Hammers of Sigmar and some other questions

[PiotrW]

Hello!

I'm currently assembling my first-ever AoS army, which is going to be the Stormcast Eternals. I have some models, I have the books and I also have some questions!

My first question is: I own Astreia Solbright and I'd definitely like to use her in play. But I took the peek at her set of command abilities and something puzzles me... She has this ability to empower the units of Sequitors, Liberators and Castigators - but only those with the Hammers of Sigmar keyword. Hammers of Sigmar is one of the Stormhosts you can choose for the purpose of allegiance abilities etc. - so, I gather that if you choose another Stormhost or not choose one at all, Astreia can't use her unique command abilities in such an army. Am I correct?

But! Here's another question: some of the units already have the Hammers of Sigmar keyword from the start. For example, Steelheart's Champions seem to count as Hammers of Sigmar, no matter what Stormhost the rest of the army belongs to. And they also count as Liberators! So... it seems that even if you choose a different Stormhost, but include Steelheart's Champions and Astreia into your army, then Astreia can empower the Champions? Am I getting this right?

Speaking of Steelheart's Champions, here's a big headscratcher: when running the Hammers of Sigmar army, you get this ability to get reinforcements whenever a unit of Redeemers gets slain: you can roll to receive free reinforcements in the form of an identical unit. This makes sense with ordinary Redeemer units: Sequitors and Liberators. But what about the Champions? They do count as Redeemers, so... what happens when they get defeated? Can you make a roll to get a duplicate unit, too? How to justify that story-wise: Steelheart's Champions were killed - but suddenly, say, Ironfist's Avengers arrive onto the field? Or are the Champions, as a unique unit, exempt from being duplicated that way?

On completely another note: what exactly happens when a general dies? I gather that you lose the general's specific command abilities, but does something else happen - some sort of panic among the troops etc.?

I'd be grateful for all advice!

[King Taloren]

1. Correct. Soulbright can only use her ability on Hammers and no other stormhost,

2. Yes units that have the Hammers keyword can benefit from her ability regardless of what stormhost you are running.

3. Yes you can return Steelhearts champions back to the field. Story wise just make up your own reason.

4. General dies and that is it. Outside of losing his abilities, traits and the 12” range of command abilities, there is no other drawbacks added. 

[PiotrW]

Alright, thanks! Some further questions:

1. When the general dies, do I choose another one or not? The core rules seem to say that I need to choose a new general, but the rules for the Pitched Play say that I can't do this...

2. Which units can be generals? Are there any restrictions aside from the fact that generals need to be Leader units?

3. If I understand correctly, if I choose a Spell Lore for my army, then all of the wizards in the army gain access to additional spells from that lore, right? If so, what about Evocators? Their warscrolls says they know only a single spell (Empower) and cannot cast other spells. But the write-up for the Spell Lores in the SCE book only mark one of two Lores as unavailable to Evocators. So..?

4. Spell question: when a spell description say "choose a friendly unit" as the spell's target, does the *caster* count as a friendly unit, too? In other words, can wizards cast spells on themselves?

[King Taloren]

1. If you are playing Matched play games then no you are not allowed to pick a new general. Only in Open play or narrative games.

2. There are.no other restrictions to who can be a general aside from the leader position.

3. There is an FAQ that allows Evocators to choose a spell from the Lore of Invigoration. GW forgot to say this when the book went to print. The can’t use other spells is still for Endless spells and other spell lores. Also you can only pick one spell from the Lores. Though you are allowed to give each wizard their own spell instead of one for all wizards because of the rule of one in pitched battle. 

4. Yes friendly units can include the caster as long as it doesn’t say “other friendly” that is the only exception to the rule. This is also true for abilities and command abilities and traits.

Edited July 26, 2019 by King Taloren

[Maturin]

19 hours ago, King Taloren said:

1. If you are playing Matched play games then no you are not allowed to pick a new general. Only in Open play or narrative games.

 

HEy mate, could you please tell me where to look for that official statement ? My local Warhammer Store plays it contrary as what you stated.

[EMMachine]

46 minutes ago, Maturin said:

HEy mate, could you please tell me where to look for that official statement ? My local Warhammer Store plays it contrary as what you stated.

Generals Handbook 2019, Page 55, Army Roster, Paragraph 4, Second Sentence.

Quote

If your general is slain in a Pitched Battle, do not pick a new one.

 

Edited July 27, 2019 by EMMachine

[King Taloren]

45 minutes ago, Maturin said:

HEy mate, could you please tell me where to look for that official statement ? My local Warhammer Store plays it contrary as what you stated.

Page 49 in the General’s Handbook 2018 under army roster for matched play. 

[Maturin]

7 minutes ago, EMMachine said:

Generals Handbook 2019, Page 55, Army Roster, Paragraph 4, Second Sentence.

 

 

7 minutes ago, King Taloren said:

Page 49 in the General’s Handbook 2018 under army roster for matched play. 

Cheers guys!

[PiotrW]

21 hours ago, King Taloren said:

3. There is an FAQ that allows Evocators to choose a spell from the Lore of Invigoration. GW forgot to say this when the book went to print. The can’t use other spells is still for Endless spells and other spell lores. Also you can only pick one spell from the Lores. Though you are allowed to give each wizard their own spell instead of one for all wizards because of the rule of one in pitched battle.

I see! Could I ask where this FAQ could be found?

BTW. What is the rule of one?

[EMMachine]

17 minutes ago, King Taloren said:

It’s on the warhammer community website. https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/age_of_sigmar_stormcast_eternals_errata_en.pdf

there are also ones there for every book printed including clarifications on some rules.

The rule of one is in matched play/pitched battle. You are only allowed to cast a spell once regardless of how many units might know the spell or if it succeeds or fails. So diversity among wizards is often a good thing.

Actually it isn't a Pitched Battle rule anymore. It is part of the corerules since 2.0 (like most of the other rules of 1 that were in the generals Handbook and Generals Handbook 2017)

Corerules, Page 8, Casting Spells, Paragraph 1

Quote

A Wizard can attempt to cast spells
in its own hero phase. You cannot
attempt to cast the same spell more
than once in the same turn (even
with a different wizard).

 

Edited July 27, 2019 by EMMachine

[PiotrW]

Again, thanks

I've been reading the rules some more and I'm not quite sure whether I get the Command Abilities right. Are they available only to generals, or to any unit that has them listed? For example, Astreia Solbright has these empowering abilities mentioned in the previous posts. Can she use them only when she's nominated as a general, or whenever she is in play and there are Command Points left to use?

Also, what about Command Abilities that aren't tied to specific units - like the three generic CAs in the rulebook, or the CAs that come from the Stormhost choice? When exactly can you use them: always (assuming you have CPs)? Only when you have a general? Only when you have a general and that general is a Hero?

[King Taloren]

Command abilities can be a bit weird. 

9 hours ago, PiotrW said:

Are they available only to generals, or to any unit that has them listed?

They are available to any unit that has them listed. But there are a few command abilities that only can only be used when that model is the general. And you General is always a hero/leader.

Astrellia is one of the models who can use her command abilities even if she isn't the general.

As to when they can be used any of the command abilities require a hero in the army,  the command points to use, and if the command ability is tied to a specific unit or model they need to be on the field to use it.

Some command abilities will require a hero or other unit in range of another to use. Like the three generic command abilities require a hero within 6” or the general within 12”.

[PiotrW]

10 hours ago, King Taloren said:

Command abilities can be a bit weird. 

They are available to any unit that has them listed. But there are a few command abilities that only can only be used when that model is the general. And you General is always a hero/leader.

Astrellia is one of the models who can use her command abilities even if she isn't the general.

As to when they can be used any of the command abilities require a hero in the army,  the command points to use, and if the command ability is tied to a specific unit or model they need to be on the field to use it.

Some command abilities will require a hero or other unit in range of another to use. Like the three generic command abilities require a hero within 6” or the general within 12”.

So, if I understand it correctly: there *are* command abilities (like the three most basic ones listed on p. 228 of the rulebook) that can be used as long as there's one Hero still standing and some command points available? Even if the general has been slain?

On another note, if you don't mind, two small question unrelated to the above:

1. On the Sequitors warscroll, it's said that a Sequitor-Prime *can* take a Redemption Cache. But a Cache doesn't cost points or anything like it. Soooo... why just "can"? Are there situations when a Sequitor-Prime would be better not carrying a Cache? Or is it where WYSIWYG comes into play - and you can only declare a Cache on models that physically have this object?

2. Endless Spells - when you move them, they cannot stop on top of other models, right? When moving them, you need to move them in such a way that they don't end their move on top of some other unit?

BTW. Aren't predatory Endless Spells a bit... suicidal to use? I wonder how it works in real games - but from the rules, it seems to me that they could easily be used to demolish both of the armies. If both of the players can command them freely...

[King Taloren]

Yes command abilities are always available as long as there is a model or unit that can use them General alive or dead.

1. They say can because you may not want to to take the Cache. And it allows for people who don’t want to have it. If you aren’t playing against a death or chaos army it’s relatively useless to say you have it. Sometimes the prime might also be taking the greatmace instead so he isn’t allowed to have the cache.

 

2. That is the risk of running endless spells and their usage. And giving a small advantage to going second at times so that you can choose which spell you need to have he most impact. And yes you can’t land them on top of a unit they must be sitting on the board or terrain at the end of their move. They cannot exceed their movement range either so often you might find yourself not able to get the maximum distance.

Edited August 5, 2019 by King Taloren

[XReN]

20 hours ago, PiotrW said:

1. On the Sequitors warscroll, it's said that a Sequitor-Prime *can* take a Redemption Cache. But a Cache doesn't cost points or anything like it. Soooo... why just "can"? Are there situations when a Sequitor-Prime would be better not carrying a Cache? Or is it where WYSIWYG comes into play - and you can only declare a Cache on models that physically have this object?

There is a massive reason to not take Cache - it's called Stormsmite Greatmace which Prime can also have. Which is far superior to Sword/Maul + Shield and Cache loadout

 

20 hours ago, PiotrW said:

BTW. Aren't predatory Endless Spells a bit... suicidal to use? I wonder how it works in real games - but from the rules, it seems to me that they could easily be used to demolish both of the armies. If both of the players can command them freely..

You need to plan for how you will use those and calculate risk/reward of doing so, for example an army like Flesh-Eater Courts can just tank whatever damage backfiring predatory spells do, you can also play things out to make opponent hurt himself if he decides to turn you ES against you.

[PiotrW]

22 hours ago, King Taloren said:

Yes command abilities are always available as long as there is a model or unit that can use them General alive or dead.

1. They say can because you may not want to to take the Cache. And it allows for people who don’t want to have it. If you aren’t playing against a death or chaos army it’s relatively useless to say you have it. Sometimes the prime might also be taking the greatmace instead so he isn’t allowed to have the cache.

 

2 hours ago, XReN said:

There is a massive reason to not take Cache - it's called Stormsmite Greatmace which Prime can also have. Which is far superior to Sword/Maul + Shield and Cache loadout

Hmmm. This I get But - maybe I'm too stuck on the wording - the warscroll doesn't say "Primes can take the Cache + Maul / Sword + Shield or the Greatmace". It seems to say that a Prime can take the Greatmace or the Maul / Sword + Shield... and, then, it also adds they you can also add the Cache to the latter combination. But you don't have to. And there's no trade-off for not taking the Cache.  So, why would anyone not take it?

Sorry if I'm too nitpicky

3 hours ago, XReN said:

You need to plan for how you will use those and calculate risk/reward of doing so, for example an army like Flesh-Eater Courts can just tank whatever damage backfiring predatory spells do, you can also play things out to make opponent hurt himself if he decides to turn you ES against you.

Any examples on how to do something like that? The only idea that comes to me is launching a predatory ES as far as possible, then running the heck away from it...

One more random question for you, guys: the balista. How does it work in play, exactly? What role do the engineers play? When the balista takes damage, who exactly takes damage first - the engineers or the balista? Or, maybe, they take the damage together and get slain together?

[XReN]

38 minutes ago, PiotrW said:

 

Hmmm. This I get But - maybe I'm too stuck on the wording - the warscroll doesn't say "Primes can take the Cache + Maul / Sword + Shield or the Greatmace". It seems to say that a Prime can take the Greatmace or the Maul / Sword + Shield... and, then, it also adds they you can also add the Cache to the latter combination. But you don't have to. And there's no trade-off for not taking the Cache.  So, why would anyone not take it?

Sorry if I'm too nitpicky

Any examples on how to do something like that? The only idea that comes to me is launching a predatory ES as far as possible, then running the heck away from it...

One more random question for you, guys: the balista. How does it work in play, exactly? What role do the engineers play? When the balista takes damage, who exactly takes damage first - the engineers or the balista? Or, maybe, they take the damage together and get slain together?

It states quite clear what I said earlier

You can wait and cast your ES when you are close, launching it over multiple opponent's units

They all die together, I hope GWs will make all artillery like ballistas, separate crew is just waaay to vulnerable

[King Taloren]

The Ballista  is primarily a long range lawn mower of infantry and some heavy armor units. That -2 rend is no joke especially when every hit counts as d6 hits.

The entire ballista and crew are treated as one model for damage and everything is killed and removed at the same time.

The Lord Ordinator which I’m guessing who you mean as an engineer is the buff of minor that makes the Ballista fire at 2+ for it 36” profile and 4+ on its 18” profile which is where you really want the buff. 

So glad they removed his original command ability, ORDER warmachines fire twice.

unless you mean the engineers with the ballista in which case they are there to show that it is a manned weapon and not some automaton 

Edited August 6, 2019 by King Taloren

[PiotrW]

Yup, I meant the two crewpersons that come with each ballista, I should've been more specific I've been wondering how they work - whether they die with the ballista itself, or one by one? Thanks for answering that

Another ballista question, though: how does the crew work in close combat? Let's say the ballista itself is being attacked from the front and the crew is completely at the back, an inch or two away from the attackers... Can you still use the crew's blades to attack? Or do you need to move them toward the attackers first?

[King Taloren]

7 hours ago, PiotrW said:

Yup, I meant the two crewpersons that come with each ballista, I should've been more specific I've been wondering how they work - whether they die with the ballista itself, or one by one? Thanks for answering that

Another ballista question, though: how does the crew work in close combat? Let's say the ballista itself is being attacked from the front and the crew is completely at the back, an inch or two away from the attackers... Can you still use the crew's blades to attack? Or do you need to move them toward the attackers first?

The ballista  and crew is counted as one complete unit so regardless of what part of the Ballista the enemy is near is in range of the melee attacks 

[PiotrW]

On 8/7/2019 at 4:43 AM, King Taloren said:

The ballista  and crew is counted as one complete unit so regardless of what part of the Ballista the enemy is near is in range of the melee attacks 

I see! But how this works when calculating firing distances - do you measure the distance from the main ballista piece or can you measure also from the crewmen? Logic would dictate the first option, but maybe it works another way...

On 7/27/2019 at 5:02 PM, King Taloren said:

It’s on the warhammer community website. https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/age_of_sigmar_stormcast_eternals_errata_en.pdf

there are also ones there for every book printed including clarifications on some rules.

The rule of one is in matched play/pitched battle. You are only allowed to cast a spell once regardless of how many units might know the spell or if it succeeds or fails. So diversity among wizards is often a good thing.

Thanks!

One last question: in Pitched Battle, you need to have at least 2 or 3 battleline unit. So, if I have 10 Sequitors, I can split them into 2 groups of 5 (the minimum size) and that would mean I have 2 battlelines? But, If I keep them as one big group of 10 Sequitors, they will count as a single battleline unit and I'd another unit to fill the quota?

[King Taloren]

31 minutes ago, PiotrW said:

I see! But how this works when calculating firing distances - do you measure the distance from the main ballista piece or can you measure also from the crewmen? Logic would dictate the first option, but maybe it works another way...

Thanks!

One last question: in Pitched Battle, you need to have at least 2 or 3 battleline unit. So, if I have 10 Sequitors, I can split them into 2 groups of 5 (the minimum size) and that would mean I have 2 battlelines? But, If I keep them as one big group of 10 Sequitors, they will count as a single battleline unit and I'd another unit to fill the quota?

The Ballista is treated as a single model so measurements from any part of it should be quite alright.

Yes. Though you do need to have the Lord Arcanum as the general to unlock the sequitors as a Battleline unit as wel. But you are correct that you will need to choose another Battleline if you have ten sequitors in one big unit.

Edited August 9, 2019 by King Taloren

[Isotop]

11 hours ago, PiotrW said:

I see! But how this works when calculating firing distances - do you measure the distance from the main ballista piece or can you measure also from the crewmen? Logic would dictate the first option, but maybe it works another way...

The rules perfectly tell us how the work (most times), although I agree the Ballista is a bit weird in this regard. "Logic" is not dedicating that we should measure from the Ballista body. What you describe  is an intuition how something should work from a real world point of view. Try to ignore this intuition of yours when trying to understand rules, it has no influence on how a rule is working. In the case of the Ballista, its rules tell us that the Ballista + crew are treated as one model, period. The core rules tell us that a distance between two models is measured between the closest points of the models bases. So yeah, if you are shooting something in front of the Ballista and you have a crewman in front of the "main Ballista" you will measure from (the base of) the crewman. Likewise an enemy model can charge the crewman and attack the Ballista as a whole.

It may help to imagine the three bases of the crewmen/Ballista as one (very weird) base with gaps within itself and a pretty strange shape. 

[PiotrW]

3 hours ago, Isotop said:

The rules perfectly tell us how the work (most times), although I agree the Ballista is a bit weird in this regard. "Logic" is not dedicating that we should measure from the Ballista body. What you describe  is an intuition how something should work from a real world point of view. Try to ignore this intuition of yours when trying to understand rules, it has no influence on how a rule is working. In the case of the Ballista, its rules tell us that the Ballista + crew are treated as one model, period. The core rules tell us that a distance between two models is measured between the closest points of the models bases. So yeah, if you are shooting something in front of the Ballista and you have a crewman in front of the "main Ballista" you will measure from (the base of) the crewman. Likewise an enemy model can charge the crewman and attack the Ballista as a whole.

It may help to imagine the three bases of the crewmen/Ballista as one (very weird) base with gaps within itself and a pretty strange shape. 

I see, thanks   But it also means, then, the Ballista's base is not only of strange shape, but it actually has the ability to *shapeshift*? Weird...

[Isotop]

1 hour ago, PiotrW said:

I see, thanks   But it also means, then, the Ballista's base is not only of strange shape, but it actually has the ability to *shapeshift*? Weird...

In my opinion you are not allowed to change the position of the crewmen realtive to the Ballista after deployment. Most people play it more liberal, though.

[King Taloren]

1 hour ago, PiotrW said:

I see! Could I ask where this FAQ could be found?

BTW. What is the rule of one?

It’s on the warhammer community website. https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/age_of_sigmar_stormcast_eternals_errata_en.pdf

there are also ones there for every book printed including clarifications on some rules.

The rule of one is in matched play/pitched battle. You are only allowed to cast a spell once regardless of how many units might know the spell or if it succeeds or fails. So diversity among wizards is often a good thing.

Edited July 27, 2019 by King Taloren