How do you Handle Summoning with Path to Glory in AoS 2.0

[EMMachine]

Hi guys,

I've got a question in a german forum in for the case of summoning. I know that it is more of a narrative play question, so the players have more free room for house ruling, and because of that I write it into Diskussion (if it would fit better in Narrative and Open Play move it there).

The question in translation is.

Quote

And how is it with Summoning points or Summoning in general? I did not read anything about that either.

The point is, when Path to Glory came out (summer 2017), Summoning was handled with the spells on the Warscrolls itself.

So the only mentioning of Summoning in Path to Glory is on Page 18 of the PtG Rules, where those spells are mentioned.

The mainproblem is, since AoS 2.0 the summoning is mostly done with Allegiance Abilities, and Summoning Spells aren't used that often any more (most units lost there Summoning Spell).

Are Allegiance Abilities even a thing in Path to Glory? They are not mentioned in the Path to Glory rules (not like in Skirmish where only the Abilities shown in the Skirmish rules are usable) and the Path to Glory rules itself only referring to the Allegiance at best in case of Listbuilding. (Page 17, Point 1). Where you choose an Allegiance with the Allegiance Table and write the Grand Alliance on the Roster.

So, is summoning still a thing in AoS 2.0 with Path to Glory or is it mostly gone (or do you house-rule, that the Summoning Tables and ways to create the summonpoints are still in use even if not using Allegiance Abilities)?

[Asensur]

Summoning has changed dramatically for all factions in 2.0 and now it is allegiance dependant instead of warscroll/points dependant. 

 

General rule would be use summoning as normal, and units summoned do not stay in your army after each battle. 

[EMMachine]

5 minutes ago, Asensur said:

Summoning has changed dramatically for all factions in 2.0 and now it is allegiance dependant instead of warscroll/points dependant. 

 

General rule would be use summoning as normal, and units summoned do not stay in your army after each battle.  

The point is, are Allegiance Abilites even usable in Path to Glory (after having the reward Tables)? If this wouldn't be the case (or you could only take Grand Alliance Allegiance Abilities), no summoning for Khorne, Tzeentch, Nurgle, Slaanesh and Seraphon.

[froo]

43 minutes ago, EMMachine said:

The point is, are Allegiance Abilites even usable in Path to Glory (after having the reward Tables)?

I wouldn't see why not? You choose specific allegiances, so you would likely take that ability associated with it.

I was listening to Stormcast Episode 1 the other day and Jervis Johnson was saying Allegiance Abilities aren't point costed, so it's not like you're doing OP stuff. They input the stats of each unit into a large spreadsheet to get a ballpark figure of its points cost and adjust after playtesting, so if you don't use the allegiance abilities you're likely hamstringing yourself.

[Dead Scribe]

Depends.  I've seen some groups not allow summoning in path to glory and I can see why that is.

Path to Glory also doesn't use points and is not balanced at all, you just add units.

[Kramer]

Hi @EMMachine, I played with over the summer and was crazy fun. But two things to remember:

1. The allegiance ability, and warscrolls, are designed for bigger games so weird things can come up. Most summoning needs a ‘trigger’ to happen. For example we played Slaanesh less hero’s means fewer depravity points, means no excessive summoning. But I can imagine it being different with Seraphon. Which brings me to point 2.

2. It’s not a balanced system. So it’s not about ‘hamstringing’ yourself. It’s about you and your opponent having fun. If you feel your summoning is out of control.. play grand alliance or tone the rules down. And if that’s not what you or your opponent want to do, then Path to Glory is probably not for you. It’s fun though! 

[EMMachine]

Thanks for the answers.

19 minutes ago, Kramer said:

1. The allegiance ability, and warscrolls, are designed for bigger games so weird things can come up. Most summoning needs a ‘trigger’ to happen. For example we played Slaanesh less hero’s means fewer depravity points, means no excessive summoning. But I can imagine it being different with Seraphon. Which brings me to point 2. 

True, even if using the summoning rules of the allegiance Abilities, they would be quite differerent and unbalanced.

• Slaanesh has problems with 1 wound models
• Seraphon would be quite elite because most of there points are a result of the Slaan (that only has 2 followers)
• Nurgle needs the Trees or they will only make points with fieldcontrol.
• Tzeentch has to Focus on Wizards and needs many points
• Khorne would be the simplest because in his case it is only killing stuff and being killed.

19 minutes ago, Kramer said:

2. It’s not a balanced system. So it’s not about ‘hamstringing’ yourself. It’s about you and your opponent having fun. If you feel your summoning is out of control.. play grand alliance or tone the rules down. And if that’s not what you or your opponent want to do, then Path to Glory is probably not for you. It’s fun though! 

Yeah I know. Because of the narrative playstyle there is way more room for houseruling, but I wasn't the person, who ask this in the first place. I'm moderating the AoS Board in a german Forum and I'm normally the guy having access to nearly all rules (not with practical experience), but in that case I was unable to get an universal answer since the new Edition and the last battletomes changed some rules, but the PdG rules are refering to old rules and there was no Errata/FAQ for that case. I only thought this could be the place where I would get the most answers.

In the end I links this thread in my answer I made this morning.

 

[Sedraxis]

Since Path to Glory js made to be played as a narrative, there are no written rules on using allegiance abilities, artifacts etc.

I would recommend either:

Playing with all allegiances and abilities allowed, as most models in the factions are designed around those abilities and priced accordingly.

Or:

Playing every faction as their Grand Alliance and using their abilities instead of faction-specific allegiance bonusses.

In any case I'd recommend starting off without artifacs so your heroes can earn them in battle since Path to Glory is meant to be your champions journey to greatness.

It's very well suited for making up cool scenarios and stories about your own characters. For balanced competitive games and as a ruleset, not so much.

[Ryan Taylor]

I thought every force used its GA not its FA. 

[Kramer]

1 hour ago, Ryan Taylor said:

I thought every force used its GA not its FA. 

It’s specifically says so for Skirmish but not path to glory as far as i’m aware

3 hours ago, EMMachine said:

True, even if using the summoning rules of the allegiance Abilities, they would be quite differerent and unbalanced.

• Slaanesh has problems with 1 wound models
• Seraphon would be quite elite because most of there points are a result of the Slaan (that only has 2 followers)
• Nurgle needs the Trees or they will only make points with fieldcontrol.
• Tzeentch has to Focus on Wizards and needs many points
• Khorne would be the simplest because in his case it is only killing stuff and being killed.

Although I think you found the input you were looking for. My point was actually that most balance themselves out because they need triggers except seraphon, haha. 

My argument being, Khorne needs killed units smaller game, less points, less summoning. Slaanesh needs a lot of heroes to do substantial summoning, so smaller armies, less depravity less summoning. So late game my opponent usually could summon something small  the impact being minimal  

Nurgle needs board control. With a small army it really hurts to leave a unit behind so balanced itself a bit more. (But to be fair didn’t play this nor against it.) 

but Seraphon, it doesn’t matter if the Slaan is part of a 2K army or is on his own he generates the same amount of points even more if you roll for a astrolith bearer. So that might be an issue but even then, I would just try it. I reckon it will work out. (Alternatively don’t play the slaan or give the opponent an extra roll)

[Ryan Taylor]

Sorry  misread. I don't feel it to be a problem in PtG. Each alliance's abilities to summon are based on mechanics that are harder to do at small scale.

 

Even the slann. If you are bringing him and he isn't casting that is a boon for the other player. 

[angrycontra]

Based on my experience, PtG is best played with GA-abilities and not faction specific ones. The reason for this is that there are so many faction abilities that are completely broken when it comes to PtG (and before anyone says, I know it's not meant to be perfectly balanced mode but the better the balance, less one sided the games will be). Seraphon is already mentioned as their current summoning system doesn't scale at all. LoN's summoning system plus graveyards are also quite broken in smaller games. Tzeentch is poor for summons but those 9 dice they get are really dangerous in small games. If it's 2 broken armies clashing at each other, I guess there's no issue but not every faction is broken.

But ultimately, people should play how they want to play. I personally have not had much good experiences with PtG (some of gw's own scenarios for PtG are just plain terrible from their design) so that obviously affects my opinion here.

[EMMachine]

There is one thing I realized this weekend, I didn't realized before.

The rules 3 pages of Rules for Path to Glory are printed in every battletome that has Follower Tables inside the book, and while Path to Glory and every book before has this sentence:

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WIZARDS can summon other units during the course of a battle, but they will vanish once the battle is over.

This sentence is actually missing in the later books like Maggotkin of Nurgle or Legions of Nagash. Yeah, the first part is obsolete after Summoning Spells are mostly gone, but the last part of the sentence would still make sence in case of summoning units.