Seven Vertical Distance Questions

[Vextol]

Scenario:

Walking, melee model is on a wall 4 inches tall.  A flying summoner is 15 inches from said wall.   They summon a walking melee model which must remain 9 inches away. 

So, what exactly does that mean? 

1. Is the distance from the wall model measured down the wall 4 inches and then out from the wall 5? 

2. Straight out from the wall directly below the model 9 inches? 

3. At the angle pythagorean style 8.062 inches from the bottom of the wall and 9 inches away from the base of the wall model at an angle (guessing it's this one based on core rules)? 

4. Does it matter that the summoner is flying (probably not)? 

5. Would it matter if the unit on the wall was flying (probably not)? 

6. I assume the straight line 9 inch measurement would be used if the summoned unit was flying.  Thoughts?  This one is interesting to me because if it's not the case and you still measure base to base straight line, flying units can technically be summoned "closer" than legally allowed simply based on the height of the opposing model (which is ignored by fliers).   You could, in effect, summon a flying unit into combat if the opposing model was high enough. 

Came up because a building was on top of an objective and a tzeentch player was summoning a unit of brimstones and we weren't sure how far away to put them and how big of a charge they needed to make to hit the guy on the wall. 

[Vextol]

32 minutes ago, Isotop said:

Mind that in my example the enemy model is located at 2, not at C. Your summoned (flying!) model has to charge from X to B (which is the same as 1 and 2') and then up the wall - with the last part being 0" because of flying.

Wait.... C is at 2.   C' is (basically) at B and 1.  A model summoned at X would be 9 inches at the diagonal and sqrt(81-C^2) from the wall.  Required charge for flying is XB and XB+BC for a walking model. 

I'm almost certain we're saying the same things! 

Assuming the wall is 4 inches tall, that would mean a summoned grounded model would have to make a 12 inch charge to the model on the wall and a flying model would need to make an 8 inch charge.  Looks like a wall about 4.2 inches high is your best return for making charges difficult for any summoned unit! 😂 

[King Taloren]

11 minutes ago, Isotop said:

I am treating exaclty that in my last post. I would respectfully ask you to read other peoples post thoughtfully in order to not bloat up threads like this. 

The only thing I am correcting @Vextol on is the fact that in such a scenario the summoned model would still be 9,5" away from the enemy model, although the "charge distance" is 0,5".

 

 

Well actually he just has to be 9” away as long as the base is on the otherside of the 9” line.

so the charge would be even less than 1mm though that’s kind of just being pedantic about things. 

[Isotop]

1 minute ago, King Taloren said:

Well actually he just has to be 9” away as long as the base is on the otherside of the 9” line.

so the charge would be even less than 1mm though that’s kind of just being pedantic about things. 

The distance has to be greater than 9", a 9" line will not be enough (since both bases touch the line). I used 9,5" in my example to make things more simple.

[King Taloren]

2 minutes ago, Isotop said:

The distance has to be greater than 9", a 9" line will not be enough (since both bases touch the line). I used 9,5" in my example to make things more simple.

Greater than 9” is exactly on the other side of he 9” mark unless you are telling me a line has width.

[Isotop]

8 minutes ago, King Taloren said:

Greater than 9” is exactly on the other side of he 9” mark unless you are telling me a line has width.

We are talking about a line drawn between two bases (the distance we measure). If this line is 9" long, the distance between the bases is also 9", since each base has a distance of 0" to the line (the line is touching both bases). 

[King Taloren]

9 minutes ago, Isotop said:

We are talking about a line drawn between two bases (the distance we measure). If this line is 9" long, the distance between the bases is also 9", since each base has a distance of 0" to the line (the line is touching both bases). 

Well I didn’t say it was touching the 9”one I said on the other side of the line. Maybe you should thoughtfully read other people’s posts so that you don’t bloat the thread.

[Vextol]

1 hour ago, Isotop said:

If you summon a model at any point X between A and B and there is an enemy model located at 2, you measure directly between X and 2 and this distance has to be greater than 9".

Got it. Straight line, base to base.   Agreed. 

2 hours ago, Isotop said:

The model you summoned will have to charge a distance of X to B to reach the enemy model. 

This one I think is off. I think you have to charge a distance XB+BC.  You may be strictly speaking about flying units in which case I agree. 

The main crux is that by being 2 inches off the ground, you run almost no risk of being charged by grounded, summoned units.  Pretty huge actually.  

[Isotop]

34 minutes ago, Vextol said:

Got it. Straight line, base to base.   Agreed. 

This one I think is off. I think you have to charge a distance XB+BC.  You may be strictly speaking about flying units in which case I agree. 

The main crux is that by being 2 inches off the ground, you run almost no risk of being charged by grounded, summoned units.  Pretty huge actually.  

Mind that in my example the enemy model is located at 2, not at C. Your summoned (flying!) model has to charge from X to B (which is the same as 1 and 2') and then up the wall - with the last part being 0" because of flying.

[Isotop]

27 minutes ago, Lucky Snake Eyes said:

this brings up an interesting question: If you had say a unit of castigators or a ballista on top of a rock that's 5" tall, and the entirety of the surface of said rock was taken up by said units, would a unit that cannot fly then be unable to charge them since there would be no space to put said units models on the rock or within weapon range? This is a surprisingly relevant question for some armies as it's quite possible to build lists for armies like Slaves to darkness that don't involve any flying or ranged units.

This situation is taken care of in the Designer´s Commentary:

 

"Q: If I charge a model on a terrain feature, and there isn’t a space on which the charging model can stand, can it still make the charge move? A: Yes. As noted above, for simplicity and ease of play, models are assumed to be able to climb up any terrain feature, and can finish a move at any point when they do so (you will need to remember how far it has climbed, and measure distances and visibility to or from that model as if it were in that location)."

(https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/age_of_sigmar_core_rules_designers_commentary_en.pdf, page 5)

 

Models can (weirdly) stick on walls et cetera. Yes, GW rules are...dubious.

[Isotop]

22 minutes ago, Vextol said:

Wait.... C is at 2.   C' is (basically) at B and 1.  A model summoned at X would be 9 inches at the diagonal and sqrt(81-C^2) from the wall.  Required charge for flying is XB and XB+BC for a walking model. 

I'm almost certain we're saying the same things! 

Assuming the wall is 4 inches tall, that would mean a summoned grounded model would have to make a 12 inch charge to the model on the wall and a flying model would need to make an 8 inch charge.  Looks like a wall about 4.2 inches high is your best return for making charges difficult for any summoned unit! 😂 

I guess you picture the wall to be 0" in width. I picture is otherwise. 2 and C are not the same 😱

 

[Vextol]

14 minutes ago, Isotop said:

I guess you picture the wall to be 0" in width. I picture is otherwise. 2 and C are not the same 😱

Oh pththt on that (tongue out noise).  You know what I mean! 😝

XB+B2 or for flying sqrt(81-2^2)....except not two the number, 2 the variable...see the problem! See why I wanted C?!.... 

But yeah.. We agree 😂

[Future]

Deleted, answer didn't really participate in the existing discussion.

[Vextol]

12 minutes ago, Future said:

Flying never matters for these questions. Distance is always measured base to base and flying only takes effect during a movement. Note pile in and charge are movements but pile in cannot be activated unless a unit has charged or is within 3 inches (measured base to base). So flying does not shorten the vertical distance to trigger a pile in but if an ability triggered a pile in for a flying unit vertical distance is now ignored while piling in.

Key take aways -- Units are NOT always flying, only during movement, measuring is ALWAYS base to base.

I think everyone is  pretty much on the same page but you bring up an interesting point!  A flying unit at the base of a 4 inch object is not within 3 inches when measuring distance  base to base so they would not be allowed to make a pile in move because they aren't within 3 inches.  However, if they were allowed to make one they would potentially already be as close as possible...😵

Flying does matter when considering the distance required to summon (which was the initial point of the topic) because flying units seemingly can be summoned "closer" than ground units due to the advantage they get for ignoring vertical movement.  Small perk.

I do think that units that fly are always considered "flying" though.  Actually, I don't know if it really matters.  Outside movement and a few rules that reference "flying" models, the semantics of when something flies and doesn't aren't really burdensome.  If you have to check a measurement before you do something, base to base is all that matters.  Then you can do whatever you want "flying" wise.

[Future]

Deleted, answer didn't really participate in the existing discussion.

[Isotop]

20 hours ago, Future said:

Theres a lot of complex stuff being asked here and some simple answers have been given.

Flying never matters for these questions. Distance is always measured base to base and flying only takes effect during a movement. Note pile in and charge are movements but pile in cannot be activated unless a unit has charged or is within 3 inches (measured base to base). So flying does not shorten the vertical distance to trigger a pile in but if an ability triggered a pile in for a flying unit vertical distance is now ignored while piling in.

Key take aways -- Units are NOT always flying, only during movement, measuring is ALWAYS base to base.

 

Here are some RAW rules to support this from the core rules.

 

19 hours ago, Future said:

Flying models are always given the flying keyword this is true. They only ignore vertical distance during a move. They cannot be summoned different. As summoning follows measuring base to base. You do not ignore vertical distance while summoning.

 

edit: not sure why down voted but this is factually correct 

Firstly: I did not downvote you but I understand were it is coming from.

You are not really reacting to the things we discussed here.

No one ever claimed that flying models can be summoned 9" or closer to enemy models. @Vextol´s question was about the charge distance a flying summoned model will have to overcome after being summoned (regularly) >9" away from an enemy model. We found out and confirmed that this charge distance will be smaller then the minimum summoning distance in the special case of an enemy model being elevated in relation to the summoned model (flying!).

You pointed out that the flying model at the base of the obstacle (higher than 3") will not be able to pile-in. We allready had that from my perspective but it seemed you clarified it for others here - so that is fine.

All in all it appears to me that you did not really read all of the conversation, or you did not read it very carefully. Ultimately you are providing no real contribution to this thread but still act ,in my view, pretty arrogantly ("some simple answers have been given" - here comes the solution, boys!). So I think that kind of uninformative and at the same time pretty disrespectful behaviour led to you being downvoted.

Just stating correct things will not suffice, your statement should also be presented and embedded into the conversation in a reasonable way.

 

[Future]

2 hours ago, Isotop said:

Just stating correct things will not suffice, your statement should also be presented and embedded into the conversation in a reasonable way.

 

I think I misunderstood the way this question part of the forum works.I did not read the conversation at all. Usually in question asking threads you ask a question and people respond to the OP with an answer. If the OP likes this answer they upvote it as correct. I thought that was the intent here, not to have a conversation.

 

Also I apologize if my answer came off as arrogant but I think if that is the case it was misread. What I meant was that there are simple answers, as in other people have answered this question already. However, their answer was not up voted so I assumed the op still wanted clarification so i tried wording the same thing differently. I wasn't trying to say my answer was better or anything like that. That stems from my previous comment about how I guess I just don't understand how this part of the forum works. I will delete my responses since people find them condescending. which definitely wasn't the intention and I was intentionally recovering already covered stuff because I thought it was still unclear somehow.

[Isotop]

19 minutes ago, King Taloren said:

@Isotop I think what @Vextol is talking about is if you have a 9” tall structure with a unit on top at the edge of said structure, you could summon/deep strike a flying unit at the base of the structure and then proceed to have a 0”charge because they ignore vertical measurements when moving they essentially end up in combat easily. Because they legally land at the 9” away when you measure b2b but horizontal measurements are then ignored on the charge.

I am treating exaclty that in my last post. I would respectfully ask you to read other peoples post thoughtfully in order to not bloat up threads like this. 

The only thing I am correcting @Vextol on is the fact that in such a scenario the summoned model would still be 9,5" away from the enemy model, although the "charge distance" is 0,5".

 

 

[King Taloren]

@Isotop I think what @Vextol is talking about is if you have a 9” tall structure with a unit on top at the edge of said structure, you could summon/deep strike a flying unit at the base of the structure and then proceed to have a 0”charge because they ignore vertical measurements when moving they essentially end up in combat easily. Because they legally land at the 9” away when you measure b2b but horizontal measurements are then ignored on the charge.

[Lucky Snake Eyes]

this brings up an interesting question: If you had say a unit of castigators or a ballista on top of a rock that's 5" tall, and the entirety of the surface of said rock was taken up by said units, would a unit that cannot fly then be unable to charge them since there would be no space to put said units models on the rock or within weapon range? This is a surprisingly relevant question for some armies as it's quite possible to build lists for armies like Slaves to darkness that don't involve any flying or ranged units.

[Isotop]

14 minutes ago, Vextol said:

The movement portion I'm in 100% agreement.  That is very clear. 

So, just checking if I understand your thoughts, you believe the summoning distance for any unit is a point between AB that's equal to 9-p1p2?  That would mean if length p1p2 is equal to 9, the unit on the wall would be 9 inches away and the flying unit would be 0 inches away but not in combat until it charged, which would be a charge distance of 0 due to the fact that flying ignores vertical distance while moving? 

I am not sure if I understand the first part (probably just a problem of different formulation). If you summon a model at any point X between A and B and there is an enemy model located at 2, you measure directly between X and 2 and this distance has to be greater than 9". The model you summoned will have to charge a distance of X to B to reach the enemy model. Special case (the one you are talking about): You summon at B and the wall (distance 1 to 2) is 9,5" high you will need a 0" charge to reach the enemy model located at 2. The only thing I am not agreeing with is "the flying unit would be 0 inches away" - that is not correct. It is still 9,5" away, but it will still need a charge of 0" to reach the enemy model. 

 

edit: Just to prevent any confusion for people checking this thread out for the first time: 1, B and 2` (the projection of 2 onto the playing surface) are all the same point in this particular diagram.

[Vextol]

21 minutes ago, Isotop said:

The model is not really summoned in "hand to hand combat", though. It still has to charge 0" (just vertically up the wall) to attack an enemy standing on the top. The vertical distance is only ignored during movement, not for measuring weapon ranges.

The movement portion I'm in 100% agreement.  That is very clear. 

So, just checking if I understand your thoughts, you believe the summoning distance for any unit is a point between AB that's equal to 9-p1p2?  That would mean if length p1p2 is equal to 9, the unit on the wall would be 9 inches away and the flying unit would be 0 inches away but not in combat until it charged, which would be a charge distance of 0 due to the fact that flying ignores vertical distance while moving? 

[Isotop]

7 hours ago, XReN said:

I just don't like those rules, played 2 sieges on narrative events and they really sucked. Also wallrun charges rub me wrong way. Measuring coming reserves 3-dimentionaly and giving flying unit an ability to make 1" charges also feels wierd.

Same for me mate, I really do not like them. I think I got the word "working" wrong. I thought you meant "they are unclear" or "uncomplete" but you really meant "they are working in a not very enjoyable way". I totally agree with you.

[Isotop]

1 hour ago, Vextol said:

My confusion came from summoning flying units.  You could summon them into hand to hand combat if the wall was high enough.  Just seemed very strange.

I totally understand your confusion on this one. It originates from the weirdness of "Any vertical distance up and/or down is ignored when measuring a flying model’s move"(CR,p.4). I assure you that I really hate this kind of clonky rules writing, but I think the only conclusion we can draw from it is: When moving flying units, always and only measure horizontally (which, I guess, means parallel to the playing surface). The model is not really summoned in "hand to hand combat", though. It still has to charge 0" (just vertically up the wall) to attack an enemy standing on the top. The vertical distance is only ignored during movement, not for measuring weapon ranges.

 

1 hour ago, EMMachine said:

I don't know if high difference is ignored completly or if they mean with vertical hight only climbing.

Normally the measuring should work like this (the description is written in german, blue should be measuring a flying model and red a model without flying (where we see the vertical distance to move up the terrainpiece ) ).

I think what you really measure for a flying model are the two horizontal red line segments added together. As I quoted above, "any vertical distance is ignored" - but in your interpretation it is very much calculated into the required distance the model has to move. I patched a diagram with some more variables together to discuss this topic further:

A = starting point of our movement

B, C, D = arbitrary points we want to travel to

blue line = playing surface

black rectangle = solid obstacle with corners 1 to 4

C' = the projection of C onto the playing surface

 

According to the flying rules we have to work with, I think the distance a flying model has to move to reach C is measured from A to C' and puts the model into location C.

A non-flying model has to move the following path: A>>B>>2>>C to reach location C.

 

[EMMachine]

I don't know if high difference is ignored completly or if they mean with vertical hight only climbing.

Normally the measuring should work like this (the description is written in german, blue should be measuring a flying model and red a model without flying (where we see the vertical distance to move up the terrainpiece ) ).

[Vextol]

19 hours ago, Isotop said:

I do not really get your point. The core rules tell us how to measure distances, do they not? It is always base to base:

"Distances in Warhammer Age of Sigmar are measured [...] between the closest points of the bases of the models you’re measuring to and from [...]"

(https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Rulesheets/ENG_AoSSW_Rules_booklet_web.pdf, page 1)

 

Moving up walls is also clarified (even though I do not really like the mechanic) in the FAQ/Designer´s Commentary.

Am I missing something?

My confusion came from summoning flying units.  You could summon them into hand to hand combat if the wall was high enough.  Just seemed very strange.