Question about Cities of Sigmar Command Trait

[Melcar]

Real quick:

Does taking the "One with Fire and Ice" Command Trait make your general a wizard? As in, will the casting of a spell, through the means of this command, trait activate the "Attuned to Magic" ability of the Phoenixes?

Cheers!

Edited February 20, 2020 by Melcar

[Kadeton]

Unfortunately not. Since the trait doesn't say that a non-Wizard model becomes a Wizard, they aren't one. Instead, they're governed by the non-Wizard casting rule (p.233 in the Core Rules):

Sometimes an ability will allow a model that is not a wizard to attempt to cast or unbind spells. They do so using the rules below and are affected by abilities that modify casting or unbinding rolls, but they are not a wizard for any other rules purposes.

Since the Attuned to Magic ability specifies that it must be a friendly Wizard casting the spell, it will not come into effect when a friendly non-Wizard casts a spell.

[Melcar]

Thank you for your very clear answer. Probably the most well explained answer I've ever gotten. Thank you for that.

Another question if I may:
If my general - Anointed of Asuryan on Frostheart Phoenix - takes the "Ironoak Artisan" command trait, from Living City, and has his "Attuned to Magic" ability activated, and he wore the artifact "Jade Diadem", would it then be correct that my general would in fact heal 1 wound when he made a save roll of 4+?

Cheers

Edited February 20, 2020 by Melcar

[XReN]

Can't check Diadem at the moment, but if it goes on 6+ instead of unmodified - than you can trigger it on 4+, but since rend also affects the save roll, units with rending attacks will make it harder

[Melcar]

The Diadem does indeed go off on a 6+, thus being modifiable. Hadn't thought about the rend tho... still pretty nice... I'm going to try it out for sure. Maybe its just nice on paper!...

Thank you.

[Aelfric]

28 minutes ago, Melcar said:

The Diadem does indeed go off on a 6+, thus being modifiable. Hadn't thought about the rend tho... still pretty nice... I'm going to try it out for sure. Maybe its just nice on paper!...

Thank you.

Unfortunately, it was FAQed to work on an unmodified roll of 6 so you can no longer modify it.  It's still a nice item though.

[Melcar]

6 minutes ago, Aelfric said:

Unfortunately, it was FAQed to work on an unmodified roll of 6 so you can no longer modify it.  It's still a nice item though.

God ****** dammit! 🤬

Edited February 20, 2020 by Melcar

[Aelfric]

2 minutes ago, Melcar said:

God ****** dammit...

I know - caught me out too.  It's probably for the best, though.  2+ save healing on 4+ is probably a tad too much.  If you want a hard -to-kill Phoenix,  you could always go Anvilguard.  The Drakescale cloak gives a 5+ DPR on wounds and Mortal wounds, giving your Phoenix a possible 3+, 4++, 5+++ - take a Flamespire and it comes back on a 4+.

[Melcar]

9 minutes ago, Aelfric said:

I know - caught me out too.  It's probably for the best, though.  2+ save healing on 4+ is probably a tad too much.  If you want a hard -to-kill Phoenix,  you could always go Anvilguard.  The Drakescale cloak gives a 5+ DPR on wounds and Mortal wounds, giving your Phoenix a possible 3+, 4++, 5+++ - take a Flamespire and it comes back on a 4+.

Indeed.. But I want the Blizzard -1 to wound bobble and the board wide healing from he Living City...

[Melcar]

A followup question on the Jade Diadem:

If I am uninjured, I roll lets say 6 saves, 3 goes through, I roll one 6. Does that then mean I take 3 dam or only 2 dam?

[EMMachine]

33 minutes ago, Melcar said:

A followup question on the Jade Diadem:

If I am uninjured, I roll lets say 6 saves, 3 goes through, I roll one 6. Does that then mean I take 3 dam or only 2 dam?

You take 3 Damage.

The point is allocating wounds is not at the same time as healing the wounds with the Diadem.

Lets say you are attacked by 3 different weapons from one unit.

• You make Hit Rolls, Wound Rolls, Save Rolls (you heal wounds on the Diadem on 6 if wounds are allocated) and Damage Rolls for Weapon 1, the Damage that is caused goes into a Woundpool
• You make Hit Rolls, Wound Rolls, Save Rolls (you heal wounds on the Diadem on 6 if wounds are allocated) and Damage Rolls for Weapon 2, the Damage that is caused goes into a Woundpool
• You make Hit Rolls, Wound Rolls, Save Rolls (you heal wounds on the Diadem on 6 if wounds are allocated) and Damage Rolls for Weapon 3, the Damage that is caused goes into a Woundpool

Now after all Three Weapons are rolled, you allocate the wounds from the woundpool one at the time to the model. After the Model hasn't allocated wounds when the save rolls were made there is no allocated wound healed, it doesn't reduce the wounds that are in the pool for later allocation.

[Melcar]

12 minutes ago, EMMachine said:

You take 3 Damage.

The point is allocating wounds is not at the same time as healing the wounds with the Diadem.

Lets say you are attacked by 3 different weapons from one unit.

• You make Hit Rolls, Wound Rolls, Save Rolls (you heal wounds on the Diadem on 6 if wounds are allocated) and Damage Rolls for Weapon 1, the Damage that is caused goes into a Woundpool
• You make Hit Rolls, Wound Rolls, Save Rolls (you heal wounds on the Diadem on 6 if wounds are allocated) and Damage Rolls for Weapon 2, the Damage that is caused goes into a Woundpool
• You make Hit Rolls, Wound Rolls, Save Rolls (you heal wounds on the Diadem on 6 if wounds are allocated) and Damage Rolls for Weapon 3, the Damage that is caused goes into a Woundpool

Now after all Three Weapons are rolled, you allocate the wounds from the woundpool one at the time to the model. After the Model hasn't allocated wounds when the save rolls were made there is no allocated wound healed, it doesn't reduce the wounds that are in the pool for later allocation.

Would you not be able to heal wounds from the first weapons when getting hit by the second weapon? By then, if we assume you took damage from the first weapons, then would your 6s not heal you then?

I would normally allocate wounds after each weapon? Is that not the way it goes?

EDIT: After looking some more the rules say: "Attacks are resolved one at a time using the following attack sequence" It would seem that attack #2 is healable... Basically you take one at a time... take one save at a time and I guess as soon as damage has been taken, the next save you take is able to heal the wound from previous attacks... right?

 

 

Edited February 21, 2020 by Melcar

[EMMachine]

20 minutes ago, Melcar said:

Would you not be able to heal wounds from the first weapons when getting hit by the second weapon? By then, if we assume you took damage from the first weapons, then would your 6s not heal you then?

I would normally allocate wounds after each weapon? Is that not the way it goes?

EDIT: After looking some more the rules say: "Attacks are resolved one at a time using the following attack sequence" It would seem that attack #2 is healable... Basically you take one at a time... take one save at a time and I guess as soon as damage has been taken, the next save you take is able to heal the wound from previous attacks... right?

 

 

The part you referred to is only the attack sequence Page 7, which is called "Making Attacks" in the rules (To Hit, To Wound, Saveroll and Damage). If you have 20 Attacks you have 20 Attacksequences. Allocating wounds is not part of the Attack Sequence itself.

When we look at allocating Wounds page 7

Quote

ALLOCATING WOUNDS
Once all of a unit’s attacks have been
resolved, add up the damage that was
inflicted. The player commanding
the target unit must then allocate
a number of wounds to the target
unit equal to the damage that
was inflicted.

"Once after all of the unit's attacks have been resolved". So you have rolled Hit Rolls, Wound Rolls, Save Rolls and Damage of all three Weapons, only after them the wounds get allocated.

You can't heal the wounds of Weapon 1 because the model has still 0 allocated wounds at that point

1. For example Weapon 1 makes 2 Damage, you have 0 allocated wounds and 2 wounds in the wound pool
2. Weapon 2 makes 1 Damage, you still have 0 allocated wounds and 3 wounds in the would pool
3. Weapon 3 you roll a save of 6 and would heal an allocated wound (they are still 0 so you can't heal wounds) after the weapon did no damage the woundpool is 3
4. All attacks of the unit have been resolved and the wounds get allocated, after that your model has 3 wounds allocated.

If the model would have allocated 1 wound before the attack, that wound would be healed and after that the model would get the 3 wounds allocated.

Edited February 21, 2020 by EMMachine

[Melcar]

17 minutes ago, EMMachine said:

The part you referred to is only the attack sequence Page 7, which is called "Making Attacks" in the rules (To Hit, To Wound, Saveroll and Damage). If you have 20 Attacks you have 20 Attack sequences. Allocating wounds is not part of the Attack Sequence itself.

When we look at allocating Wounds page 7

"Once after all of the unit's attacks have been resolved". So you have rolled Hit Rolls, Wound Rolls, Save Rolls and Damage of all three Weapons, only after them the wounds get allocated.

You can't heal the wounds of Weapon 1 because the model has still 0 allocated wounds at that point

1. For example Weapon 1 makes 2 Damage, you have 0 allocated wounds and 2 wounds in the wound pool
2. Weapon 2 makes 1 Damage, you still have 0 allocated wounds and 3 wounds in the would pool
3. Weapon 3 you roll a save of 6 and would heal an allocated wound (they are still 0 so you can't heal wounds) after the weapon did no damage the woundpool is 3
4. All attacks of the unit have been resolved and the wounds get allocated, after that your model has 3 wounds allocated.

If the model would have allocated 1 wound before the attack, that wound would be healed and after that the model would get the 3 wounds allocated.

Ok, but the rules on the same page seems to specifically call out multiple weapons as being different. What I mean here is that is says, that multiple attack:

"In order to resolve several attacks
at once, all of the attacks must be
made by models from the same unit,
with the same type of weapon, and
against the same target unit. If this
is the case, make all of the hit rolls at
the same time, then all of the wound
rolls, and finally all of the save rolls."

Would that not mean that between weapon types, you can heal? In your example, I would reason that specifically because its different weapons, you resolve the damage from one weapon type at a time? I can see how the same weapon, like if the unit only have one weapon, like skeleton warriors, but multiple wepons, like your example would seem to be resolved one weapon at a time?

 

Edited February 21, 2020 by Melcar

[EMMachine]

29 minutes ago, Melcar said:

Ok, but the rules on the same page seems to specifically call out multiple weapons as being different. What I mean here is that is says, that multiple attack:

"In order to resolve several attacks
at once, all of the attacks must be
made by models from the same unit,
with the same type of weapon, and
against the same target unit. If this
is the case, make all of the hit rolls at
the same time, then all of the wound
rolls, and finally all of the save rolls."

Would that not mean that between weapon types, you can heal? In your example, I would reason that specifically because its different weapons, you resolve the damage from one weapon type at a time? I can see how the same weapon, like if the unit only have one weapon, like skeleton warriors, but multiple wepons, like your example would seem to be resolved one weapon at a time?

 

So, the wounds are still not allocated to a model.

The Rule mulitple attacks only means the following. I have a unit with 3 different Weapons.

• I have 4 Model with Weapon 1  that has 3 Attacks, Hitting on 3+, Wounding on 4+, having Rend -1 and D3 Damage
• I have 3 Models wiht Weapon 2 that has 3 Attacks, Hitting on 3+, Wounding on 4+, having Rend -1 and 1 Damage
• I have 5 Models wiht Weapon 3 that has 4 Attacks, Hitting on 4+, Wounding on 4+, having Rend -1 and 2 Damage

With the normal rules for the Attackseqence you you make every attack separatly

• Weapon 1 attack 1, Hit, Wound, Save, Damage (if all successful add to the damagepool)
• Weapon 1 attack 2, Hit, Wound, Save, Damage (if all successful add to the damagepool)
• ...
• Weapon 1 attack 12, Hit, Wound, Save, Damage (if all successful add to the damagepool)
• Weapon 2 attack 1, Hit, Wound, Save, Damage (if all successful add to the damagepool)
• ...
• Weapon 2 attack 9, Hit, Wound, Save, Damage (if all successful add to the damagepool)
• Weapon 3 attack 1, Hit, Wound, Save, Damage (if all successful add to the damagepool)
• Weapon 3 attack 2, Hit, Wound, Save, Damage (if all successful add to the damagepool)
• ...
• Weapon 3 attack 20, Hit, Wound, Save, Damage (if all successful add to the damagepool)

The rule for rolling multiple attacks does only mean in that case that you can roll 12 Dice for Weapon 1 add once because all have the save values, that 9 Dice for Weapon 2 and than 20 Dice for Weapon 3. There is noting allocated to a model when the Attacksequence for Weapon 3 is resolved. All 41 Dice of that Example must have been resolved (Hit Roll, Wound Roll, Save Roll, Damage Roll) before a single wound from the pool is allocated to the model. It's only to make the process a little quicker.

You can see the first sentence for this example as the following.

Quote

Once after all 41 of the unit's attacks have been resolved

This is the meaning of all of the unit's attacks.

If this wouldn't be the case the sentence in the corerules should have said the following

Quote

Once after all attacks of one weapon of the unit has been resolved

 

Edit: The rules are written that way, to prevent that you can't prevent models in the same unit from attacking by removing target models in range .

Edited February 21, 2020 by EMMachine

[Melcar]

6 minutes ago, EMMachine said:

So, the wounds are still not allocated to a model.

The Rule mulitple attacks only means the following. I have a unit with 3 different Weapons.

• I have 4 Model with Weapon 1  that has 3 Attacks, Hitting on 3+, Wounding on 4+, having Rend -1 and D3 Damage
• I have 3 Models wiht Weapon 2 that has 3 Attacks, Hitting on 3+, Wounding on 4+, having Rend -1 and 1 Damage
• I have 5 Models wiht Weapon 3 that has 4 Attacks, Hitting on 4+, Wounding on 4+, having Rend -1 and 2 Damage

With the normal rules for the Attackseqence you you make every attack separatly

• Weapon 1 attack 1, Hit, Wound, Save, Damage (if all successful add to the damagepool)
• Weapon 1 attack 2, Hit, Wound, Save, Damage (if all successful add to the damagepool)
• ...
• Weapon 1 attack 12, Hit, Wound, Save, Damage (if all successful add to the damagepool)
• Weapon 2 attack 1, Hit, Wound, Save, Damage (if all successful add to the damagepool)
• ...
• Weapon 2 attack 9, Hit, Wound, Save, Damage (if all successful add to the damagepool)
• Weapon 3 attack 1, Hit, Wound, Save, Damage (if all successful add to the damagepool)
• Weapon 3 attack 2, Hit, Wound, Save, Damage (if all successful add to the damagepool)
• ...
• Weapon 3 attack 20, Hit, Wound, Save, Damage (if all successful add to the damagepool)

The rule for rolling multiple attacks does only mean in that case that you can roll 12 Dice for Weapon 1 add once because all have the save values, that 9 Dice for Weapon 2 and than 20 Dice for Weapon 3. There is noting allocated to a model when the Attacksequence for Weapon 3 is resolved. All 41 Dice of that Example must have been resolved (Hit Roll, Wound Roll, Save Roll, Damage Roll) before a single wound from the pool is allocated to the model.

You can see the first sentence for this example as the following.

This is the meaning of all of the unit's attacks.

If this wouldn't be the case the sentence in the corerules should have said the following

 

So what you're saying is that resolving the attack does not include dealing damage? I guess I take resolve to mean dealing damage also... but that happens in allocation, which is a separate thing handles after resolvement? I that what you mean? I don't think I've actually ever played that way... I think we have allocated wounds after each weapon... Which seems more logical to me... probably why we have always played that way...

[feraxil]

You know whats really cool? If you go phoenicium you can put phoenix pyre ashes on one annointed on phoenix, and if you take the battalion, you can put the diadem on another, and have twinsies!

[Isotop]

4 hours ago, Melcar said:

So what you're saying is that resolving the attack does not include dealing damage? I guess I take resolve to mean dealing damage also... but that happens in allocation, which is a separate thing handles after resolvement? I that what you mean? I don't think I've actually ever played that way... I think we have allocated wounds after each weapon... Which seems more logical to me... probably why we have always played that way...

There is nothing "logical" about the way you played it (at most it is an intuition). Allocating wounds sets in after a units attacks have been resolved - it is super clear from the quotation @EMMachine presented. How are you getting the idea  that wounds from different weapons from the same unit would be resolved one after the other?

Edited February 21, 2020 by Isotop