Skarbrand.

[Arkiham]

For skarbrands ability "total carnage "

If a target is hit by it the target suffers 8 wounds, no saves can be taken.

If this is used against a target who suffers half damage from attacks, does this still deal 8 wounds? As the writing is quite specific. "Target loses 8 wounds "

Or does it deal 4.

[Cowboy Boots Matt]

Firstly, ignore what GW says on the facebook page regarding rules, these have backtracked, changed etc between there and the FAQ (historically).

I use Skarbrand a lot, both Tournament games, and club games and have played against him a fair amount. I honestly do not understand the confusion.

- The Stonehorn halves the damage from Carnage

- However, if it has 8 or wounds less it dies, the rules are explicitly clear.

- You get the extra Death save, disgustingly resilient etc against the damage as these are not 'saves'.

You can argue fluff, interpretation etc. all you want however those are the rules. You can't really argue fluff wise that Skarbrand's axe wouldn't outright kill a wounded Stonehorn.

[Chris Tomlin]

43 minutes ago, Cowboy Boots Matt said:

Firstly, ignore what GW says on the facebook page regarding rules, these have backtracked, changed etc between there and the FAQ (historically).

I use Skarbrand a lot, both Tournament games, and club games and have played against him a fair amount. I honestly do not understand the confusion.

- The Stonehorn halves the damage from Carnage

- However, if it has 8 or wounds less it dies, the rules are explicitly clear.

- You get the extra Death save, disgustingly resilient etc against the damage as these are not 'saves'.

You can argue fluff, interpretation etc. all you want however those are the rules. You can't really argue fluff wise that Skarbrand's axe wouldn't outright kill a wounded Stonehorn.

Interesting. Didn't think you'd go that way with this (other than bashing the Facebook page haha!!).

I always thought you played it as you just lose 8 wounds, without triggering any other abilities.

[amysrevenge]

56 minutes ago, Cowboy Boots Matt said:

- The Stonehorn halves the damage from Carnage

- However, if it has 8 or wounds less it dies, the rules are explicitly clear.

Yeah, seems pretty clear to me.  Any other interpretation would require you to say "Well, they say X in the rule, but they don't really mean X, they really mean the opposite of X."  Which I've been railing against in several different contexts lately it feels like.

[RuneBrush]

Think it just needs an Official Clarification from GW rules guys on the terminology of "loses wounds" for Total Carnage as it's not used on any other warscroll.  It could be debated in pretty much any direction and equally all valid

[amysrevenge]

Well, the "loses wounds" part we all pretty much agree on, actually.  It's the "or is slain if it has 8 wounds or fewer remaining" part that is causing trouble.  I am (and many others here are) taking this to mean the model is slain if it has 8 wounds or fewer remaining (madness!).  The counter argument is that this explicit thing means something other than exactly what it says.

[BloodTithe]

I know this is an old debate but it's worrying how argumentative people can get over rules questions like this. But it's good that since this time skarbrand's rules have been clarified on his wardcroll: he inflicts 8 wounds and this can't be halved or reduced by any ability. So the original intention is now crystal clear.

[Shane]

So we're saying that "loses" is the keyword that breaks the standard combat sequence. As such it is resolved independently & outside of combat's rules.

Can someone ask this question on the Facebook page?

 

[Nico]

4.

[Arkiham]

The wording is very specific though. "Loses 8 wounds "

That's got to ignore the half damage thing due to its wording, it seems quite final.

[Nico]

No it doesn't.

[Arkiham]

But why lol.

How does a very specific wording get overruled by a basic one, where does it state rule priority?

I understand that normally they'd suffer half wounds. But it's ignored as the rule says you are suffering 8 wounds. Not 4. 

[Nico]

How is it any more specific than that a Thundertusk causes 6 mortal wounds when it hits you? The only difference is that it's written in words rather than on a damage chart. It doesn't engage with the wording of or otherwise override the halving wounds mechanic.

[Nico]

Cf. Reality Splitting Axe overrides it because is kills it.

[Arkiham]

11 minutes ago, Nico said:

How is it any more specific than that a Thundertusk causes 6 mortal wounds when it hits you? The only difference is that it's written in words rather than on a damage chart. It doesn't engage with the wording of or otherwise override the halving wounds mechanic.

They are damage tables and unit profiles, which are modifiable.

Whereas the total carnage is a rule which does not change. It says you take 8 wounds it never changes. It's always 8.

 

Just like how the half wounds thing is a rule. It never changes 

 

Except in this case a rule is saying take 8 wounds. Not look on the damage table an see how much damage is delt. It's a non modifiable 8.

[Nico]

You're just hand waving. This is pointless. By the same logic Starsoul maces wouldn't get halved.

[Shane]

Target suffers 8 wounds from attack. 

Target halves wounds suffered from attack. 

Target suffers 4 wounds. 

 

Please quote any rules wording that suggests different. 

[Arkiham]

It's not 8 wounds dealt, I missed quoted it. It's 8 wounds lost.

"One enemy model in the target unit loses 8 wounds (or is slain if it has 8 wounds or fewer remaining.) "

I feel like its a max health reduction rather than a damage skill. So 12/12 down to 4/4 rather than 4/12. Or 8/8 down to 0/0 

 

Or if you prefer.

 

Target loses 8 wounds from attack, target halves wounds due to rule an suffers 4.  Rule specifically says target suffers 8. Target suffers 8. Rule says half, rule says 8 Etc etc

 

Please quote a rule stating one rules priority over another...

I've not found another example which is quite as specified as to how much set damage is taken. Other rules say consult the damage table to see how much, this is a rule stating how much is taken.

So unless there is a faq it'll have to be down to a d6, store owner or event organiser.

[Sangfroid]

Do you think a "for wont of a better term ward" save (fyrelsayers or settra as an example) would be able to stop any of these total carnage wounds? If yes then the stonehorns ability works if not because the key word in the description means the model just "loses" 8 wounds then I'd have to agree with arkiham

 

[Nico]

Yes of course "ward saves" would work - crucially they are never described in the rules as saves, whereas Total Carnage specifically excludes "saves", i.e. armour.

The only reason why they have worded this in a funny manner (rather than just saying causes 8 mortal wounds) is that they don't want the damage to carry across to another model, so you don't kill 8 dudes.

[Arkiham]

But it wouldn't as the rule specifically says. " one enemy model "

if its the same as any type of damage it would just say, deals 8 mortal wounds, they ignore saves but are saved by ward saves. 

if the damage is the same as every other damage in the entire game, why say " one enemy model "  it cannot under any circumstances carry over to another model as the rule prohibits it, so against single wound units this ability is garbage, if it was the same as every other type of damage why say loses 8 wounds. it isnt as this "damage" is unique 

The ward also cannot save the damage, as again, in the rule it specifically states "(or is slain if it has 8 wounds of fewer remaining). No saves can be taken against total carnage - there's no escaping the axe's wrath " if the ward could save it, it wouldnt state this, the ward would save all 8 wounds. but the rule specifically says it is slain outright 

This is not normal damage, the way it is worded is, the damage is against total wounds, it is not dealing wounds. you just lose 8 wounds from your profile, you do not suffer damage, you just lose 8 wounds

so if you had a maximum health of 1-8. you die. if you had a maximum health of 12 you live, but your total health is reduced by 8, so now you have 4/4 not 12/12. if you had 8/12. you die, as the 8 wounds are removed, and it reduces health by 8 so you end up on 0/4

It works how other games work when maximum health is removed, you take that amount of damage and your maximum health is lowered by that much. 

unless they've massively messed up the wording for this rule there is no other way to look at it. 

[BaldoBeardo]

The Stonehorn ability doesn't come into play, because it is when damage and mortal wounds are INFLICTED.

This is semantically important.

Damage comes from the damage pool. Under the rules, "inflicting" is what occurs at the point at which you start taking damage from the damage pool and pick a model in the unit to start dishing then out.

Skarbrand's ability skips wound rolls, save rolls and the entire damage pool mechanic as you have to pick a specific model. It also reads that it skips sequence, as you instantly resolve the effect before working out the effects of the rest of his attacks.

This means it is a complete, unique mechanic for causing wounds to a unit, so you cannot assume any of the standard rules for damage apply here.

As has been pointed out, "Inflicts (up to) X mortal wounds" would have been a far simpler wording if that was the intent not to do this.

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[Nico]

I think you were reading an illustrative example as if it were the rule itself. An illustrative example will not cover the special case, e.g. Ward Saves, halving wounds.

[Nico]

The rule doesn't even use the word "inflicted". You're making a mountain out of a molehill here, when the sole purpose of this rule is to prevent the weapon killing multiple models (i.e. to nerf it because it would be overpowered); and you're trying to buff it, by saying it ignores normal wound reduction rules and "ward saves", when it clearly only ignores armour saves.

[RuneBrush]

14 minutes ago, Shane said:

Can someone ask this question on the Facebook page?

Think this is best call as it's quite easy to read it in a lot of different manners.  My personal opinion is that TC doesn't add to the damage pool but an "official" call on this would be good

[Arkiham]

Already asked it, no reply yet.

If it only ignored armour saves it wouldnt say. "Or is slain if it has 8 wounds of fewer remaining" It would just be written as target model suffers 8 mortal wounds.

They've already stopped it affecting other models by saying "pick one model in the target unit" They don't need to word anything else any different to how it's normally written.

The rule doesn't say inflicted but he is arguing that their abilities come into play when damage is inflicted, as I stated in my last comment I don't belive this ability is the same as normal attacks.

Other abities which do similar things, such as the mighty lord of khorne or the the gaunt summoner of tzeentch actually require you to do damage, so you have to go through the normal stages.