Ironjawz questions

[Radken]

I have read through the Battletome but am finding no reference to my question.  I am considering fielding some Fellwater Troggoths in my ironjawz army but am concerned I will lose out on the Ironfist battleline, is this true?

 

I read somewhere that u cannot use those battalions if your entire army is NOT Ironjawz keyword?

Also this related to wanting to take an Orc Great Shaman over a Weirdnob to start with too.

[Garxia]

If you use the Fellwater Troggoths and the Orc Great Shaman, you will lose Ironjawz allegiance and will need to pick Destruction allegiance.

That means:

- You CAN still use the Ironfist battalion (if you have the needed units for it).

- Your Ironjawz units will stop counting as battlelines, so you'll need to pick some destruction battlelines (ogors, orruks...).

[Radken]

Is this detailed in the General's Handbook?

[thediceabide]

7 minutes ago, Radken said:

Is this detailed in the General's Handbook?

Yup, page 156-157 for Allegiances, and what counts as battleline on page 139.

[Radken]

Ok, thanks for the replies.  It still a bit confusing.  I'll see if I can wrap my head around it tonight once I'm off work.

 

My ultimate goal is to be able to use the Ironfist ability (move D6 in hero phase) combined with Destruction ability (move D6 in hero phase) while fielding mostly Ironjawaz (Brutes, Ardboys, Gore gruntas, megaboss and warchanter) with some trolls and possibly an Orruk Great Shaman and Orruk Warboss on a Wyvern.  

 

I don't want to give up on my warboss on wyvern it's the older metal cast model my first 'big' model I painted a few years back.  I also want to leave the door open for a possible arachnarok spider in the future while still maintaining those movement buffs in the hero phase.

[Lucio]

Makes sense @Radken, just means you need to include some Ogors, Greenskinz Boyz, Grots or Savage Orruks in your list if you're making it under Matched Play rules.

That said, Matched Play is totally optional, and frankly, a cool army is a cool army regardless of what these namby pamby tournament boyz fink!

[Sadysaneto]

34 minutes ago, Radken said:

Ok, thanks for the replies.  It still a bit confusing.  I'll see if I can wrap my head around it tonight once I'm off work.

 

My ultimate goal is to be able to use the Ironfist ability (move D6 in hero phase) combined with Destruction ability (move D6 in hero phase) while fielding mostly Ironjawaz (Brutes, Ardboys, Gore gruntas, megaboss and warchanter) with some trolls and possibly an Orruk Great Shaman and Orruk Warboss on a Wyvern.  

 

I don't want to give up on my warboss on wyvern it's the older metal cast model my first 'big' model I painted a few years back.  I also want to leave the door open for a possible arachnarok spider in the future while still maintaining those movement buffs in the hero phase.

Think tha way - you pledge an alliance twice.

When you build your list it can be pure ironjawz, moonclan, bonesplitaz, etc.

What you benefit from it? You get better bls.

 

Done with the list? Now you pledge an alliance in order to get access to traits, commands, artifacts and spells.

You check your army  for a shared keyword to all umits.

 

If all you units are  ironjawz, you would have ironjawz and destruction.

 

In that case you can choose from ironjawz (we dont have them, yet) or destruction.

 

If your army has ogors, ironjawz and grots, for example, the only shared keyword wpuld be destruction.

 

Hence, you could only get generic destruction traits.

[ust66]

I am not familiar with the Ironfist  battalion but if it includes the shaman and the troggoths then you do not lose the ironjawz allegiance if the battalion has the ironjawz allegiance.  The sylvaneth book has a mixed battalion of stormcast and sylvaneth units.  Since the battalion has the sylvaneth keyword the stormcasts in the battalion will gain the sylvaneth allegiance.

[Chris Tomlin]

13 hours ago, ust66 said:

I am not familiar with the Ironfist  battalion but if it includes the shaman and the troggoths then you do not lose the ironjawz allegiance if the battalion has the ironjawz allegiance. 

Nah he's talking about a complete Ironjawz Battalion, then adding the Shaman and Troggoths. Will be a cool army (love those Fellwater Troggoth models!), just needs to squeeze in 3 generic Destruction Battleline units (Ogors, Orruks, Savage Orruks, Grots) which should be doable I think!

Just the opinion of a namby pamby tournament boy though eh @Lucio...  

[Radken]

Ok so I read through the GH last night and am still not 100% clear.  It's obvious I cannot take the Ironfist Battleline since my entire army wouldn't have the 'Ironjawz' keyword.  However I would have thought with the mix or Greenskinz, Troggoths and Ironjawz since they all have the 'Destruction' keyword this would qualify me for the Destruction Allegiance Rampaging Destroyers ability and a command trait?

 

[Chris Tomlin]

1 hour ago, Radken said:

since they all have the 'Destruction' keyword this would qualify me for the Destruction Allegiance Rampaging Destroyers ability and a command trait?

Correct  

[Cowboy Boots Matt]

Quote

since they all have the 'Destruction' keyword this would qualify me for the Destruction Allegiance Rampaging Destroyers ability and a command trait?

Correct  

Not only is it correct I actually believe the strength in Destruction is in mixed lists, although I do love batteline Brutes & ard'boyz.

[Metzombie]

And you do not need to have a Ironjaw Allegiance to use the Ironfist or any other Ironjaw battalion.

[Radken]

Wait what?  I thought it was considered a battle line?

[Dez]

The Battalions don't take into consideration whether a unit is battle line or not, just that you meet the requirements. So you could take battle line Grots and then the Ironfist Battalion (which is something I'm considering).

[Radken]

So what you're saying is I can have a mixture of troggoths, greenskins, and ironjawz..I can swear allegiance to destruction alliance for the rampaging destroyers ability and take artefact from destruction AND declare an iron fist battle line for their ability so long as I have the ironjawz requirement to do so?

[Orruk]

Yes that's right. You will need the destruction battle line units: savages/boys/grots/ogors. So if it's 1000 points you need 2 units etc.

But Battalions do not require allegiances. You keep calling the "ironfist battalion" a battle line, which is the confusion I think, 

The only limitation you have is that your ironjawz units do not count as battle line (that is only possible with an iron jaws allegiance). 

[Dez]

24 minutes ago, Radken said:

So what you're saying is I can have a mixture of troggoths, greenskins, and ironjawz..I can swear allegiance to destruction alliance for the rampaging destroyers ability and take artefact from destruction AND declare an iron fist battle line for their ability so long as I have the ironjawz requirement to do so?

You got it

[Radken]

8 minutes ago, Orruk said:

Yes that's right. You will need the destruction battle line units: savages/boys/grots/ogors. So if it's 1000 points you need 2 units etc.

But Battalions do not require allegiances. You keep calling the "ironfist battalion" a battle line, which is the confusion I think, 

The only limitation you have is that your ironjawz units do not count as battle line (that is only possible with an iron jaws allegiance). 

So what is the difference then of a battalion and a battle line?

[Dez]

A Battalion is a formation, which is made up of different units and is granted special abilites.

Battle Line is a unit you need to take to fulfill your Force Organization. For example, at 1000 points you need a Hero and 2 Battle Line units.

By using all of a certain Keyword in your army building (say Ironjawz), this can unlock units as battle line.

For example, Brutes are not Battle Line if you are taking a general Destruction army (Grots, Giants, Moonclan, etc) all mixed in. If all of the units in your list composition have the keyword Ironjawz, then you can use Brutes to fulfill the Battle Line role. 

I suggest getting The General's Handbook if you haven't already

[thediceabide]

3 hours ago, Radken said:

So what you're saying is I can have a mixture of troggoths, greenskins, and ironjawz..I can swear allegiance to destruction alliance for the rampaging destroyers ability and take artefact from destruction AND declare an iron fist battle line for their ability so long as I have the ironjawz requirement to do so?

No, your Ironjawz will not be battleline, your army will not be able to claim the Ironjawz Allegiance, as the Troggoth and other Greenskins are not Ironjawz.

I think you guys are messing it up a bit. For Brutes/Ardboyz/Gore-gruntas to be Battleline, your army must have the Ironjawz Allegiance. To have the Ironjawz Allegiance your ENTIRE army has to have the Ironjawz keyword. Since the entire army lacks the Ironjawz keyword, you cannot declare an Ironjawz Allegiance, thus those Ironjawz units cannot be battleline.

If you want an Ironfist and want to mix in Troggoths and other allegiances (like Greenskins) you'll need battleline units, things like Savage Orruks, Moonclan Grots, Ogors, and other units which are battleline without any Allegiance stipulation.

That said, if you do have an IRONJAWZ allegiance, you are allowed to use Destruction allegiance abilities still, any allegiance can default to their grand alliance for their allegiance abilities (which includes artifacts).

[Orruk]

 

4 hours ago, Radken said:

So what you're saying is I can have a mixture of troggoths, greenskins, and ironjawz..I can swear allegiance to destruction alliance for the rampaging destroyers ability and take artefact from destruction AND declare an iron fist battle line for their ability so long as I have the ironjawz requirement to do so?

Hi @thediceabide

I think you misread Radken's post. He said "swear allegiance to destruction" not ironjawz. The Greenskins (which I'm assuming are boys) he has will have to be the battleline, because as you said the units in the Ironfist battalion can only be battleline with a pure ironjawz allegiance.

But yeah totally agree with what you said. I think @Radken was just getting a bit mixed up with the words battalion and battleline

[Radken]

OK ok I think you guys finally got me on the right track.  I now understand why you keep saying I need a unit of Boyz or grots etc..to conform to the pitched battle 1000 pts etc games I need 2 battle lines and if I take trolls or greenskinz hero's I negate my brutes ardboyz and gore gruntas from being battle line thus requiring a unit of orruks or grots. 

So now that I understand that thanks everyone BTW to delve a little deeper let's say I DO have all ironjawz brutes megaboss warchanter etc and I swear ironjawz allegiance so I can appease the 2 battle line minimum for a 1000pts game.  How then do I still qualify for the rampaging destroyers destruction ability?  Wouldn't that negate my ironjawz allegiance and thus making my army illegitimate?

[Dez]

No they changed it in the FAQ. So you can build your list with Ironjawz allegiance, but claim the Destruction ability at the start of the game.

[Radken]

7 hours ago, Dez said:

No they changed it in the FAQ. So you can build your list with Ironjawz allegiance, but claim the Destruction ability at the start of the game.

Is this the errata you speak of?

Page 106 – Pitched Battles, Picking Your Army Change the last paragraph to read: ‘Once you have picked your army, record the details of it on a piece of paper (your army roster). The roster must include the units in your army, details of the upgrades they have, the army’s allegiance, and must say which model in the army will be the army general. If your army includes any units that are given keywords when they are set up, such as units with a Mark of Chaos, then these must be chosen and written down when the unit is added to the roster. You must record the allegiance abilities for your army when the battle begins, before setting up your first unit. You can choose to take either the allegiance abilities for the allegiance your army belongs to, or the allegiance abilities for the Grand Alliance your army belongs to.

I still don't quite comprehend how this is legit, how can i make my list under the principal it is Ironjawz Allegiance, then come battle time say I declare allegiance to Destruction and still have valid battlelines?  I am curious how my local GW store interprets this.