AoS 2 - Ossiarch Bonereapers Discussion

[rattila]

Truth is the soulreaper doesnt offer much. A good attack, yeah, but that is not what you want from a wizard hero in the first place. And a spell who just does damage. A the same price you can have a boneshaper (and there is nothing wrong with having 2, 3, 4 boneshaper) or un ossifector (who can take the gothizzar cartouche). Si really, no reason to take the soulreaper, and that is sad.

[RocketPropelledGrenade]

25 minutes ago, Flippy said:

But the context is different in OBR, as you have very strong named characters to use. If you play smaller games (1000, 1500) and start with Arkhan, you need a cheap heroes to carry trait and artefact - and if the Liege-Kavalos is too expensive, the Soulreaper for 120 may be just what you need.

I can see that, but with the Arcane Tome nerf and the mixed bag that is OBR artifacts, you've got to think carefully about what you are sacrificing just to get stuff. The command traits are great, but there aren't many I'd put on a Soulreaper. And Boneshapers (as has been already noted) have the same cost and a better artifact choice and warscroll.

Now, don't get me wrong--I want the Soulreaper to be good. It's cool as heck! But I just don't see it.

[Sception]

even if you needed a 120 point hero to hold an artefact, why wouldn't you go with a boneshaper, who costs the same, provides the same one heal, but also has a valuable healing ability /and/ access to a better artefact?

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

I think we can stop bullying the Soulreaper now, guys.

Here is a picture of my Soulreaper instead. He's a very special boy and I love him very much.

[Sception]

Frist draft crematorians list

• 370 arkhan
• 120 shaper, key
• 180 liege, general, -3 charge aura
• 210 harvester
• 450 30 morteks, spears
• 300 20 morteks, swords
• 200 3 immortis
• 170 5 deathriders

I like it, but I really want to get some of the endless spells in there and I don't see what to drop.  Maybe trade liege for a second shaper?

Edited April 9, 2023 by Sception

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

3 minutes ago, Sception said:

Frist draft crematorians list

• 370 arkhan
• 120 shaper, general, show of superiority
• 180 liege
• 210 harvester
• 450 30 morteks, spears
• 300 20 morteks, swords
• 200 3 immortis
• 170 5 deathriders

I like it, but I really want to get some of the endless spells in there and I don't see what to drop.

It's hard since you are at 2000 on the dot. Dropping the harvester for 10 more Mortek would free up 60 points, I guess. I like the list better as it is , though.

[Flippy]

I can see that the Ossifector and the Boneshaper may be more useful. As for the Ossifector - I will not take him just for the cartouche; there has to be something to buff, and these pieces are tough to fit into smaller lists. The Boneshaper is an obvious choice if you want more resurrection on top of Arkhan (the spell is also good) - but if you prefer more punch, the Soulreaper’s 5 attacks 2+ (3+ with nadirite = 2+)/3+/-2/2 are solid. As for the artefacts, I really like the Helm of Tyrrany, which only makes sense on melee heroes.

The traits… Show of Superiority and Diversionary Tactics fit him very well - as long as there are Immortis Guards around, but that is kind of obvious.

[Sception]

I like the idea of the ossifector, but the mechanics just not doing it for me.  The buff to the catapult is ok... but the catapults damage is /so low/ for its cost that it just isn't worth taking even with the buff.  the other buffs only target morghasts and harvesters, but -1 rend, good as it is, isn't what those units need.  The final buff, an increase to durability, /is/ what those units need, but as a durability buff it's just not as good (and far less versatile) than the healing from a boneshaper.

What we needed was for ossifector to have the exact same healing as the boneshaper (I mean, he's modeled doing it), and then a spell that buffs the big stuff, and then swap out the boneshaper's spell for something that buffs little stuff.  that way both shapers can shape, and they just differ slightly in signature spell for what units the prefer to stand near while shaping.  Then give the reaper a better offensive spell, and some sort of effect to reward getting him close to enemy units.

I don't know.  Book's too recent, and too good, to be wishlisting changes.  But I just don't see the ossifector being worth running.

The frustrating thing is that the boneshaper is imo fairly priced, but it's bound to go up in points because he's the only small foot hero people are going to run because the other ones just don't do anything the army wants or needs, and GW is going to read that as 'the boneshaper is too strong, it's crowding out soulreapers and ossifectors'.

[Flippy]

3 minutes ago, Sception said:

The frustrating thing is that the boneshaper is imo fairly priced, but it's bound to go up in points because he's the only small foot hero people are going to run because the other ones just don't do anything the army wants or needs, and GW is going to read that as 'the boneshaper is too strong, it's crowding out soulreapers and ossifectors'.

Maybe the other two will go down, let’s keep this positive 😄

[Flippy]

For 1000 points, I may start with:

Option A

Liege-Kavalos, not sure which trait though;

Soulmason;

Boneshaper, Key;

Immortis Guard x 3

Mortek Guard x 10

Deathriders x 5

That is exactly 980 points.

 

Option B: drop the Liege-Kavalos, add another squad of Immortis Guard.

 

Option C

Soulmason;

Boneshaper, Key;

Immortis Guard x 3

Stalkers x 3

Mortek Guard x 20

 

The points are really tight 🤔

[Expendable Grunt]

Bit of a memey Petrifex list, but maybe it could work for 1000:

Boneshaper (General, First spell unbindable, double cast heal)

Immortis Guard x6

Stalkers x3

Stalkers x3

Soulstealer Carrion

1000 points on the dot.

Low model count, but the carrion can turn off enemy hordes when it comes to scoring objectives. The Immortis and Stalkers both have battle tactics associated with them, and the whole army minus the Boneshaper (who is bodyguarded to heck by the Immortis) takes -1 damage.

[Sception]

8 hours ago, Flippy said:

For 1000 points, I may start with:

Option A

Liege-Kavalos, not sure which trait though;

Soulmason;

Boneshaper, Key;

Immortis Guard x 3

Mortek Guard x 10

Deathriders x 5

consider list a but swapping the mason to reinforce the morteks, maybe? less magic, but magic can be shut down more easily than the liege's ca or the shaper's heals

[Sception]

2 hours ago, Expendable Grunt said:

Bit of a memey Petrifex list, but maybe it could work for 1000:

Boneshaper (General, First spell unbindable, double cast heal)

Immortis Guard x6

Stalkers x3

Stalkers x3

Soulstealer Carrion

1000 points on the dot.

I really like this for petrifex.

[Flippy]

5 hours ago, Expendable Grunt said:

Bit of a memey Petrifex list, but maybe it could work for 1000:

Boneshaper (General, First spell unbindable, double cast heal)

Immortis Guard x6

Stalkers x3

Stalkers x3

Soulstealer Carrion

1000 points on the dot.

Low model count, but the carrion can turn off enemy hordes when it comes to scoring objectives. The Immortis and Stalkers both have battle tactics associated with them, and the whole army minus the Boneshaper (who is bodyguarded to heck by the Immortis) takes -1 damage.

Really nice! But I don’t have that many Immortis / Stalkers yet.

Edit: But you actually got me thinking. I may try to split the Immortis into two units (to have five in total for the CPs) and substitute the Stalkers for Harbringers and Harvester. The deep strike element can be useful.

Edited April 10, 2023 by Flippy

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

5 hours ago, Expendable Grunt said:

Bit of a memey Petrifex list, but maybe it could work for 1000:

Boneshaper (General, First spell unbindable, double cast heal)

Immortis Guard x6

Stalkers x3

Stalkers x3

Soulstealer Carrion

1000 points on the dot.

Low model count, but the carrion can turn off enemy hordes when it comes to scoring objectives. The Immortis and Stalkers both have battle tactics associated with them, and the whole army minus the Boneshaper (who is bodyguarded to heck by the Immortis) takes -1 damage.

Petrifex is looking so strong right now. Definitely the legion I would pick if I was running more than one unit of big boys.

There is nothing preventing Katakros from.giving +1 to saves to Petrifex units, right?

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

13 hours ago, Flippy said:

For 1000 points, I may start with:

Option A

Liege-Kavalos, not sure which trait though;

Soulmason;

Boneshaper, Key;

Immortis Guard x 3

Mortek Guard x 10

Deathriders x 5

That is exactly 980 points.

 

Option B: drop the Liege-Kavalos, add another squad of Immortis Guard.

 

Option C

Soulmason;

Boneshaper, Key;

Immortis Guard x 3

Stalkers x 3

Mortek Guard x 20

 

The points are really tight 🤔

Not sure if that is an option for you, but I think Kainan's Reapers might be good for a 1000 point list. They give you an extra wizard hero with good attacks and base stats as well as an extra unit that captures for 15 models. They have good keywords, too: Mir Kainan is a MORTISAN and the reapers are MORTEK GUARD.

[anorek]

8 hours ago, Expendable Grunt said:

Bit of a memey Petrifex list, but maybe it could work for 1000:

Boneshaper (General, First spell unbindable, double cast heal)

Immortis Guard x6

Stalkers x3

Stalkers x3

Soulstealer Carrion

1000 points on the dot.

Low model count, but the carrion can turn off enemy hordes when it comes to scoring objectives. The Immortis and Stalkers both have battle tactics associated with them, and the whole army minus the Boneshaper (who is bodyguarded to heck by the Immortis) takes -1 damage.

Nice lineup
I was thinking of similar lineup with some Morghast harbingers for 2k pts list. Given my recent discovery that Soulmason is a loremaster, I would include him as well for versatility.

Katakros would be a great swap instead of Boneshaper

Also worried about low body count...

P.S. people have mixed feelings Morghast, mostly due to lower HP, but Harbingers can be used to strike shooters (unleash hell wont work against Morghast)

P.P.S. you can heal and ress a Morghast, yes? I don't know if its intentional, books is talking mostly about Immortis and Necrostalkers when it comes to healing...

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

4 minutes ago, anorek said:

Also worried about low body count...

That's the real balancing act in OBR. The book is pretty well designed in that way, you constantky have to make choices when list building. A lot of stuff in the book feels powerful, but it's absolutely not clear which options are the "best".

I think the Petrifex list will be popular and strong, but occasionally still lose on objectives because of the low body count.

7 minutes ago, anorek said:

you can heal and ress a Morghast, yes? I don't know if its intentional, books is talking mostly about Immortis and Necrostalkers when it comes to healing...

Heal yes, resurrect no.

[Flippy]

46 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

Not sure if that is an option for you, but I think Kainan's Reapers might be good for a 1000 point list. They give you an extra wizard hero with good attacks and base stats as well as an extra unit that captures for 15 models. They have good keywords, too: Mir Kainan is a MORTISAN and the reapers are MORTEK GUARD.

Soon. I have them assembled, primed and pre-shaded, but I have to finish Katakros first. 

[anorek]

1 hour ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

That's the real balancing act in OBR. The book is pretty well designed in that way, you constantky have to make choices when list building. A lot of stuff in the book feels powerful, but it's absolutely not clear which options are the "best".

I think the Petrifex list will be popular and strong, but occasionally still lose on objectives because of the low body count

True, but it would make me really happy to see at least 2 viable options, few % winrate difference

1 hour ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

Heal yes, resurrect no.

Thank you, missed the part of 3 wounds or less...

 

[Sception]

I think we'll see early consolidation around petrifex big guys and Katakros with little guys - maybe praetorians, maybe crematorians.  Arkhan is also sure to see play, but despite how good he is for his cost, that cost is still an issue, so I'm not sure what lists exactly will run him.  Can you even fit him in the petrifex list?  Can you run him next to katakros, or does that not leave you with enough points for units?  would you ever run him instead of katakros in a little stuff army?  Arkhan is good, but is anything he can do as good as Katakros's bubble aura?

People will try nagash, but I think the points cost is just too high in a book where points are as tight as obr.  Maybe new nagash will see some play in the other undead factions.  By the time he were cheap enough to run in OBR, he might be /too/ cheap in soulblight or FEC.  He might need special incentive to run in OBR, maybe let him issue and receive OBR CAs?

I doubt we'll see much out of the new mortek crawler.  I'm confident we won't see much of the soulreaper.  We might actually see vokmortian on the table in the petrifex list, since the soulmason's buff is now limited to little stuff only.  140 for a dual cast loremaster is Not Bad, and if you're running a reinforced block of immortis as I expect that list will then vokmortian might even be safe enough in melee to threaten his gimmick spell.

I'm not sure if the ossifector will see play.  IMO the crawlers don't do enough damage to be worth taking, let alone dedicating a hero to buffing them, plus if you're taking an ossifector then you probably want to take their fantastic artefact, and if you do then they need to be up front to spread that aura over your front lines, not in back with the artillery you probably aren't taking in the first place.  The harvester doesn't really need or want any of the buffs they offer - added durability is nice in principle, but I don't think 'ignore the first allocated wound per phase' is enough of a durability buff for that kind of points investment given the strong competition in support heroes.  In theory I could see morghasts benefiting from the extra rend, but morghasts are so expensive that I doubt we'll see them in the first place, and when we do the idea that you'd have extra points to spend on buffing just them seems unlikely, especially when part of the selling point of morghasts is that they're fast and flying, so the slow small infantry ossifector will have a hard time staying in range to keep his buffs on them as the game progresses.  He might never be in range in the first place if you use the harbinger's deep strike ability.

If the ossifector's buffs could target stalkers and immortis then they'd definitely have a place in the petrifex list.  Right now I have my fingers crossed for that specific fix as a future errata.  If they could buff the non-flying monstrous infantry then I'd absolutely make one the general with the -3 charge aura and the cartouche and put it front and center in a block of reinforced immortis guard as the anchor of a petrifex army with stalkers on the wings.  Heck, I could see putting a unit like that in a sort of mixed good stuff build too.

As it is, though, the boneshaper is the better 120 point support caster for pretty much any build you're actually going to run, while the soulmason in particular is a much stronger caster for an army of small stuff at only 40 points more (though admittedly the mason's artefact is trash, and 40 points is enough to get one of our fantastic endless spells, so even then...)

Boneshaper's pretty much our only halfway decent galletian champion, what with most of our good heroes being either named or mounted, if not both.  So it's a good thing this season is half over already.  In the mean time, maybe you just proxy the new ossifector as a second boneshaper, and hope the next ghb comes with a battlescroll that improves the ossifector somehow.

Again, my preferred ossifector fix (short of rewriting it and the boneshaper's scrolls) would be just extending the list of buffable targets to include immortis & stalkers, but a 20 points or more discount might be enough to make them runnable for cartouche and a lore spell alone, and forget their ability.  Alternatively, significant points drops for morghasts or crawlers might get them on the table, but the devs don't like to make massive points shifts at once, so I think it'll be multiple adjustments before either of those units sees enough play that you could justify taking an ossifector to buff them.

Edited April 10, 2023 by Sception

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

Good post. Two small comments:

16 minutes ago, Sception said:

mortek crawler

Spread the standard Necrotic Skulls shot around for 4 chances to make a unit strike last. You only need to target, not wound enemy units to trigger the roll. Pull the slot machine lever enough times and you hit jackpot eventually over the course of a game. Also, they can still snipe support heroes. Or focus fire big combat threats for that 3+ strike last. And basically anywhere on the field if you need it. Crawlers are a support unit now, not a damage dealer.

21 minutes ago, Sception said:

ossifector

I'd say he should be run in lists that have a harvester. That way you get the +1 to wound buff near the front line, get a harvester with +1 rend plus potentially another +1 from that one ossiarch command (rend 4 total), and get to cast a mortisan spell on top of that. Don't focus on the warscroll spell, it's a distraction. Just cast Empower Nadirite Weapons or whatever. The pair can support a block of Mortek or Immortis to make them both hard-hitting and durable. 

[Sception]

4, or even 2d6, chances at strike last when you have to roll a 5+ to trigger it is pretty unreliable.  I'm not going to spend 200 points on that, especially in an army as durable as OBR, where forcing the opponent to strike last doesn't seem like as much of a big deal as it would be for a glass cannon hyper-offense army.

Does harvester really need +1 rend for 120 points?  It can be rend -3 on its own, and you can throw out the save debuff spell on top of that.  Is that really going to benefit the harvester more than 3 free wounds back a turn?  There are other sources for wound buffs, or other buffs that can achieve more or less the same result in terms of increased damage.

Edited April 10, 2023 by Sception

[RocketPropelledGrenade]

Largely agreed with Sception, but with caveats. On the Crawler, I think Neil Arthur Hotep is right, the damage isn't the main reason you take it now. They can do a little chip damage, maybe clear chaff, but that's just a value-add to their debuffing.

Nagash is definitely overcosted, but I would point out he already has an OBR specific value add over Soulblight in creating replacement units. Soulblight can already do that, so Nagash just accelerates how fast they arrive. Not as familiar with FEC summoning, so comparison there is a little tougher for me personally. Nighthaunt does admittedly get the same value add as OBR. I think dropping him to much lower than 800 or so would have the potential to make  him outright busted, and he could be decent with as little as a 50-100 point drop out of his sky-high cost.

Finally, the Ossifector doesn't have to sit backfield to babysit catapults if you can get the spell off. Some armies make that unreliable, but put him midfield between a frontline harvester and a backfield crawler or two and I think he can do some work. I'm still not going to field one, but that's mostly because I have aesthetic objections to buying a Boneshaper repose as a new model.

 

 

[Sception]

strikes last just isn't the bonus for us that it is for other factions.  In soulblight I'd give my left femur for strikes last.  I'll take a necromancer just to cast soul cage.  but unlike grave guard, mortek guard can take a hit.  As can immortis, stalkers, and kavalos - all the main battleline units we're likely to take.  And we're not running any melee monsters that suffer significantly from bracketing like a VLoZD might.  Why spend 200 points to maybe make the opponent strike after you with a crawler when you could spend more or less the same points to support your units with a harvester.  Then the opponent can strike first and fail to do any significant damage through your armor and ward and harvester recursion and then you can just smash them anyway.

As for mid-line ossifector, that's just not good enough.  The cartouche is a wholly within 9" bubble.  He's got to be on the front lines.

Edited April 10, 2023 by Sception