AoS 2 - Slaves to Darkness 2 Discussion

[Ravinsild]

Some of you may recall my last list I had devised and so far I've gotten 1 Chaos Warshrine and 2 Slaves to Darkness Start Collecting boxes (the new ones). So currently I've got a Warshrine, a Chaos Sorcerer Lord, a Chaos Lord on Foot, 2 Chaos Lord on Karkadraks, 20 Warriors and 10 Knights.

The earlier proposed list had Chaos Chosen, however it was argued to me within those in my group that the list looked unfocused and too spread out. It was argued the Chosen weren't a very good Warscroll.

So I have devised a new list and I'd like to hear your thoughts:

Allegiance: Slaves to Darkness
- Damned Legion: Ravagers
Mortal Realm: Chamon

Leaders
Chaos Lord (110)
- Reaperblade & Daemonbound Steel
- Artefact: Blasphemous Cuirass
- Mark of Chaos: Khorne
- Ravagers Command Trait: Master of Deception
Chaos Lord on Karkadrak (230)
- General
- Command Trait: Eternal Vendetta
- Artefact: Mark of the High-favoured
- Mark of Chaos: Khorne
Chaos Sorcerer Lord (110)
- Mark of Chaos: Tzeentch
- Spell: Whispers of Chaos
- Ravagers Command Trait: Bolstered by Hate

Battleline
15 x Chaos Warriors (270)
- Hand Weapon & Shield
- Mark of Chaos: Khorne
15 x Chaos Warriors (270)
- Hand Weapon & Shield
- Mark of Chaos: Khorne
5 x Chaos Knights (160)
- Cursed Lance
- Mark of Chaos: Khorne
5 x Chaos Knights (160)
- Cursed Lance
- Mark of Chaos: Khorne

Units
5 x Wrathmongers (140)
- Allies
5 x Wrathmongers (140)
- Allies

Behemoths
Chaos Warshrine (170)
- Mark of Chaos: Khorne

Battalions
Godsworn Champions of Ruin (180)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Extra Command Point (50)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 2
Allies: 280 / 400
Wounds: 153
 

I suppose the idea is that my first wave of assault would be the Knights with Lances and Karkadrak Lord who run out and hit first, and the follow up attack or simply those who hold objectives would be the Chaos Sorcerer Lord on Foot, Chaos Lord, Chaos Warriors and Wrathmongers who spread the +1 to attack over the Warriors. I can flip the general back to the Chaos Lord on foot for the Aura re-roll hit rolls of 1 and +1 to wound rolls. I can pray with the Warshrine over them to give re-roll hit rolls and charge rolls, or the undivided prayer to give re-roll hit and wound rolls. I can then cast the spell from the Chaos Sorcerer Lord on the other block for two sets of 15 strong 3 attacks each re-rolling all hit and wound and save rolls Chaos Warriors.

 

I would also be able to attack in the Hero and Combat phase with my Karkadrak Lord in addition to using my Chaos Lord on foot to grant the ability for a selected unit to fight again (Knights, Warriors...)

 

Apparently this is a tighter and more focused list. I have also incorporated suggestions from another poster in-so-far as Command Traits, Artefacts, and loadout per unit.

[Rors]

A double, possible tripple activation karkadrak will do some work no question. That being said, your list isn't low drop even with the betallion, and for the points it costs to have that betallion you could have more models. If you dropped the betallion and did a small amount of shuffling, I think a unit like Belakor would get you more mileage.

 

I'm biased though, I put Belakor in basically every list I write.

Edited February 4, 2021 by Rors
missed segment

[Ravinsild]

19 minutes ago, Rors said:

A double, possible tripple activation karkadrak will do some work no question. That being said, your list isn't low drop even with the betallion, and for the points it costs to have that betallion you could have more models. If you dropped the betallion and did a small amount of shuffling, I think a unit like Belakor would get you more mileage.

 

I'm biased though, I put Belakor in basically every list I write.

My previous list was a 2 drop and this one is a 4 drop.

[Rors]

Unless I've missed something (likely) its:

1. Betallion

2. Lord on foot.

3. Sorc

4. Wrathmonger unit 1

5. Wrathmonger unit 2.

Imo with drops you either want 1 or 2 max, or don't worry about it. At that point you're paying 180 for a some extra activation with the karkadrak, an artifact, and a command point. Ultimately you could polish a list forever and at some point you just gotta roll some dice so if you like your list as is, you'll have a blast, it looks fun. If you compare what you can get for 180 in other books betallions or just in warscrolls in this book, you're paying a premium for those benefits. Still, if you already have those models, you'll be having fun a lot sooner playing that list than waiting to buy and paint another 180 points of something.

 

[Ravinsild]

11 hours ago, Rors said:

Unless I've missed something (likely) its:

1. Betallion

2. Lord on foot.

3. Sorc

4. Wrathmonger unit 1

5. Wrathmonger unit 2.

Imo with drops you either want 1 or 2 max, or don't worry about it. At that point you're paying 180 for a some extra activation with the karkadrak, an artifact, and a command point. Ultimately you could polish a list forever and at some point you just gotta roll some dice so if you like your list as is, you'll have a blast, it looks fun. If you compare what you can get for 180 in other books betallions or just in warscrolls in this book, you're paying a premium for those benefits. Still, if you already have those models, you'll be having fun a lot sooner playing that list than waiting to buy and paint another 180 points of something.

 

The Sorcerer Lord can be found taken in the battalion without being the main hero requirement. 
 

I had the Bloodmarked Warband previously instead and had Chosen over Wrathmongers. I think out of sequence fighting is valuable and I think the extra Artefact and CP are worth It because I was able to give the foot lord the same 5+ mortal wound shrug everyone else has. 

[Boar]

3 hours ago, Ravinsild said:

The Sorcerer Lord can be found taken in the battalion without being the main hero requirement. 
 

App is wrong on this one only Warriors, Chosen, Knights and both Marauders count

 

[Agent of Chaos]

Rolled out the Idolators for the first time last night (game 1 of 6 in our 1250 point campaign) against an Anvilgard army with 30 great swords and 20 crossbows in a Knife to the Heart battleplan.

We both had 9 drops but of course I lost the roll off for deployment so he made me take first turn. No matter, we were close enough for a chariot alpha strike (the chariot also happened to be my Bait for an Auxiliary Objective) and he had left an opening in his lines where I could get at the crossbows. Naturally I failed the 2+ warshrine khorne prayer while I chose to hold the Idolator lord back and out of shooting range. This meant the chariot was not rerolling charges and I of course failed. I cast daemonic power on the marauders but then failed mask of darkness so I just held everything back. He shot the chariot to bits in his first turn but otherwise just moved forward.

I won priority into Round 2 and probably could have given my opponent the turn here but I felt like things had been going against me and I wanted to do some damage. Again I failed mask of darkness so the marauders were stuck at the back. I charged my glaive knights into his crossbows & dread spears on my left (having given them reroll hits from the Idolator Lord) while my ensorcelled weapon knights went into the handgunner screening the great swords on my right. I wiped out the dread spears and handgunners, losing a couple of glaive knights to his assassin and all but one of my knights to the great swords, which I kept around with a CP. He finished off all my knights with shooting and then made a 12" charge into my Idolator lord with the greatswords. I thought he was done for but suddenly I managed to roll some 6 up shrugs from the warshrine and rerolling saves from the sorcerer came into play; when the dust settled I only took 5 wounds from about 15 great swords hitting me! 

I again won priority (at least something was going right for me), finally cast mask of darkness which I used to move the Idolator Lord out of combat, put Chaos Undivded prayer on the marauders and proceeded to wipe out the great swords with them. The Idolator Lord failed his charge onto the Runelord that was supporting the great swords (shame because I really wanted an eye of the gods roll). In his turn he shot the warshrine to bits, then finished it off with the assassin who was now threatening my objective.

I won priority into Round 4, used my run and charge with the Idolator Lord to get around the flank and charge the shadow warriors holding his objective, made a 12" charge with the Marauders onto the same unit and charged the assassin with 5 chaos warriors (needed my Overwhelm Auxiliary Objective). The chariot took out half the shadow warriors, they killed a couple of marauders in return, my chaos warriors finished off the assassin and then my marauders piled onto the objective before finishing off the shadow warriors and secured the win!

This game was a real lesson in patience. Apart from the priority rolls and one good armour save event for the Idolator Lord, I was failing everything and getting beaten up. I dont regret going for that alpha strike as it could have been glorious on another day. I was right to hold my Idolator Lord back until he had an opening and I'm finding a hero chariot is a good thing to have. Onto game 2 against Ogres!

[Rors]

If you have the models ready your far better off play testing than theory crafting.

3 hours ago, Ravinsild said:

The Sorcerer Lord can be found taken in the battalion without being the main hero requirement. 
 

I had the Bloodmarked Warband previously instead and had Chosen over Wrathmongers. I think out of sequence fighting is valuable and I think the extra Artefact and CP are worth It because I was able to give the foot lord the same 5+ mortal wound shrug everyone else has. 

 

There's always Table Too Simulator too. In the future I doubt I'll ever buy a list until I've tried it on TTS.

[nurglish]

If Idolator priest has leader keyword, then can chaos warshrine have leader keyword and be general?

[Kurrilino]

12 hours ago, nurglish said:

If Idolator priest has leader keyword, then can chaos warshrine have leader keyword and be general?

I absolutely think they can. You just can't give any artefacts

[nurglish]

4 hours ago, Kurrilino said:

I absolutely think they can. You just can't give any artefacts

then can they have command traits?

[Boar]

7 hours ago, nurglish said:

then can they have command traits?

only HERO general get command traits

[Archion89]

Can an Idolators chaos lord fit into a ruinbringer warband cleanly? Assuming you fill the battalion and one of the chariots then become the idolator lord, allowing two heroes in the battalion?

[Rors]

Since they only gain key words and don't loose any, yes, you could have a chariot lord in a betallion.

[Archion89]

10 hours ago, Rors said:

Since they only gain key words and don't loose any, yes, you could have a chariot lord in a betallion.

Great, thanks.  Still missing out on the second artefact but that adds more buffing and mark flexibility in the ruin bringer battalion.

Was thinking of making my 1k ruin bringer list as:

Idolator Chaos Lord on Chariot

Chaos Lord on Daemonic Mount

2x 5 Knights

2x Chaos Chariot

Ruin Bringer Battalion

Comes out to 990 pts.

Edited February 8, 2021 by Archion89

[Kurrilino]

5 hours ago, Archion89 said:

Great, thanks.  Still missing out on the second artefact but that adds more buffing and mark flexibility in the ruin bringer battalion.

Was thinking of making my 1k ruin bringer list as:

Idolator Chaos Lord on Chariot

Chaos Lord on Daemonic Mount

2x 5 Knights

2x Chaos Chariot

Ruin Bringer Battalion

Comes out to 990 pts.

Maybe i read this wrong but i believe the Idolators have no mark flexibility at all.

They have to be unmarked

[Archion89]

8 minutes ago, Kurrilino said:

Maybe i read this wrong but i believe the Idolators have no mark flexibility at all.

They have to be unmarked

I believe that's only if you take their battalion for Rokar Gresh now.  In the new FAQ for Morathi book they  state they can take any of the marks and all cultists in Idolators damned legion must match.

So what I'm going for is Idolators damned legion with ruin bringer battalion.  I should be able to take whichever mark (in this case Khorne) to match up with the rest.  It gives me another hero aura to spread around in the 1k list.

Edited February 8, 2021 by Archion89

[Agent of Chaos]

19 minutes ago, Kurrilino said:

Maybe i read this wrong but i believe the Idolators have no mark flexibility at all.

They have to be unmarked

Idolators can choose a mark like everyone else. Thats why the Idolator Lord has 5 different prayers, with the one he takes dependent on his mark. Only the battalion locks you into Undivided for your Idolator Lord but that doesnt stop other units from taking a mark of their choice.

[whispersofblood]

6 hours ago, Agent of Chaos said:

Idolators can choose a mark like everyone else. Thats why the Idolator Lord has 5 different prayers, with the one he takes dependent on his mark. Only the battalion locks you into Undivided for your Idolator Lord but that doesnt stop other units from taking a mark of their choice.

if you upgrade a chaos chariot of a gorebeast chariot to a idolators lord, All idolators cultists gain the mark of chaos of that was picked for that idolators lord.

[Agent of Chaos]

33 minutes ago, whispersofblood said:

if you upgrade a chaos chariot of a gorebeast chariot to a idolators lord, All idolators cultists gain the mark of chaos of that was picked for that idolators lord.

Yes, the FAQ now dictates the marks for cultists, who previously couldnt get a mark at all.

However that rule has no effect on the rest of the army though, who can choose marks as they please. 

[Kurrilino]

On 2/3/2021 at 2:01 PM, Ravinsild said:

Some of you may recall my last list I had devised and so far I've gotten 1 Chaos Warshrine and 2 Slaves to Darkness Start Collecting boxes (the new ones). So currently I've got a Warshrine, a Chaos Sorcerer Lord, a Chaos Lord on Foot, 2 Chaos Lord on Karkadraks, 20 Warriors and 10 Knights.

The earlier proposed list had Chaos Chosen, however it was argued to me within those in my group that the list looked unfocused and too spread out. It was argued the Chosen weren't a very good Warscroll.

 

DO NOT listen to you gaming group.

3 attacks each, 2 damage on 6's, -1 rend, -1 bravery to opponent, make all other SLtD  units reroll wounds.

This is exactly what you need before attacking with Chaos warriors and Knights

So the list would be greatly focused on the strength of Std. Play this in a cabalist-nurgle style with Festus and you will show them "not very good"

 

The only shame is that the book itself discourages playing anything else but the Marauder 1 trick pony.

What they really need is a battalion for all the original Warrior of Chaos units instead being forced to play all the weirdo units that nobody likes

Edited February 9, 2021 by Kurrilino

[Kurrilino]

On 1/27/2021 at 3:12 PM, Ganigumo said:

20 points cheaper, but they have more bodies, 8 iron golems per 5 chaos warriors. Its a big deal for controlling objectives and space, and 20 points is a lot when you're running bigger units. 24 iron golems is 30 wounds for 210 points, 15 chaos warriors are 270 points for 30 wounds. The price difference is significant when you're running a lot of them, and chaos warriors don't exactly have high damage anyways. Plus it's much more difficult to maintain the rerolls on chaos warriors who need 10+ models, where iron golems keep it to the last model. 

also as @Sinfullyvannila said they only lose rerolls if they made a normal move. which means charges and pile-ins don't break it, you also have it if you just moved up/ran and didn't charge, since it will be active again when your opponent gets to charge. 

The point of these guys is durability, and they do it better than chaos warriors for cheaper, leaving points leftover to fill in the loss in offense.

We kinda miss the fact that Warriors have 2 wounds each. If it comes to durability, warriors are touch as nails.

Another limiting fact is that you can't play the golems outside of Idolators. No marks, no keywords, no battleline, no nothing

We are talking 60 points here i gladly spend. Also to have Golems have a mark has hidden costs of a chariot.

So those guys are actually more expensive for bringing less to the table

Edited February 9, 2021 by Kurrilino

[Ganigumo]

13 minutes ago, Kurrilino said:

We kinda miss the fact that Warriors have 2 wounds each. If it comes to durability, warriors are touch as nails.

Another limiting fact is that you can't play the golems outside of Idolators. No marks, no keywords, no battleline, no nothing

We are talking 60 points here i gladly spend. Also to have Golems have a mark has hidden costs of a chariot.

So those guys are actually more expensive for bringing less to the table

Obviously cultists are weak outside of Idolators. In terms of wound efficiency golems are 7 points per wound, marauders are 8 points per wound, and warriors are 9 points per wound. 

The problem with warriors is that they serve literally no purpose in the army. They don't hit hard enough, take objectives well enough, aren't fast enough, aren't durable enough for the cost, and don't have access to any unique buffs. We can all play what we like, Warriors are really cool, but they lose to marauders in pretty much every meaningful aspect. In a competitive setting it's very hard to justify their inclusion. Idolators cultists (some of them) actually provide some decent pushback to the benefits of taking marauders, in a way Warriors don't, because they have that same broken charge rule. Iron golems in particular are strong because they actually do something marauders don't since they focus on being an anvil.

Idolator cultists aren't a Warrior alternative, they're a marauder alternative.

[Boar]

1 hour ago, Ganigumo said:

Idolator cultists aren't a Warrior alternative, they're a marauder alternative.

But they don't hit hard which is marauders schtick, this is strange take to me TBH. And warriors are better defensively than marauders if someone wants to go that route

[Ravinsild]

11 hours ago, Kurrilino said:

DO NOT listen to you gaming group.

3 attacks each, 2 damage on 6's, -1 rend, -1 bravery to opponent, make all other SLtD  units reroll wounds.

This is exactly what you need before attacking with Chaos warriors and Knights

So the list would be greatly focused on the strength of Std. Play this in a cabalist-nurgle style with Festus and you will show them "not very good"

 

The only shame is that the book itself discourages playing anything else but the Marauder 1 trick pony.

What they really need is a battalion for all the original Warrior of Chaos units instead being forced to play all the weirdo units that nobody likes

Did you happen to see my first list? I agree, I wish there was a battalion for Warriors and Chosen. 
 

I don’t know if it would be practical to attack with Chosen before the Knights, but the entire purpose of the chosen was to give re-roll wound rolls to my Chaos Warriors and assuming I needed to I could pray over them from the Warshrine to re-roll hit rolls (Khorne) and/or use the magic spell from the sorcerer. 
 

With chosen I have several sources of re-roll hit rolls, and wound rolls between the Chaos Sorcerer Lord spell, the Chaos Warshrine and the Chosen themselves.