Slaves to Darkness / Chaos Undivided help

[Colgado]

I'm starting up a Slaves to Darkness army and trying to stay away from cult units (or with limited use). I'm struggling to see the strengths or combos that will hold up vs other allegiances/armies. 

For example knights are expensive in matched play and while tough they seem to be lacking damage. How are they best used?

That actually seems to be the overall challenge. The shields and wounds mean the army is hard to shift. But I find myself losing anytime I get into a protracted fight. What units or strategies are working for you? Any stand outs or combinations that I should consider adding?

 

 

[daedalus81]

Do you have a favorite god?

Review the battalions - see if there is one that fits your playstyle as some will alter how you use units.  Knights with lances are great on the charge, but if you don't have a good way to retreat then lances will be much worse than normal weapons.

Look for ways to get rend or units with it.  That will help keep a combat rolling.  

The sorcerer lord with oracular vision is great to buff two units at once and keep them fighting harder.  Chariots, especially gorebeast are great.  

[TrexPushups]

Chosen bring rend & mortal wounds to the party. They can buff your other slaves to darkness units too. 

 

[daedalus81]

8 hours ago, TrexPushups said:

Chosen bring rend & mortal wounds to the party. They can buff your other slaves to darkness units too. 

 

They are my favorite unit.  Best paired as tzeentch with a warshrine in my opinion.  And then give them daemonic power with the sorcerer and those 3s hit like bricks.

[TrexPushups]

11 hours ago, daedalus81 said:

They are my favorite unit.  Best paired as tzeentch with a warshrine in my opinion.  And then give them daemonic power with the sorcerer and those 3s hit like bricks.

Yeah their buff lets you get the same benefit that the Khorne dedicated shrine gets but you still retain the tzeentch advantages. 

[someone2040]

I've played almost exclusively Slaves to Darkness since the start of the year (The only stuff that isn't is my Chaos Gargant and Be'lakor at the moment). The only thing I'll say up front is that this is in a club environment (not tournament), so nobody has been trying to be ultra competitive and break the system. My choices in army so far have mainly been building and painting what I bought second hand. We've been running points using Clash Comp with our own house rules (Which largely align to standard stuff like measure to base, 1's always fail, no stacking abilities/spells).

 

I feel that Chosen are a must have in the army. They deal a huge amount of damage. They're a really good candidate now that we're restricted to Rules of 1 for Daemonic Power as well if you have more than 1 spellcaster in your list. 

Knights I've felt have been performing a bit lacklustre for me lately. They tend to charge in and whiff with their Glaives, which has been particularly disappointing. I'm potentially readjusting my view on them, and thinking they might be more suitable as mobile tanks. Potentially need to make more use out of their Terrifying Champions ability.

Warriors have been fairly solid for me. They do what's written on the tin. I don't think the extra hand weapons are worth it (I only have a unit with that choice due to mine being second hand and pre-assembled). My main unit has hand weapon + shield and has performed fairly consistently.

Marauder Horsemen I'm unsure about as well. I built mine with Javelins and Shields for a tiny it of ranged threat. They've done alright so far, and I've mainly used them as chaff so can't complain.

Chaos Warshrine I've used in one or two games. Not enough of a sample to really decide whether I like it or not. One game it was basically shot down in the first turn or two. The other game I unfortunately bungled so badly it didn't really make a difference. Hasn't seen much play due to being unpainted.

Chaos Sorcerer Lords have generally been must takes for me. They have a good ability they can pass off, and Daemonic Power as a spell has some interesting applications on the choppier units. Will have to see whether I prefer 1 or 2 in Battlehost sized games.

Chaos Lord I'm not sure about. Because I actually do run Undivided, I don't mark any of my units (and half the time, forget to mark him Khorne for some benefit). In theory, he's one of our only sources of Rend-2 in the army with the Reaperblade. Annoyingly, in my last game (3 on 3), my team was in a losing situation and to try turn the tide, my Chaos Lord waltzed into a unit of Retributors, Unleashed his Reaperblade, only for it to get armour saved on a 6 (For the record, it would've done 9 wounds). I don't think unleashing has ever done anything for me unfortunately.

 

Outside of Slaves to Darkness, I've used a Chaos Gargant a decent amount. He's done alright actually. Just a pity he has a stupid downside when he charges and potentially falls over. I don't think it's come up, but I'm sure someday it's going to cost me a game or something.

I've used Be'Lakor twice. One game I was stupid with him, the other game he was really ace. Mystic Shield him up and he's tanky as hell and with decent attacks. He hasn't seen more play because he's one of my few unpainted models for Chaos.

 

Other than that, I haven't tried anything else. I'm looking to potentially add a unit of Marauders as a cheaper battleline unit to fulfil my 3rd slot. Battleline unfortunately has hurt a bit, as prior I would've just been running one unit of Warriors. I think it can't hurt to have a cheaper unit that can hold my home objective.

That's the other thing, that with matched play and the initial 6 scenarios will be interesting to see if my faster units like Chaos Knights/Horsemen see more value if I need to contest objectives quickly.

 

The issue I feel most keenly in my games though is the lack of ranged damage. There's really not much way to pick off something that's critical to your opponent. Ramming straight into a battleline of Stormcast buffed by a Lord Celestant isn't a good way to start a fight, yet there's not many tools to take out said Lord Celestant either. With the Rule of 1's, can't even spam Arcane Bolt either. I'm thinking about trying to squeeze some Jezzails in to add some range to the army (I do have a particular theme that makes sense for them and Clan Eshin units).

[Nico]

Quote

Look for ways to get rend or units with it.  That will help keep a combat rolling.  

I like how you are saying this to one of the armies with the biggest lack of rend problem. It cannot even be fixed by resorting to monsters. The Manticore doesn't have -2 rend. The Slaughterbrute is an embarrassment to the model. The Chimera is very hard to play well. Monstrous Arcanum has given Chaos virtually nothing (compared to like 5 -3 rend monsters for Destruction).

I tried fixing it with the Fatesworn Warband, which is nice as it gives even horses -1 rend. Unfortunately it has been hard nerfed with the arcane bolts removed by the rule of one. It still might be ok (I've not seen the price), but then again Tzeentch Combat Synergies don't exist so you might be better going all Khorne and stacking the Bloodsecrator banners and hoping they don't have Saurus Guard plus Skink Priests.

Jezzails are great, especially with the +1 to hit Lord of War Command Trait (which is one of the best in the game).

The Warshrine is so-so from experience using it in the Fatesworn Warband.

Be'Lakor is one of the star units in Chaos - he has what amounts to a reverse command ability, which doesn't count as a Command Ability.

[Colgado]

Thanks guys for all the ideas and information. You've certainly given me a lot to think about. 

It really seems like more tactical play and use of synergies are essential to StD and similar lists. I also think taking advantage of the formations and allegiance bonuses will help greatly.

I just recently saw this article from Frontline gaming and I think I'll model my 2k list off this (Godsworn+Ruinbringer) but likely focus more on warriors for the Godsworn portion. The synergies just seem fantastic.  https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2016/07/20/starting-age-of-sigmar-cheap-and-easy-style/

Chosen seem great. But how do you protect them, or get them into combat? They're no tougher than warriors and don't have shields and they're almost double the cost per model. 

[Nico]

Neither of those formations are compelling to be honest. It's painful looking at each Campaign book as it dishes out another 4-6 Stormcast formations, 2 of which are better than any of the Slaves ones. 

Genuinely the only ones that look viable are the Nurgle (Plaguetouched) and Tzeentch (Fatesworn) Warbands from the Everchosen Book (plus the Ironguard, which is new and not pointed).

[daedalus81]

19 hours ago, Nico said:

I like how you are saying this to one of the armies with the biggest lack of rend problem. It cannot even be fixed by resorting to monsters. The Manticore doesn't have -2 rend. The Slaughterbrute is an embarrassment to the model. The Chimera is very hard to play well. Monstrous Arcanum has given Chaos virtually nothing (compared to like 5 -3 rend monsters for Destruction).

I tried fixing it with the Fatesworn Warband, which is nice as it gives even horses -1 rend. Unfortunately it has been hard nerfed with the arcane bolts removed by the rule of one. It still might be ok (I've not seen the price), but then again Tzeentch Combat Synergies don't exist so you might be better going all Khorne and stacking the Bloodsecrator banners and hoping they don't have Saurus Guard plus Skink Priests.

Jezzails are great, especially with the +1 to hit Lord of War Command Trait (which is one of the best in the game).

The Warshrine is so-so from experience using it in the Fatesworn Warband.

Be'Lakor is one of the star units in Chaos - he has what amounts to a reverse command ability, which doesn't count as a Command Ability.

Rend isn't the be-all end-all.  Rend is the easiest path, but not always the best one.

A 4+/4+ rend 1 is no different than a 4+/3+ with no rend.  Let that sink in and look for units that add to hit and to wound.

If you want JUST StD then you'll have to get creative, but the tools are available.

[TrexPushups]

1 hour ago, daedalus81 said:

Rend isn't the be-all end-all.  Rend is the easiest path, but not always the best one.

A 4+/4+ rend 1 is no different than a 4+/3+ with no rend.  Let that sink in and look for units that add to hit and to wound.

If you want JUST StD then you'll have to get creative, but the tools are available.

100 4+/3+ rend - attacks does 0.925 wounds to a 2+ with a re-roll ones ability

100 4+/4+ with rend -1 attacks does 5.5 wounds to the same tough target. 

The differences add up quick. 

[daedalus81]

Not sure what math you're using.

4+/4+ vs 4+ armor
1 * .5 * .5 * .666 = 0.1665

4+/3+ vs 4+ armor
1 * .5 * .666 * .5 = 0.1665

You're literally trading a better wound roll for a better (worse) save roll.  It doesn't matter if it's 100 or 1.  Its 16.7% of the time a wound goes through.

 

[Nico]

Quote

A 4+/4+ rend 1 is no different than a 4+/3+ with no rend.  Let that sink in and look for units that add to hit and to wound.

I think there is a point about units which have rerollable saves and there are some units in Vampires that gain a point of save against weapons without rend. Also you need -2 rend to deal with Saurus Guard.
 

[Arkiham]

Don't appreciate that the abbreviation for slaves to darkness is STD lol

[Nico]

The Nurgle ones have every disease.

[Bjarni St.]

10 hours ago, daedalus81 said:

Not sure what math you're using.

4+/4+ vs 4+ armor
1 * .5 * .5 * .666 = 0.1665

4+/3+ vs 4+ armor
1 * .5 * .666 * .5 = 0.1665

You're literally trading a better wound roll for a better (worse) save roll.  It doesn't matter if it's 100 or 1.  Its 16.7% of the time a wound goes through.

 

Against a 4+ save you're correct but consider that e.g. Rend -1 against a 2+ save doubles your wound output whereas +1 Wound (or Hit) is a 33% increase at 4+4+.

[daedalus81]

Yes, but something with that level or armor save is best reserved to be targeting by mortal wounds.  4+ is going to be the most common save you'll have to worry about.

[cranect]

I asked them if the battalions in the realmgate wars books would be getting points and they said no they are just for narrative and open play. So that might influence your decision I don't know.

[Colgado]

Hmm, what are everyone's opinions on the battalions? The Godsworn seems strong, and the Ruinbringer situational but for the points are they worth it?

Battalions aside, here is my tentative plan for 2,000:

Lord on Manticore

Lord on Mount

Sorcerer Lord on Mount

Sorcerer Lord on foot 

Demon Prince 

2x Warriors (x10)

3x Knights (x5)

2x Chariots 

Thoughts? Too leader heavy? I'm worried about not having enough punch. All ideas welcome. 

 

[daedalus81]

What marks are you using? 

If you're mono StD then possibly combine those warriors into one unit and get halberds on them to get the most out of the manticore lord's ability.  The knights will fulfill battle line.

[Colgado]

I'm thinking nurgle on the Manticore lord and either undivided or nurgle on the demon prince. Not sure on the mounted lord, I'll likely change it up to see what works. 

I like the look of sword/shield on the Warriors, would 20 with swords just be a waste as a block? 

I think chosen could help out a lot too but am unsure where/how to fit them in.

[daedalus81]

If swords then keeping them separate will be better, because it will be very hard to get 32mm with 1" weapons to get in range with that many models.

Another thing is that you're not packing a lot of ways to bring mortal wounds (not that there are tons anyway).  If you want to fit chosen drop the DP and a unit of knights and pick up a group of 10.  Make sure they are the target for oracular visions.  I think that'd let you squeeze in a gorebeast chariot, too.

[LordDrakonus]

I'm thinking of a slaves backbone army with 3 warriorswith sword and board as battle line a few units of knights and a couple of heros backed by clan skyre mortal wound spam. Couple of lightning cannons,arch-warlock,warlock and a few warp fire throwers. Thoughts?

[Nico]

Sounds decent. The Warriors can hold off the inevitable Retributor spam a little with their Runeshields, while the Skaven do the real damage.

I'm a big fan of Jezzails, especially if you're taking a generic general (so you can use the +1 to hit buff on them).

[daedalus81]

26 minutes ago, Nico said:

Sounds decent. The Warriors can hold off the inevitable Retributor spam a little with their Runeshields, while the Skaven do the real damage.

I'm a big fan of Jezzails, especially if you're taking a generic general (so you can use the +1 to hit buff on them).

You then need to leave your general in the back field to babysit them.   Not to mention a stiff breeze makes them run off the table.  The risk is certainly worth the reward though.