I personally think the darkshards would play better to the Rally interaction (in a world where it isn't errataed away) personally.  

Reavers are also way less likely to get legends-ed in the next 3 years, which is also a plus...

[Rebluff]

On 6/3/2022 at 1:27 PM, The World Tree said:

What I will say is that the scroll itself isn't bad. It's just that for 5 points more you get heartrenders who are guaranteed the extra move. Taking a unit of them is absolutely fine; they'll still do plenty.

They stand on objectives and die. It's all they really need to do, tbh, but it's all they're really capable of. At best they'll force an unleashed hell or strip a few wounds off of a character. If they were 3 attacks each or had their own buff character like the Gladiatrix, maybe they'd be good. They don't, so Heartrenders are better in 99% of situations.

[Lucentia]

Yeah, maybe if they'd kept the bonus damage on charge or had an extra base attack they'd be an interesting option as a cheap, fast missile to clear off opposing screens, but as it stands they're only really going to be doing the same things as Heartrenders but not as a good.

A shame cos I've got 20 of the flappy idiots and they were in a pretty fun spot last book! Ah well.

[The World Tree]

8 hours ago, Rebluff said:

They stand on objectives and die. It's all they really need to do, tbh, but it's all they're really capable of. At best they'll force an unleashed hell or strip a few wounds off of a character. If they were 3 attacks each or had their own buff character like the Gladiatrix, maybe they'd be good. They don't, so Heartrenders are better in 99% of situations.

That's what I am saying, there's still plenty of utility in the unit, it just pales in comparison to renders...

[Milano]

I thought about running my first Zainthar Kai list this weekend;

Hag Queen on Cauldron of Blood - General, Zealous Orator, Crown of Woe, Sacrament of Blood

Morathi-Khaine*

The Shadow Queen *

Bloodwrack Medusa - Shadow Stone, Mindrazor*

20xWitch Aelves (Bladed Buckler)

10xBlood Sisters*

10xBlood Stalkers*

Heart of Fury (45)

*Vyperic Guard

1995pts

I‘m very tempted to go all in with the Bloodwrack Medusa and make her general with Arcane Master, but the Rally trait feels too important to be left out. Hm, any thoughts?

[Chumphammer]

21 hours ago, Milano said:

I thought about running my first Zainthar Kai list this weekend;

Hag Queen on Cauldron of Blood - General, Zealous Orator, Crown of Woe, Sacrament of Blood

Morathi-Khaine*

The Shadow Queen *

Bloodwrack Medusa - Shadow Stone, Mindrazor*

20xWitch Aelves (Bladed Buckler)

10xBlood Sisters*

10xBlood Stalkers*

Heart of Fury (45)

*Vyperic Guard

1995pts

I‘m very tempted to go all in with the Bloodwrack Medusa and make her general with Arcane Master, but the Rally trait feels too important to be left out. Hm, any thoughts?

Points are tough if going Morathi, and atm I think you have a lot in heroes where in Cobra Kai you actually want more snakes. Could ditch the medusa and just have the cauldron then have Battleline plus 1 for 2 drops. 

Tbh? I think MSU snakes is the way to go. Have the 10 of Stalkers still for the CA, but maybe for the sisters go units of 5

Id also ditch the WE for more Sisters as WE get no bonus in Cobra kai

Finally, I think 2x5 Heartrenders is kinda an auto include as its 2 Easy Battletactics (Savage spearhead and Cruel Delight

 

[Rebluff]

On 6/6/2022 at 6:46 PM, Lucentia said:

Yeah, maybe if they'd kept the bonus damage on charge or had an extra base attack they'd be an interesting option as a cheap, fast missile to clear off opposing screens, but as it stands they're only really going to be doing the same things as Heartrenders but not as a good.

A shame cos I've got 20 of the flappy idiots and they were in a pretty fun spot last book! Ah well.

...So...a number of box sets have had Khinerai in them and I already had quite a few because I thought the old Double Move battalion would be fun with them...so I MAY currently find myself with 20 Lifetakers, 10 HeartRenders and 30 unbuilt Khinerai. Which is not at all problematice.

[Milano]

Thanks for the list feedback. Tweaked my list a bit and added a freshly painted Heart of Fury. 

[Rebluff]

So what do you think the best way to abuse the new Galarian Veterans mechanic (I know that's a pokemon region, I'm not changing it) so we get the benefits but none of the downsides?

Zainthar Kai fight on death to exploit the hell out of the +1 damage battalion?

Heart of Fury to completely negate the benefit of the +1 damage battalion?

Medusa/Hagg queen general to avoid making snakes battleline so they get the +1 damage against other batteline without being +1 damage against them?

2 damage lifetaker units chasing down their veterans with a 14" move and doing 10 damage with just the turn 3 Bloodrite buff, up to 20 with Mindrazor?

So many ways to get value at none of the cost!