Turragor Posted April 27, 2020 Author Share Posted April 27, 2020 13 hours ago, Marcvs said: Armour of Destiny I'd go for this or Mirrorshield (which is kind of in favour at the moment v flamers etc). Classics. I agree that you don't want to lose Staunch. Obsidian Amulet (4+ spell ward) can also do work. No realm artefact custom rules are harder against the factions further back in the battletome cycle - there's not much choice for us in the tome when comparing to the malign sorcery stuff. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcvs Posted April 27, 2020 Share Posted April 27, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, Turragor said: I'd go for this or Mirrorshield (which is kind of in favour at the moment v flamers etc). Classics. I agree that you don't want to lose Staunch. Obsidian Amulet (4+ spell ward) can also do work. No realm artefact custom rules are harder against the factions further back in the battletome cycle - there's not much choice for us in the tome when comparing to the malign sorcery stuff. Thanks, that's another option I hadn't considered. I think the protectin oagainst spells is sufficient already with Kroak and the Incantor scroll-panic button. Without ignax I am really concerned about units able to generate MW on 6s, so the Mirrorshield at least takes care of the shooting ones (of course, not of the MWs generated on natural 6s to hit...). In fact, when playing against Seraphon last week, 30 buffed skinks would have killed the Stardrake in 2 rounds of shooting without the Ignax -luckily their buff pieces were gone by t2 anyway. Still, I would so much trade 15 liberators for 50 skinks (unbuffed) Also agree with the importance of Staunch. In fact, I think it's the only thing keeping me from playing this in GA:Order Edited April 27, 2020 by Marcvs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcvs Posted April 28, 2020 Share Posted April 28, 2020 OK, I think I will also try downgrading the incantor to exorcist -in recent games that scroll was never important- in order to include a balewind vortex in place of the quicksilver swords. It's a great complement to Kroak. I have tested it in one game and felt good, although the game itself was... not great, having taken a warp lighting vortex straight in the face from a t1 alpha strike of KO Zilfin 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naem Posted April 30, 2020 Share Posted April 30, 2020 So here are my takes on some Starcast Combos: My favorite right now is the Starballistas -> Allegiance: OrderLeadersCelestant-Prime (340)Lord-Celestant on Stardrake (500)- Celestine HammerKnight-Incantor (140)Lord-Castellant (120)Lord-Ordinator (140)Battleline5 x Liberators (100)- Warhammer & Shield5 x Liberators (100)- Warhammer & Shield5 x Liberators (100)- Warhammer & ShieldArtilleryCelestar Ballista (110)Celestar Ballista (110)Celestar Ballista (110)Endless Spells / Terrain / CPsEverblaze Comet (100)Prismatic Palisade (30)Total: 2000 / 2000Extra Command Points: 0Allies: 0 / 400Wounds: 91 The other one are Starkitties -> Allegiance: OrderLeadersCelestant-Prime (340)Lord-Celestant on Stardrake (500)- Celestine HammerLord-Castellant (120)Lord-Exorcist (120)Battleline5 x Liberators (100)- Warhammer & Shield5 x Liberators (100)- Warhammer & Shield5 x Liberators (100)- Warhammer & ShieldUnits6 x Evocators on Dracolines (520)Endless Spells / Terrain / CPsEverblaze Comet (100)Total: 2000 / 2000Extra Command Points: 0Allies: 0 / 400Wounds: 95 Esp. the last one has quite a good win/lose ratio for my standards 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turragor Posted April 30, 2020 Author Share Posted April 30, 2020 Nice, I'll add a few more to the first post so interested Stormcast players have more options 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcvs Posted May 2, 2020 Share Posted May 2, 2020 (edited) hi all! I took part in another tournament on TTS (this one organised by the Troll Slayers club of Plymouth). I brought a slight variation of StormKroak: Spoiler Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals- Mortal Realm: AqshyLEADERSLord-Celestant on Stardrake (500)- General - Command Trait : Staunch Defender - Celestine Hammer - Artefact : Ignax's ScalesDrakesworn Templar (420)- Tempest Axe - Mount Trait : Storm-wingedLord-Castellant (120) Lord-Exorcist (120)- Spell : Chain LightningLord Kroak (320)- AlliesUNITS5 x Liberators (100)- Warhammer & Shield - 1 x Grandhammers5 x Liberators (100)- Warhammer & Shield - 1 x Grandhammers5 x Liberators (100)- Warhammer & Shield - 1 x GrandhammersENDLESS SPELLS / TERRAIN / COMMAND POINTSEverblaze Comet (100) Umbral Spellportal (70) Balewind Vortex (40) This time the result was less good (1-0-2) but I got the impression that the participants were much more experienced players than the one I played a few weeks ago. Also, on game 3 I got a killer matchup vs 36 troggoths + troggboss =_= Plus, the pack had 0 hero-based battleplans. I'll add a few scsreenshots in the coming days (and am as always available to discuss this or if you have questions!), but games were: 1. vs Fyreslayers (3x20 bersekers etc) in Battle for the Pass. The opponent was the captain of the Finnish team at the ETC and yet the game was very tight, thanks to killing his small heroes (insert meme here) and tanking 40 bersekers for 3 turns with the celestant. When time was up he was killing the said celestant so I just conceded. 2.vs Tzeentch (but with Archaon, Chaos warriors and screamers) in Better Part of Valour. This is always one the hardest battleplans for me (and, I think, for this list). Still, it brought me my only victory (and a major one), because Archaon didn't manage to slayer of kings the Celestant on t1 and then I had killed all the screamers and small heroes, proceeding to dance around with the dragons + burning his objectives paradropping the libs. Wouldn't have bet on this. 3.vs Gloomspite Gitz (YAY I thought... and then saw the list: 36 troggoths 😮 ) in Total Conquest. Far from a perfect match on my side, but still I don't think this was winnable. The FNP, regeneration and high wound per model completely counters the main damage mechanism of the list. (no screenshots here) Aaanyway, the real point of my post -which probably I shouldn't have hidden under a ton of text- is that the Honest Wargamer has kind of covered the tournament by having the organiser in his stream, and they went through all the lists so also StormKroak had its moment in the sun (starting from min 58) https://www.twitch.tv/videos/608964773 Edited May 4, 2020 by Marcvs 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turragor Posted May 3, 2020 Author Share Posted May 3, 2020 15 hours ago, Marcvs said: hi all! I took part in another tournament on TTS (this one organised by the Troll Slayers club of Plymouth). I brought a slight variation of StormKroak: Hide contents Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals- Mortal Realm: AqshyLEADERSLord-Celestant on Stardrake (500)- General - Command Trait : Staunch Defender - Celestine Hammer - Artefact : Ignax's ScalesDrakesworn Templar (420)- Tempest Axe - Mount Trait : Storm-wingedLord-Castellant (120) Lord-Exorcist (120)- Spell : Chain LightningLord Kroak (320)- AlliesUNITS5 x Liberators (100)- Warhammer & Shield - 1 x Grandhammers5 x Liberators (100)- Warhammer & Shield - 1 x Grandhammers5 x Liberators (100)- Warhammer & Shield - 1 x GrandhammersENDLESS SPELLS / TERRAIN / COMMAND POINTSEverblaze Comet (100) Umbral Spellportal (70) Balewind Vortex (40) This time the result was less good (1-0-2) but I got the impression that the participants were much more experienced players than the one I played a few weeks ago. Also, on game 3 I got a killer matchup vs 36 troggoths + troggboss =_= Plus, the pack had 0 hero-based battleplans. I'll add a few scsreenshots in the coming days (and am as always available to discuss this or if you have questions!), but games were: vs Fyreslayers (3x20 bersekers etc) in Battle for the Pass. The opponent was the captain of the Finnish team at the ETC and yet the game was very tight, thanks to killing his small heroes (insert meme here) and tanking 40 bersekers for 3 turns with the celestant. When time was up he was killing the said celestant so I just conceded. vs Tzeentch (but with Archaon, Chaos warriors and screamers) in Better Part of Valour. This is always one the hardest battleplans for me (and, I think, for this list). Still, it brought me my only victory (and a major one), because Archaon didn't manage to slayer of kings the Celestant on t1 and then I had killed all the screamers and small heroes, proceeding to dance around with the dragons + burning his objectives paradropping the libs. Wouldn't have bet on this. vs Gloomspite Gitz (YAY I thought... and then saw the list: 36 troggoths 😮 ) in Total Conquest. Far from a perfect match on my side, but still I don't think this was winnable. The FNP, regeneration and high wound per model completely counters the main damage mechanism of the list. Aaanyway, the real point of my post -which probably I shouldn't have hidden under a ton of text- is that the Honest Wargamer has kind of covered the tournament by having the organiser in his stream, and they went through all the lists so also StormKroak had its moment in the sun (starting from min 58) https://www.twitch.tv/videos/608964773 Awesome! Fyreslayers are tough and I think that troggoth list is precisely what starcast has issues with What changes would you make to the list with your experience so far (I've yet to play with covid about)? Would you try a non starcast sce list against the same opponents you had? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcvs Posted May 4, 2020 Share Posted May 4, 2020 21 hours ago, Turragor said: Awesome! Fyreslayers are tough and I think that troggoth list is precisely what starcast has issues with What changes would you make to the list with your experience so far (I've yet to play with covid about)? Would you try a non starcast sce list against the same opponents you had? Ok so, as always considerations coming from a limited experience, both as a player and with Starcast (the two virtually coincide ) 1) Minor things that I can actually adress within the limits of the bt: I think the umbral spellportal didn't add a lot to the army. Of course it avoids wasting 1 or 2 spells in t1 with Kroak if you are going first, but 70 points for d3 MW (often you can't hit more than one interesting target) is maybe too expensive? (especially in the new version of the list, where I take the balewind vortex). The real "bottleneck", apart of course from the general weakness of SCE atm, which I felt was the lack of bodies for grabbing/holding objectives and screening. I would *love* to have at least a battleline with 10 bodies for 100 points (more on this in part 3). So, the points for the umbral spellportal might go into 10 skinks just for that (plus bringing back the incantor). It's one more drop but with the present 8 I never outdropped my opponent in 9 games between tournaments and league. 2) Would I try another sce list against the same opponents? On tts I have also experimented with a cavalry-heavy list (celestial vindicators, desolators, palladors). Fun and potentially hard hitting but it is clear to me that it would have struggled enormously against the lists which I have met. Without killing the heroes, Fyreslayers would have melted them and without kroak and the comet, magic heavy armies would also have been devastating. I really cannot see how a melee-oriented sce army could be even remotely viable at the moment. Then again, the only fair comparison would be with the shootcast competitive list and here I can't really comment. I have tried it a few times before switching to starcast (because I didn't like the playstyle) so I don't have sufficient experience. My feeling is that, keeping me as the general, the final result would have been similar. It might have done better in some matchups where concentrated fire was needed (those troggoths...), but also struggled more against others. At least in one of the tournaments shootcast was well represented, with two lists, and did worse than me. In the UK one however I was the only SCE player, as the composition was generally quite meta-oriented 3) Brainstorming bigger changes: I have been considering of running the list outside of SCE and in GA:Order. In the end there are two things that I get from the BT: 1) staunch defender and 2) scions of the storm for the liberators, the rest is straight warscrolls. Number 2 can be addressed with 2 units of shadow warriors (or tree revenants, or chameleon skinks), number 1 is trickier... An ethereal amulet can be an alternative, but then I can only get a 6+ FNP from the command trait, resulting in a much less survivable drake (losing also the healing from the lantern, so maybe worth it to include some healing?). Plus, the shadow warriors not being battleline come at the cost of the comet, so yeah, might ultimately be less viable but at least I would have 50 bodies to throw around. Anyway, here's a rough draft. PS: comparing other battleline options in order (even arkanauts!!) really puts liberators to shame Spoiler Allegiance: OrderMortal Realm: ShyishLord-Celestant on Stardrake (500)- General- Celestine Hammer- Command Trait: Master of Defense- Artefact: Ethereal Amulet Drakesworn Templar (420)- Tempest AxeLord Kroak (320)Saurus Astrolith Bearer (140)10 x Saurus Warriors (90)- Clubs10 x Freeguild Handgunners (100)10 x Arkanaut Company (90)- 1x Skypikes- 1x Light Skyhooks- 1x Aethermatic Volley Guns10 x Shadow Warriors (110)10 x Shadow Warriors (110)Balewind Vortex (40)Umbral Spellportal (70)Total: 1990 / 2000Extra Command Points: 0Allies: 0 / 400Wounds: 95 Also adding some screenshots in my previous post right now! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turragor Posted May 4, 2020 Author Share Posted May 4, 2020 6 minutes ago, Marcvs said: Ok so, as always considerations coming from a limited experience, both as a player and with Starcast (the two virtually coincide ) 1) Minor things that I can actually adress within the limits of the bt: I think the umbral spellportal didn't add a lot to the army. Of course it avoids wasting 1 or 2 spells in t1 with Kroak if you are going first, but 70 points for d3 MW (often you can't hit more than one interesting target) is maybe too expensive? (especially in the new version of the list, where I take the balewind vortex). The real "bottleneck", apart of course from the general weakness of SCE atm, which I felt was the lack of bodies for grabbing/holding objectives and screening. I would *love* to have at least a battleline with 10 bodies for 100 points (more on this in part 3). So, the points for the umbral spellportal might go into 10 skinks just for that (plus bringing back the incantor). It's one more drop but with the present 8 I never outdropped my opponent in 9 games between tournaments and league. 2) Would I try another sce list against the same opponents? On tts I have also experimented with a cavalry-heavy list (celestial vindicators, desolators, palladors). Fun and potentially hard hitting but it is clear to me that it would have struggled enormously against the lists which I have met. Without killing the heroes, Fyreslayers would have melted them and without kroak and the comet, magic heavy armies would also have been devastating. I really cannot see how a melee-oriented sce army could be even remotely viable at the moment. Then again, the only fair comparison would be with the shootcast competitive list and here I can't really comment. I have tried it a few times before switching to starcast (because I didn't like the playstyle) so I don't have sufficient experience. My feeling is that, keeping me as the general, the final result would have been similar. It might have done better in some matchups where concentrated fire was needed (those troggoths...), but also struggled more against others. At least in one of the tournaments shootcast was well represented, with two lists, and did worse than me. In the UK one however I was the only SCE player, as the composition was generally quite meta-oriented 3) Brainstorming bigger changes: I have been considering of running the list outside of SCE and in GA:Order. In the end there are two things that I get from the BT: 1) staunch defender and 2) scions of the storm for the liberators, the rest is straight warscrolls. Number 2 can be addressed with 2 units of shadow warriors (or tree revenants, or chameleon skinks), number 1 is trickier... An ethereal amulet can be an alternative, but then I can only get a 6+ FNP from the command trait, resulting in a much less survivable drake (losing also the healing from the lantern, so maybe worth it to include some healing?). Plus, the shadow warriors not being battleline come at the cost of the comet, so yeah, might ultimately be less viable but at least I would have 50 bodies to throw around. Anyway, here's a rough draft. PS: comparing other battleline options in order (even arkanauts!!) really puts liberators to shame Hide contents Allegiance: OrderMortal Realm: ShyishLord-Celestant on Stardrake (500)- General- Celestine Hammer- Command Trait: Master of Defense- Artefact: Ethereal Amulet Drakesworn Templar (420)- Tempest AxeLord Kroak (320)Saurus Astrolith Bearer (140)10 x Saurus Warriors (90)- Clubs10 x Freeguild Handgunners (100)10 x Arkanaut Company (90)- 1x Skypikes- 1x Light Skyhooks- 1x Aethermatic Volley Guns10 x Shadow Warriors (110)10 x Shadow Warriors (110)Balewind Vortex (40)Umbral Spellportal (70)Total: 1990 / 2000Extra Command Points: 0Allies: 0 / 400Wounds: 95 Also adding some screenshots in my previous post right now! I like this idea. I know its no longer starcast as its not SCE but I always thought of starcast as the method of playing the cool SC models rather than a pure SC army. Ofc Stormcast need that also but I mean if someone (me) has 3 stardrakes they want to use them, even if they step outside the faction. Its a sad judgement of the faction but thats nothing new or interesting to discuss. I'm up for "honourary" starcast lists from that perspective. That said, I really miss the healing drake combo (which needs staunch) and the comet. So you've replaced deepstriking libs (for my money) but alas they're not battleline. So a bit less efficient. Castellant Healing - there is probably a mage or priest with a d3 heal you could make use of but that may fizzle and not add the extra save (but ethereal mitigates and renders save bonus obsolete). What about mulitple healing warscrolls? Thats probably too much focus on the drake health... Hmm I think there's legs but I also have this feeling that the SC Kroakcast list can probably do better. I agree with what Rob said - it's not going to win tournaments but it is its own sick fun against some buff combo lists. And I am 80% sure it will do as well as Shootcast (though each have strengths and weaknesses) against a random field. Bring on the next SC tome and we'll not need to try to squeeze more out of the starcast approach (though there will probably be an heir to the throne - anything that focuses on dragons and comets). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcvs Posted May 4, 2020 Share Posted May 4, 2020 4 hours ago, Turragor said: I like this idea. I know its no longer starcast as its not SCE but I always thought of starcast as the method of playing the cool SC models rather than a pure SC army. Ofc Stormcast need that also but I mean if someone (me) has 3 stardrakes they want to use them, even if they step outside the faction. Its a sad judgement of the faction but thats nothing new or interesting to discuss. I'm up for "honourary" starcast lists from that perspective. That said, I really miss the healing drake combo (which needs staunch) and the comet. So you've replaced deepstriking libs (for my money) but alas they're not battleline. So a bit less efficient. Castellant Healing - there is probably a mage or priest with a d3 heal you could make use of but that may fizzle and not add the extra save (but ethereal mitigates and renders save bonus obsolete). What about mulitple healing warscrolls? Thats probably too much focus on the drake health... Hmm I think there's legs but I also have this feeling that the SC Kroakcast list can probably do better. I agree with what Rob said - it's not going to win tournaments but it is its own sick fun against some buff combo lists. And I am 80% sure it will do as well as Shootcast (though each have strengths and weaknesses) against a random field. Bring on the next SC tome and we'll not need to try to squeeze more out of the starcast approach (though there will probably be an heir to the throne - anything that focuses on dragons and comets). Agree with your point on the general idea: it's a fun list, you get to play with dragons, and I am really happy to play it in tournaments (I will bring it to another one in two weeks ). Also, I always give you full credits for coming up with this And yes, good point on still paying a tax, this time for deepstriking My next thought experiment is with Cities, but there you lose Kroak. Hallowheart might be interesting as a replacement (and they have a d6 healing spell + the possibility to take ignax) but then no deepstriking. Otherwise Living City: they have a command trait which can replace staunch for the dragon and deepstriking (and a little automatic healing), but magic is not up to Kroak standards. In both cases it will be hard to include the incantor+ comet if I want 2 dragons and the castellant, so I would lose both comets I'll try to see if I can come up with something worth discssing! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turragor Posted May 4, 2020 Author Share Posted May 4, 2020 17 minutes ago, Marcvs said: Agree with your point on the general idea: it's a fun list, you get to play with dragons, and I am really happy to play it in tournaments (I will bring it to another one in two weeks ). Also, I always give you full credits for coming up with this And yes, good point on still paying a tax, this time for deepstriking My next thought experiment is with Cities, but there you lose Kroak. Hallowheart might be interesting as a replacement (and they have a d6 healing spell + the possibility to take ignax) but then no deepstriking. Otherwise Living City: they have a command trait which can replace staunch for the dragon and deepstriking (and a little automatic healing), but magic is not up to Kroak standards. In both cases it will be hard to include the incantor+ comet if I want 2 dragons and the castellant, so I would lose both comets I'll try to see if I can come up with something worth discssing! haha yes! I still think I could have won that game but I got "stage paralysis" with my decision making On watching the replay, the path to victory was obvious (given gotrek is so slow) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maturin Posted May 4, 2020 Share Posted May 4, 2020 Playing cities of Sigmar with a lot of SCE units is unfeasible! Unless you go back to 10 pages ago and go for one of the list I theorycrafted ;). But you need money! A lot of money! Hint : Lots of Gyrocopters ! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maturin Posted May 4, 2020 Share Posted May 4, 2020 I'd like to try something like that one day :Allegiance: Stormcast EternalsMortal Realm: UlguDrakesworn Templar (420)- General- Tempest Axe- Command Trait: Staunch Defender - Artefact: Sword of Judgement - Mount Trait: Storm-wingedLord-Celestant (100) Doppleganger cloack or artifact on castellantLord-Castellant (120) Talisman of the watcherKnight-Incantor (140)5 x Judicators (160)- Boltstorm Crossbows- 1x Thunderbolt Crossbows5 x Judicators (160)- Boltstorm Crossbows- 1x Thunderbolt Crossbows5 x Liberators (100)- Warhammer & Shield5 x Liberators (100)- Warhammer & Shield5 x Decimators (180)- 2x Starsoul Maces5 x Protectors (180)- 2x Starsoul MacesSkyborne Slayers (190)Everblaze Comet (100)Extra Command Point (50)Total: 2000 / 2000Extra Command Points: 2Allies: 0 / 400Wounds: 102 Ulgu is one of the best realm for artifacts geared toward attack! Lots of combinations possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcvs Posted May 4, 2020 Share Posted May 4, 2020 (edited) 20 minutes ago, Maturin said: Playing cities of Sigmar with a lot of SCE units is unfeasible! Unless you go back to 10 pages ago and go for one of the list I theorycrafted ;). But you need money! A lot of money! Hint : Lots of Gyrocopters ! Yeah, difficult. I mean, 1 dragon + castellant is feasible, maybe even incantor too but then you must have a lot of handgunners MSU... And: ah, Skyborne Slayers, if only any unit in that battallion was remotely decent Edited May 4, 2020 by Marcvs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maturin Posted May 4, 2020 Share Posted May 4, 2020 1 minute ago, Marcvs said: Yeah, difficult. I mean, 1 dragon + castellant is feasible, maybe even incantor too but then you must have a lot of handgunners MSU They won't be effective they need a general + Hurricanum and will die like a breeze. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcvs Posted May 4, 2020 Share Posted May 4, 2020 12 minutes ago, Maturin said: They won't be effective they need a general + Hurricanum and will die like a breeze. yeah, I am coming to the same conclusion. I mean, a completely different list (including a templar and dracoths maybe) seems feasible, but no starcast lookalike 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turragor Posted May 4, 2020 Author Share Posted May 4, 2020 1 hour ago, Maturin said: I'd like to try something like that one day :Allegiance: Stormcast EternalsMortal Realm: UlguDrakesworn Templar (420)- General- Tempest Axe- Command Trait: Staunch Defender - Artefact: Sword of Judgement - Mount Trait: Storm-wingedLord-Celestant (100) Doppleganger cloack or artifact on castellantLord-Castellant (120) Talisman of the watcherKnight-Incantor (140)5 x Judicators (160)- Boltstorm Crossbows- 1x Thunderbolt Crossbows5 x Judicators (160)- Boltstorm Crossbows- 1x Thunderbolt Crossbows5 x Liberators (100)- Warhammer & Shield5 x Liberators (100)- Warhammer & Shield5 x Decimators (180)- 2x Starsoul Maces5 x Protectors (180)- 2x Starsoul MacesSkyborne Slayers (190)Everblaze Comet (100)Extra Command Point (50)Total: 2000 / 2000Extra Command Points: 2Allies: 0 / 400Wounds: 102 Ulgu is one of the best realm for artifacts geared toward attack! Lots of combinations possible. Something like this is worth a try you know. I have said this a bunch of times, and it's not just starcast specific, not Stormcast specific. It's the propensity for ppl to tweak a list before they learn to play it more. Like I still have a lot to learn playing the basic starcast list. The Kroakcast list would be sufficiently different that I'm back to a beginner level (ish). This philosophy has been the main driving force behind my pursuit of starcast lists in 2019 (and starcasts inspiration list the year before) - results get better the more you play. Ofc that means in theory you'll still lose to someone who knows a list as well as you do when that list is better in the meta. That's not a concern I have as I paint so slow I never build meta lists 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maturin Posted May 4, 2020 Share Posted May 4, 2020 48 minutes ago, Marcvs said: yeah, I am coming to the same conclusion. I mean, a completely different list (including a templar and dracoths maybe) seems feasible, but no starcast lookalike Templar + Dracoth would be totally fine in a Living City list. The only problem I see is that a competent player with a horde list could deny you entry by the rear and side, or at least not his side. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcvs Posted May 4, 2020 Share Posted May 4, 2020 11 minutes ago, Maturin said: Templar + Dracoth would be totally fine in a Living City list. The only problem I see is that a competent player with a horde list could deny you entry by the rear and side, or at least not his side. Sure. The overarching problem(s) is that I cannot see how SCE melee can be viable against the armies which seem to populate the meat atm: they either have plenty of screening (seraphon, tzeentch) which we can't jump or go through with double activation, or they are just much killier (Fyreslayers, Morteks) and/or can fight first /make our unit fight last Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
readercolin Posted May 4, 2020 Share Posted May 4, 2020 I think you might be underselling starcast in the cities. Lets go look again at what is the "Core" of a starcast list: Stardrake Stardrake or Celestant Prime Armor Buff/Healing (castellent) Extra mortal wounds (stardrake, prime, incantor+comet, kroak) Lets look at what you can do with this in the cities: Running either 2 drakes or drake + prime is relatively easy, as you only need 6 non-stormcast units to do so. Grab a few MSU's and you are fine. Extra mortal wounds? Easy enough to do in some cities (looking at you hallowheart), but more difficult in others, and you don't need to grab another stormcast model to do so. For buffing armor, the problem is that generally you want to get a +2, and that is much more difficult without bringing a castellent. Yes, a few cities have ways to get +1 save, and a few others have healing spells, and all of them have access to empowered Emerald Lifeswarm. However only the Living City has access to both, and it makes up for that by not having much in the way of good offensive spells to put out mortal wounds. And there is no way to get a +2 without bringing the Castellent. So lets take the cheapest "core" of a starcast army that fills all the slots with stormcast units, and see if we need to start making cuts. Drakesworn Templar Celestant Prime Lord-Castellent Knight-Incantor Everblaze Comet This right here is 1120 points, and 4 stormcast units. To field this, we now need to field 3 battleline units, and more importantly - 12 cities units. Is this possible? Kinda. The first place to look is the cheapest battleline unit available - Scourgerunner Chariots. We can field 11 of these and 1 black ark fleetmaster as the general and now we have an army at 1840 points. But wait... some of the cities require us to run the stardrake as the general to get a +1 save. Can we still do that? Yes. We can field 9 scourgerunner chariots and 3 groups of freeguild guard and we are now at 1900 points. Alternatively, Stormcast are humans, so you can replace the guard with flagellents as they are battleline with human generals. I would say at this point, you probably have a better starcast list than stormcast can field, because you have more bodies to hold objectives, still have the core killing power of the starcast list, AND you have 9 units for screening. Just don't ever expect to be able to dictate who gets to go first. So lets see what this first Cities Starcast list looks like: Lord-Celestant on Stardrake General Celestant Prime Lord-Castellent Knight-Incantor 8x 1 Scourgerunner Chariots 4x 10 Freeguild Guard Sword+shield Everblaze Comet Ok, now, lets say that we are willing to make a cut, and strip the Lord-Castellent from the army. After all, we have other ways to heal. Now we only have 3 stormcast units, so only need 9 non-stormcast units. How can we make this work? First off, we want a battlemage/sorceress or two, because we need them to cast our heals. Then, lets grab the Emerald Lifeswarm, because you can never go wrong with that. Then lets fill out the rest of the list with MSU freeguild guard and see what is left. Drakesworn Templar Celestant Prime Knight-Incantor Battlemage Battlemage 7x 10 Freeguild Guard Everblaze Comet Emerald Lifeswarm This puts us at 1790 points, leaving 210 points to either swap the guard out for other units, or uprgrade the templar to a celestant/swap the celestant prime out for another templar. Personally, I kind of like the following: Drakesworn Templar Celestant Prime Knight-Incantor Battlemage Battlemage Freeguild General 1x 20 Freeguild Guard 2x 10 Freeguild Guard 3x 10 Handgunners Everblaze Comet Emerald Lifeswarm Command Point However, at this point you also have to ask - do you really need the comet? Don't get me wrong, the comet is a powerful spell. But, cities can stick an Umbral Spellportal down anywhere on the board, and then throw a high-impact spell through it. And going down to just 2 stormcast units (say a pair of stardrakes) means that you only need to field 6 more units, which is pretty easy to do. Especially helpful here would be to go with 2 Stardrakes + hurricanum, and then a battlemage or 3. Each stardrake and the hurricanum all add +1 to cast for battlemages, so you can be in literally any city and have a +3 to cast. Go hallowheart and grab the battalion and you are at a +4 before using a command point - cast literally whatever you want. Here is a solid army that will play out similarly to a starcast list: Drakesworn Templar Drakesworn Templar Celestial Hurricanum Battlemage Battlemage 1x 20 Freeguild Guard 2x 10 Handgunners 2x 10 Shadow Warriors Umbral Spellportal Penumbral Pendulum Here you have the 2 stardrakes spewing out some mortal wounds, and each battlemage gets a +3 to cast. Spellportal + Pendulum operates similarly to the comet, but also gives you some other options for spells to cast through as well. The guard and handgunners are there to screen and fill battleline requirements, while the shadow warriors can come down and take objectives later. Taking this as a Living City force is going to give you the strongest mix for defense, as you get a healing spell and one of your drakes can get a +1 to its save. Offensively, Hallowheart gives you a lot more bang for your buck, as each of your 3 wizards gets 2 spells apiece and you get a healing spell as well, however there is no + save available in hallowheart. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcvs Posted May 5, 2020 Share Posted May 5, 2020 (edited) 11 hours ago, readercolin said: I think you might be underselling starcast in the cities. Lets go look again at what is the "Core" of a starcast list: Thanks for all your ideas! Still, accepting that the magic output will replace the comet, it all comes down to trading Kroak for more bodies on the board, and I could do it in a SCE list with something like Spoiler Allegiance: Stormcast EternalsMortal Realm: AqshyLord-Celestant on Stardrake (500)- General- Celestine Hammer- Command Trait: Staunch Defender - Artefact: Ignax's Scales Drakesworn Templar (420)- Tempest Axe- Mount Trait: Storm-wingedLord-Castellant (120)Lord-Exorcist (120)- Spell: Chain LightningRunelord (90)- Allies5 x Liberators (100)- Warhammer & Shield- 1x Grandhammers5 x Liberators (100)- Warhammer & Shield- 1x Grandhammers5 x Liberators (100)- Warhammer & Shield- 1x Grandhammers10 x Skinks (60)- Meteoric Javelins Celestite Daggers & Star Bucklers- Allies10 x Skinks (60)- Meteoric Javelins Celestite Daggers & Star Bucklers- Allies5 x Chameleon Skinks (90)- Allies5 x Chameleon Skinks (90)- AlliesEverblaze Comet (100)Balewind Vortex (40)Total: 1990 / 2000Extra Command Points: 0Allies: 390 / 400Wounds: 108 Ok now that I wrote this down I almost want to try it Well, next tournament will have 1500 lists + 3 500 points sideboards so I will be sharing my thoughts on these soon! Edited May 5, 2020 by Marcvs 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maturin Posted May 5, 2020 Share Posted May 5, 2020 I think you should try the chameleon skinks if that makes you able to squeeze in the vortex. 17 hours ago, Marcvs said: yeah, I am coming to the same conclusion. I mean, a completely different list (including a templar and dracoths maybe) seems feasible, but no starcast lookalike Templar + Dracoth would be totally fine in a Living City list. The only problem I see is that a competent player with a horde list could deny you entry by the rear and side, or at least not his side. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcvs Posted May 5, 2020 Share Posted May 5, 2020 Just now, Maturin said: I think you should try the chameleon skinks if that makes you able to squeeze in the vortex. Yes, I just edited the list in this sense! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcvs Posted May 5, 2020 Share Posted May 5, 2020 (edited) Sooo, as I said in the post above, next tournament on TTS will have 1500 points lists with 3 x 500 sideboards to choose from after seeing the pairings (there's also a +/- 50 pts flexibility, so you can have 1450 point in the "core" and up to 550 in the sideboards). This is the "core" (1460 pts) I have come up with Spoiler Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals- Mortal Realm: AqshyLEADERSDrakesworn Templar (420)- Tempest Axe - Mount Trait : Storm-wingedLord-Castellant (120) Lord-Celestant on Stardrake (500)- General - Command Trait : Staunch Defender - Celestine Hammer - Artefact : Ignax's ScalesLord-Exorcist (120)- Spell : Chain LightningUNITS5 x Liberators (100)- Warhammer & Shield - 1 x Grandhammers5 x Liberators (100)- Warhammer & Shield - 1 x GrandhammersENDLESS SPELLS / TERRAIN / COMMAND POINTSEverblaze Comet (100) Now the options. I've come up with 5 different ideas and I can only bring 3. I still think I will run the "standard" list (i.e. Kroak) in all the games, so maybe I should opt for those sideboards which can cause more confusion to the opponent? Sideboard 1) Of course this is the standard list with Kroak Spoiler LEADERSLord Kroak (320)- AlliesUNITS5 x Liberators (100)- Warhammer & Shield - 1 x GrandhammersENDLESS SPELLS / TERRAIN / COMMAND POINTSBalewind Vortex (40) Umbral Spellportal (70) Sideboard 2) This is the Starcast with the Celestant Prime + TootToot Spoiler LEADERSCelestant-Prime (340) Knight-Heraldor (100)UNITS5 x Liberators (100)- Warhammer & Shield - 1 x Grandhammers Sideboard 3) brings lizard bodies for help with numbers and deepstriking (plus a runelord to dispel the comet) Spoiler Runelord (90)- AlliesUNITS5 x Liberators (100)- Warhammer & Shield - 1 x Grandhammers10 x Skinks (60)- Boltspitters Celestite Daggers & Star Bucklers - Allies10 x Skinks (60)- Boltspitters Celestite Daggers & Star Bucklers - Allies5 x Chameleon Skinks (90)- Allies5 x Chameleon Skinks (90)- AlliesENDLESS SPELLS / TERRAIN / COMMAND POINTSBalewind Vortex (40) Sideboards 4) and 5) bringing some shooting (5 would be using the hurricanes and aetherwings to deepstrike, 4 would have all the liberators in deepstrike instead) Spoiler UNITS6 x Vanguard-Raptors with Longstrike Crossbows (340) 3 x Aetherwings (50) 3 x Aetherwings (50) 5 x Liberators (100)- Warhammer & Shield - 1 x Grandhammers Spoiler UNITS3 x Aetherwings (50) 3 x Aetherwings (50) 6 x Vanguard-Raptors with Hurricane Crossbows (280) 5 x Liberators (100)- Warhammer & Shield - 1 x GrandhammersENDLESS SPELLS / TERRAIN / COMMAND POINTSBalewind Vortex (40) Ok that's all I can come up with for now. All comments are welcome! Btw, on this "sideboard" idea: I have got the feeling that this will help more already "stronger" battletomes, which 1) have more good tools to choose from and 2) wouldn't normally prepare for playing against Starcast (not a meta list, to use an euphemism) but will now get the occasion to tailor their list a bit better (e.g. taking a MawCrusha instead of ardboyz + buffs), whereas "weaker" battletomes generally only have a handful of viable lists anyway. Just my first impression, of course. Edited May 5, 2020 by Marcvs 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turragor Posted May 5, 2020 Author Share Posted May 5, 2020 2 hours ago, Marcvs said: Btw, on this "sideboard" idea: I have got the feeling that this will help more already "stronger" battletomes, which 1) have more good tools to choose from and 2) wouldn't normally prepare for playing against Starcast (not a meta list, to use an euphemism) but will now get the occasion to tailor their list a bit better (e.g. taking a MawCrusha instead of ardboyz + buffs), whereas "weaker" battletomes generally only have a handful of viable lists anyway. Just my first impression, of course. I love the sideboard idea in general but think you are right. I think it also punishes SC to an extent because we're so points dense we can't have an entirely different flavour of army by swapping 500 points in and out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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