Cities tier list!

[Rune]

16 minutes ago, Gwendar said:

@Rune It's not really; typical lists run at least 3 Battlemages\Sorceress' + a Hurricanum which is already 550 points and some will add in a Knight-Incantor\Other SC wizard to bring the Comet. Throw in the battalion and 4-5 Endless spells (potentially adding in the comet) and you're already at or exceeding 800 points usually.

Now, unlike TE and other CoS units, most of your damage is coming from these Wizards aside from maybe 1-2 units getting buffs like PG, Irondrakes, etc... but the point is that those units tend to be better in other Cities like TE and you need only bring a couple of buffing hero's as they tend to do most of their damage on their own and over greater distances.

I don't think we meant to say TE will always dunk on HH or anything, but by a direct comparison (which is the topic of this thread) it is better overall for various reasons given.

I'm saying that "800 points less on the table" is not the right thing to say.

I'm not saying that a Hallowheart list spends 800 on models to get advantage of the faction rules. That's by no means comparable to say they are not on the table. 

 

[Tidings]

I think at this point I've made my case as best as I can as to why I think TE is a stronger meta army right now. I'm not saying Hallowheart is bad, it's incredibly strong. It's just got some matchups that it struggles with that TE can handle. 

And like I originally said, none of this even matters because this month the points update might change everything, and then soon after that the upcoming KO book will certainly impact how relevant TE is. 

[Tidings]

25 minutes ago, Gwendar said:

I don't think we meant to say TE will always dunk on HH or anything, but by a direct comparison (which is the topic of this thread) it is better overall for various reasons given.

Exactly! Someone threw down the "Hallowheart beats TE because it kills 60 Arkanaut" and I just wanted to set that straight because rules as written, that was just impossible lol. We got lost down this rabbit hole.

@Rune I think I just wasn't very clear. I didn't mean 800 less points on the table in the way you are stating, I just meant that the 800 points Hallowheart is spending is basically just a few models. While those are very powerful, it's still a lot less wounds, less bodies to take objectives and hold areas, less deepstriking, less fill in the blank. The opportunity cost of taking such strong casters and spells is that you just have less soldiers of all kinds to tackle the objectives with. So now it all comes down to how well can the casters carry that weight. Against a good number of lists (Skaven, Shootcast, Nighthaunt, OBR, all orks but especially Bonesplitters, etc) the wizards can't pull the weight reliably. 

Edited December 13, 2019 by Tidings

[Rune]

25 minutes ago, Gwendar said:

@Rune It's not really; typical lists run at least 3 Battlemages\Sorceress' + a Hurricanum which is already 550 points and some will add in a Knight-Incantor\Other SC wizard to bring the Comet. Throw in the battalion and 4-5 Endless spells (potentially adding in the comet) and you're already at or exceeding 800 points usually.

Now, unlike TE and other CoS units, most of your damage is coming from these Wizards aside from maybe 1-2 units getting buffs like PG, Irondrakes, etc... but the point is that those units tend to be better in other Cities like TE and you need only bring a couple of buffing hero's as they tend to do most of their damage on their own and over greater distances.

I don't think we meant to say TE will always dunk on HH or anything, but by a direct comparison (which is the topic of this thread) it is better overall for various reasons given.

 

6 minutes ago, Tidings said:

I didn't do the math, I just threw a number out there. But here's the units you commonly see in Hallowheart lists that I wouldn't put in a TE list for example. Incantor, extra battlemage and sorc, Sisters of the Thorn, and I split the difference on your endless spells estimate. That adds up to 725 points. With 725 points I can replace those 3 characters, 5 Sisters and the spells with 30 Phoenix Guard and an Annointed on a Flamspyre Phoenix. Or 60 Shadow Warriors. 

That's just an example, but if you are doing a low drop Hallowheart list, your opponent WILL have a lot more bodies on the table than you. If you get 1 or 2 less wizards and stick with only 1 or 2 endless spells, it's not as bad. 

I'm saying that "800 points less on the table" is not the right thing to say.

I'm not saying that a Hallowheart list spends 800 (even though that's most likely like 500 points) on models to get advantage of the faction rules. That's by no means comparable to say they are not on the table.

 

But I keep derailing this topic so I will skip out. Sorry for doing that, just felt as it was the right thing to cortect what I thought was an incorrect statement. 

[Tidings]

1 minute ago, Rune said:

I'm saying that "800 points less on the table" is not the right thing to say. 

I edited my post as you posted this haha, hopefully that clarifies what I meant. Sorry for confusion.

[prochuvi]

1--hallowheart

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-then many tiers under is tempest eye

- then living city only for fun

-the rest is garbagge as every dwarf unit(even hammerers that are the best dwarf unit are a joke vs any other elite unit)

[Gwendar]

13 hours ago, prochuvi said:

-then many tiers under is tempest eye

-the rest is garbagge as every dwarf unit(even hammerers that are the best dwarf unit are a joke vs any other elite unit)

I would disagree with that.. Dwarves in a TE list are absolutely nuts. Take a Bridge, Ghur Battlemage, Hurricanum, Runelord, Warden, etc and load up on the buffs. Those 20 Irondrakes are melting a unit per turn. 20 Hammerers? Also melting things and the extra speed (and Bridge) makes them more dangerous in the 1st turn. Not to mention the Dwarf units are more resilient and benefit a lot more from that +1 save which means they can hold up better if you don't get 1st turn. This is even including 30-40 Arkanauts or 9 Endrinriggers + Khemist, the latter of which gives you more mobility in an incredibly killy package.

Are there better choices? I mean yeah, maybe? But I find a lot of them so close that it really doesn't matter. In my opinion the Dwarf units stack buffs far better than some other units and end up being a lot more dangerous overall.

[prochuvi]

Sure,but the problem is.....take any other unit of the tome(wood elfs,phoenyx guard,dark elfs,humanz) and get all those same buffs and spells.......you gonna have the same than with your dwarfs for less points and double move,or same points with better stats and more move.

 

It is easy,dwarfs need have move 6 or then it isnt a point to have same offensive and defensive stats than other units with same cost but with 50% less move

[Gwendar]

10 minutes ago, prochuvi said:

Sure,but the problem is.....take any other unit of the tome(wood elfs,phoenyx guard,dark elfs,humanz) and get all those same buffs and spells.......you gonna have the same than with your dwarfs for less points and double move,or same points with better stats and more move.

It is easy,dwarfs need have move 6 or then it isnt a point to have same offensive and defensive stats than other units with same cost but with 50% less move

I mean, PG sure, I get that. As for less points, no.. you may want to look through again because from what I see, those Dwarf units put out more firepower for less on average. You also aren't giving +1 rend and the like like you are with Hammerers and Irondrakes. Not to mention, again, the defensiveness (not counting PG, obviously) and the movement is really not a big deal with what I described above by being in TE and using bridge to mitigate some of the slowness.

Giving them a 6" move instantly makes them the best option. Disagree or not, offensively and defensively they tend to be better on average\as a whole for their points cost.

[prochuvi]

How? A fast compara of ironbreakers vs sequitors

 

Both cost 130points

 

Sequitors:

Damage of 3 2hand weapons and 2 one hand weapons:

  ---without buff the weapon: 6'2 with 1 rend(two hands)+2(one hand sword)=8'2 total damage

 ---with the buffed weapons:7'55 with 1 rend (two hands)+3'33(one hand sword)=10'88 total damage

Tankiness:save of 4 rerolling 1 or 4 rerolling all with shield buff

  ---without shield buff:a save of 3'5

  ---with shield buff: a save of 1'5

 

Ironbreakers:

Damage: 7 damage with 0 rend

Tankiness: save of 3

 

 

Conclusion: for same cost ironbreakers have 1 less move and have less damage in every situation and without rend.

So if sequitors buff the weapon have around 50% more damage output and with 1 rend and only a 0'5 worse save

If buff the shield then have better,better damage and with rend and more move

 

Also it is easier to get figth with 5 sequitors than with 10 ironbreakers

 

This is only a first compare,there are so much better units for same cost in the tome,also irondrakes vs free people rangueds are a joke also.

 

Dispossesed are a joke rigth now,the slowest units of the game and havent any other stat to compesate it. Fyreslayers are slow as disposesed and so they got dowble wounds to compesate it.

 

It is easy to see that dispossesed are a joke when nobody use any dipossesed unit in every cos competitive lists. 

[Gwendar]

@prochuvi Ok, but why compare Ironbreakers vs. Sequitors? Not to mention they do have rend by taking a Runelord... but why would I put rend on them and not an actual damage unit? 20 Irondrakes fully stacked vs. 30 Handgunners is a joke, you're right... if the Handgunners are the joke, at least that's what quick math suggests.

Anyway, it's obvious I won't change your mind which is fine 😉 this is more about the Cities anyway than individual units.

Edited December 16, 2019 by Gwendar

[prochuvi]

Yes of course a unit that have overwatch,now compare to the other unit of crossbowmen,have more damage than irondrakes and with almost double!! Rangue

[Tidings]

I honestly don't know what you're going on about. Irondrakes and Arkanaut Company are currently our best ranged units by a huge margin. Sisters of the Watch and Freeguild are also good, but point for point you have way better damage potential from the Dwarves because they have the best synergies and are already efficient. 

If the movement bothers you, use bridge. You shouldn't be moving anyways, even if you're using crossbows or sisters or any of the "better" units. 

Sure PG are the best anvil Cities has, but at the next tier Dwarves are competing with Eternal Guard, who are only better when they don't move at all. 

[SwampHeart]

I've had a chance to play games with LC, TE, and HH. I've played at least 7-8 games with each (about 15 now with TE) and in my experience I'd say the current rankings are:

-TE
-HH
-LC

But that said they are very close. I found HH was very potent but I ran into an issue where against shooting armies I was getting my characters smashed to bits before I could really get into the meat of their usefulness (specifically Longstrikes dropping in and popping away, very difficult to screen out due to their range). I definitely think the tiering is going to be very meta dependent as well - right now shooting is in a very powerful spot so TE gets a bump but that could change with a KO change obviously. If shooting continues to shift to the fore then I think LC bumps ahead of the other two for the fact that we have access to so many cheap drops to allow us to stack hidden paths that we'll have one of the best beta strikes in the game. 

Also I'd advise against trying to reason with a certain poster in this thread - they effectively exists on TGA to make a statement and then will argue with you about that statement no matter what evidence you might provide. There is no conversation to be had there. 

Edited December 16, 2019 by SwampHeart

[Tidings]

@SwampHeart Yep, I completely agree. HH could be strongest except gatekeeper armies (in this case anything that can kill heroes easily) are all over the place. I don't know that LC would beat out TE, because good opponents often screen you out of ambushing anywhere important and the bonus movement + run and shoot in TE means you can basically alpha from your own deployment zone if you want, with bonuses to wound. But it's really hard to say before the points adjustments and KO update haha.

[zilberfrid]

I think HH as abbreviation isn't stellar. Is it HammerHal, or HallowHeart?

Mostly the latter, but still.

[Tidings]

1 minute ago, zilberfrid said:

I think HH as abbreviation isn't stellar. Is it HammerHal, or HallowHeart?

Mostly the latter, but still.

Hallowheart, guys I know use HMH for Hammerhal lol. I agree it's not great haha. 

[SwampHeart]

55 minutes ago, Tidings said:

I don't know that LC would beat out TE, because good opponents often screen you out of ambushing anywhere important

I think the key here is that I still value shooting over combat even in LC so even with good screening you should be able to pop out still in shooting range and not having given your opponent a chance to deal with your shooters before they show up. 

[Tidings]

1 hour ago, SwampHeart said:

I think the key here is that I still value shooting over combat even in LC so even with good screening you should be able to pop out still in shooting range and not having given your opponent a chance to deal with your shooters before they show up. 

Yeah that can work, depends a lot on the opponent and matchup. When I play against other city lists they really only get to shoot at my Phoenix Guard most of the time cause of screening (against LC or bridge).

[SwampHeart]

8 minutes ago, Tidings said:

Yeah that can work, depends a lot on the opponent and matchup. When I play against other city lists they really only get to shoot at my Phoenix Guard most of the time cause of screening (against LC or bridge).

Its not fool proof at all but one of the best ways not to get shot at is simply to not be on the table for the first turn.  LC overall I think is interesting because it has the potential to be very good or mediocre and its all very dependent on what the rest of the meta is doing at the time. Honestly that's not untrue for most of the rest of Cities though, its very much so a big tool box army that can lend itself to playing against the current meta. 

[Tidings]

7 minutes ago, SwampHeart said:

Its not fool proof at all but one of the best ways not to get shot at is simply to not be on the table for the first turn.  LC overall I think is interesting because it has the potential to be very good or mediocre and its all very dependent on what the rest of the meta is doing at the time. Honestly that's not untrue for most of the rest of Cities though, its very much so a big tool box army that can lend itself to playing against the current meta. 

Yep I think that's our biggest strength! The Tier list kinda doesn't matter, because a really good HH list will do better than a poorly thought out LC list, and then the opposite is true too. The top 3 all have ways to be very strong. The other cities need a bit of love imo. 

[SwampHeart]

1 minute ago, Tidings said:

Yep I think that's our biggest strength! The Tier list kinda doesn't matter, because a really good HH list will do better than a poorly thought out LC list, and then the opposite is true too. The top 3 all have ways to be very strong. The other cities need a bit of love imo. 

I think Hammerhal has some legs and GWF has one of the nastiest alphas in the game. I just don't think they've got the same breadth of tools as the top 3 cities. Phoenicum lives pretty happily in the 'fun for casual play/FLGS tournament' band and Anvilguard is Anvilguard. Its really sad because I think Vitriotic Spray + Portals is amazing and could probably carry the city but then you just look at what all you give up to get there and feels so lackluster. That said just typing this I wonder if there is value in a 3 prong Anvilguard shooting build where you look at some Helstorms, some Longstrikes, and some maybe Crossbowmen or Darkshards so that you can really effectively unpack an enemy army in one turn? 

[Dr Ben]

4 hours ago, SwampHeart said:

I think Hammerhal has some legs and GWF has one of the nastiest alphas in the game. I just don't think they've got the same breadth of tools as the top 3 cities. Phoenicum lives pretty happily in the 'fun for casual play/FLGS tournament' band and Anvilguard is Anvilguard. Its really sad because I think Vitriotic Spray + Portals is amazing and could probably carry the city but then you just look at what all you give up to get there and feels so lackluster. That said just typing this I wonder if there is value in a 3 prong Anvilguard shooting build where you look at some Helstorms, some Longstrikes, and some maybe Crossbowmen or Darkshards so that you can really effectively unpack an enemy army in one turn? 

Yeah, Hammerhal hasn't been discussed that much on this thread. But I reckon some pretty viable lists could be put together. A double fighting frostheart or two with +1 to hit from command trait/artefact and rerolling wounds command ability seems like it would be pretty hard for many armies to deal with. 

In reference to earlier shooting discussions and discussion about Hallowheart lists which have focused on magic damage output.... Hallowheart shooting lists I think could give tempests eye equivalents a run for their money. I haven't had the chance to play out the match so all theory. But in theory... Ignite weapons replaces hawk eyed very well if you are focused on one big unit of irondrakes/handgunners. The hurricanum for hit bonus is obviously amazing in Hallowheart. Spell protection helps against debuffs and mortal wounds on your 30 irondrakes. And you can either send them up the board with the bridge or block your enemy with spells while you shoot them. 

[Tidings]

1 hour ago, Dr Ben said:

In reference to earlier shooting discussions and discussion about Hallowheart lists which have focused on magic damage output.... Hallowheart shooting lists I think could give tempests eye equivalents a run for their money. I haven't had the chance to play out the match so all theory. But in theory... Ignite weapons replaces hawk eyed very well if you are focused on one big unit of irondrakes/handgunners. The hurricanum for hit bonus is obviously amazing in Hallowheart. Spell protection helps against debuffs and mortal wounds on your 30 irondrakes. And you can either send them up the board with the bridge or block your enemy with spells while you shoot them. 

Yeah, that's what you have to do in Hallowheart if you want to focus on shooting. I've done both a good amount. Regarding Ignite Weapons, you're usually better off just using it on a melee unit though since you get twice as many activations with the buff on, but it does work well on Irondrakes and all that. Hurricanum is amazing in just about any cities list

My experience in tournaments so far is that Hallowheart Wizards get killed too easily, and TE 1st round bonuses make you mostly impervious to alpha strikes and the other things Cities struggles against, while having more tools for focusing on multiple objectives at the same time.

[Gwendar]

38 minutes ago, Tidings said:

while having more tools for focusing on multiple objectives at the same time.

Which, that's kind of the key really. HH forces a more 'bunker' playstyle which could mean you'll be losing out on objectives unless you wipe everything off the board T1\2... and this game is won on objectives so if you can't do that then.. well. 

Having played against Slaanesh a couple times with my TE list (the more casual Pistolier one I've been using) I could safely say without TE I would've stood even less of a chance than I already did 😉