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twrightii

Doppelganger Cloak Question

Question

If a unit charges a model with the Doppelganger Cloak and there are no other units in combat do they have to be chosen to fight, but cannot attack and thus basically lose their attacks?

As I read it the Doppelganger cloak doesn’t prevent a unit from being chosen to fight. A unit is eligible to fight if they are with 3” on an enemy. Thoughts?

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It's pretty clear. Unless the bearer of the cloak has attacked in that combat phase, it cannot be chosen as the target of an attack. It doesn't mess with activation order, it doesn't prevent units activating, it doesn't prevent piling-in or charging.

Yes, it effectively makes the bearer invulnerable in melee if they are able to activate last.

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1 hour ago, Tropical Ghost General said:

We've played it locally, as every unit that can fight still gets to fight, even those that have charged, but against the unit with the cloak, they can't activate until the cloak wearing unit has done it's fighting. So it just messes up with the order of who fights, as it doesn't say that it cancels out the charging units attacks, just that they can't attack until the cloak unit has attacked. 

The order of activations is set in stone though and you take turns choosing a unit to activate.

If you have no more units to activate other than the one in combat with the user of the cloak you can’t avoid activation. Unfortunately you would pile in but couldn’t attack.

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6 hours ago, Tropical Ghost General said:

@TheWolfLord going by that principle it means that the bearer of the doppelganger cloak can't ever be targeted in combat unless multiple units attack the bearer of the cloak and even then it could still force the charging units to not be able to attack at all. I doubt very much that that is the intention of the artefact. 

It’s not a matter of multiple units attacking the bearer. You just need to choose other units unit the bearer of the cloak attacks then attack them back.

So to get round this you need to charge units into other combats and make sure you have more units involved across all fights than your opponent does. Then you just choose units not in combat with the bearer and wait for your opponent to activate the bearer.

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7 hours ago, InSaint said:

"The bearer cannot be chosen as the target of an attack with an enemy melee weapon unless the bearer has made any attacks earlier in the same phrase."

I think this is not as strong as it appears, you can still attack a unit equipped with this artifact first if you have multiple units carrying various weapons engaging in close combat. The wording "an attack" and "an enemy melee weapon" suggest that your opponent can only choose to deny only one (1) attack profile with a single unique melee weapon.

You can either choose to activate your attack sequence first and lose that specific attack profile, or simply redirect it elsewhere.

OR

You can wait until after his attack activation sequence to attack with all of your attack profiles.

 

If the intend was to disallow all attacks, they would have used the term "any attacks" with "any enemy melee weapon" instead.

 

No the cloak was designed to stop all attacks until the model activates. That is its weakness. With the chance of being out activated or charged with a single or multiple units that cannot activate because they won’t have a valid target until the cloaked model activates. Otherwise the cloak is approaching near uselessness in viability.

It might not say any attack but it is to mean all attacks. They were very specific on this in Warhammer Community articles leading up to the release of malign portents in the previews.

Edited by King Taloren

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This seems correct to me. Doppelganger cloak is especially strong if you have the last activation in combat.

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We've played it locally, as every unit that can fight still gets to fight, even those that have charged, but against the unit with the cloak, they can't activate until the cloak wearing unit has done it's fighting. So it just messes up with the order of who fights, as it doesn't say that it cancels out the charging units attacks, just that they can't attack until the cloak unit has attacked. 

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I have a hard time believing that was the intent, but is pretty clear that it is how the cloak work.  The wearer is still a valid target, so the attacker must activate if you don't have any other units in combat.  The cloak just doesn't allow attacks to be allocated.

I really hope they fix it.  It is pretty annoying to have number of units incimbat determine if you can ever attack.  All they'd need to do is say that the wearer isn't a valid target until activated.  Then you wouldn't bhave to activate until after they did in that situation.

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1 hour ago, Kevin K said:

I have a hard time believing that was the intent, but is pretty clear that it is how the cloak work.  The wearer is still a valid target, so the attacker must activate if you don't have any other units in combat.  The cloak just doesn't allow attacks to be allocated.

I really hope they fix it.  It is pretty annoying to have number of units incimbat determine if you can ever attack.  All they'd need to do is say that the wearer isn't a valid target until activated.  Then you wouldn't bhave to activate until after they did in that situation.

I can guarantee there's no "fix" planned for this as it's a pretty strong effect - even low level theory hammer would pick it up.

But who's going to take it?

If you take it as a hard melee counter because your character is squishy, then your opponent just needs to shoot or magic you out. Failing that, eventually you aren't going to go last in combat.

If you take it on a frontline/melee character... You're trading the point of the model for longevity.

Either way, this thing can be countered if you really want to

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3 hours ago, BaldoBeardo said:

I can guarantee there's no "fix" planned for this as it's a pretty strong effect - even low level theory hammer would pick it up.

But who's going to take it?

If you take it as a hard melee counter because your character is squishy, then your opponent just needs to shoot or magic you out. Failing that, eventually you aren't going to go last in combat.

If you take it on a frontline/melee character... You're trading the point of the model for longevity.

Either way, this thing can be countered if you really want to

I think it is really good (even in what I think is it's intended form), for  strong attackers without great defenses.  I think it is a really cool ability to make sure those kinds of models get to use their strong attacks.

It's current form creates a bad play experience which I don't like.  I'm not arguing that it is OP or not able to be delt with, just that it isn't fun, and it could be.  You're right, I would magic or shoot it off.  Or more likely, I would just make sure I have a bunch of pointless units in combat on the other side of the board so I'm allowed to attack, but how lame I that, lol.

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@TheWolfLord going by that principle it means that the bearer of the doppelganger cloak can't ever be targeted in combat unless multiple units attack the bearer of the cloak and even then it could still force the charging units to not be able to attack at all. I doubt very much that that is the intention of the artefact. 

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"The bearer cannot be chosen as the target of an attack with an enemy melee weapon unless the bearer has made any attacks earlier in the same phrase."

I think this is not as strong as it appears, you can still attack a unit equipped with this artifact first if you have multiple units carrying various weapons engaging in close combat. The wording "an attack" and "an enemy melee weapon" suggest that your opponent can only choose to deny only one (1) attack profile with a single unique melee weapon.

You can either choose to activate your attack sequence first and lose that specific attack profile, or simply redirect it elsewhere.

OR

You can wait until after his attack activation sequence to attack with all of your attack profiles.

 

If the intend was to disallow all attacks, they would have used the term "any attacks" with "any enemy melee weapon" instead.

 

Edited by InSaint

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