Let's Chat Sylvaneth

[Nico]

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Yeah, I've been taking a little break from painting my sylvaneth to finally get through painting silver tower. Although competitive Sylvaneth play is still on my mind. It just seems as far as this thread goes, we pretty much know where everybody stands. Nearly everybody agrees; gnarlroot is a very strong option for competitive play and that pretty much what everybody is playing atm. Winterleaf and Dreadwood are both effective options as well, but require a more specific collection requirement to be effective (outcasts for dreadwood and lots and lots of dryads for Winterleaf). So most players are opting to play the battalion that the easiest to collect. It also helps that the meta hasn't really come up with a good Gnarlroot counter. 

I'v also been watching the Disciples of Tzneetch release pretty closely. so far the leaks are kind of a mixed bag. It's looking to be a very very effect anti-magic army, with strong spell casting and great magic defense.  But a lot of the more interesting mechanics seem to rely on summoning, and it's just so severely restricted in matched play I'm seriously wondering how effective it would be as a tournament army. A fateweaver list with skyfires and acolytes would easily eat gnarlroot for breakfast, but I'm not certain it's got enough well rounded punch to be anything more than a rock-paper-scissors army until I've seen the rest of the formations and point values. 

Gnarlroot is strong, but Winterleaf is better in some crucial ways (more flexible as any order unit (Prayermobile vs Daemons anyone; also the battalion wide buff vs Chaos; and it augments the amazing power of Dryads). Dreadwood is still good, but unnecessarily nerfed.

The best counter for Gnarlroot is still a friendly chap called Nagash. You're not going to do 32 mortal wounds to him before he shuts down your magic single handedly - he can feed off Dryads every turn. He's not dumb enough to let Durthu get the drop on him without having a wall of bodies around him - and he will be on a 2+ rerolling ones after the first hero phase, so Durthu's sword might even bounce. However, he is still very rare since he's so overcosted/unsuited to facing other armies and the Battleplans.

The biggest concern for DoT is the simple fact that pew pew >>> magic due to the limited range of magic. They can mitigate this a bit by summoning casters into range, but then they are sitting in the middle of the table. Gunlines sitting behind Ward save chaff or Ward save hammer units are going to be a huge problem for DoT. 

[Mirage8112]

Gnarlroot is strong, but Winterleaf is better in some crucial ways (more flexible as any order unit (Prayermobile vs Daemons anyone; also the battalion wide buff vs Chaos; and it augments the amazing power of Dryads). Dreadwood is still good, but unnecessarily nerfed.

I think the difference of winterleaf vs gnarlroot comes down to playstyle. The buffs from winterleaf seem a bit match dependent and I haven't had too much trouble tackling chaos armies with any of the other builds. Also, Dreadwood hasn't been nerfed at all. The FAQ's just required I rewrite the list and rethink deployment. It still plays nearly the same as it did pre-faq. Still hits like a truck but now the damage comes from 1 main source instead of three. In some ways it's more reliable and flexible now, (although now it feels a bit less sportsmanlike.)    

The best counter for Gnarlroot is still a friendly chap called Nagash. You're not going to do 32 mortal wounds to him before he shuts down your magic single handedly - he can feed off Dryads every turn. He's not dumb enough to let Durthu get the drop on him without having a wall of bodies around him - and he will be on a 2+ rerolling ones after the first hero phase, so Durthu's sword might even bounce. However, he is still very rare since he's so overcosted/unsuited to facing other armies and the Battleplans.

Never seen a Nagash in competitive play for the reasons you mentioned. Nagash might be able to shut down spell casting easily enough, but a list with him isn't flexible enough to compete for objectives or shift bunkers AND be in range to shut down all the necessary casters.

 

The biggest concern for DoT is the simple fact that pew pew >>> magic due to the limited range of magic. They can mitigate this a bit by summoning casters into range, but then they are sitting in the middle of the table. Gunlines sitting behind Ward save chaff or Ward save hammer units are going to be a huge problem for DoT. 

I don't know if you've been following the leaks, but theres a lot of mechanics in the new DoT book that mitigate the drawbacks you mentioned. The army has great ranged support as well, the Tzaangors on disks doing D3 wounds, mortal wounds on 6's to hit, move 15 and 25" range are no joke. plus the fate dice mechanic can basically guarantee 9 mortal wounds per 3 tzaangors 3 times per game. There's a lot of interesting things the new book will be able to do, like (just revealed today), a "spirit-link" where a caster can basically durthu all wounds from himself onto another unit. Or how tzneetch demons add D6 models to 8 different units in your hero phase. Anyway. Like I said, jury's still out. We'll see in a week or so what the book is capable of. 

[scrubyandwells]

Hi gang, look what arrived today.  

If you'd like similar dice (or with a different color), happy to pass along the details. 

[Mirage8112]

Hi gang, look what arrived today. [emoji4] 
If you'd like similar dice (or with a different color), happy to pass along the details. 

Yes plz


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[Nico]

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Also, Dreadwood hasn't been nerfed at all. The FAQ's just required I rewrite the list and rethink deployment. It still plays nearly the same as it did pre-faq. Still hits like a truck but now the damage comes from 1 main source instead of three. In some ways it's more reliable and flexible now, (although now it feels a bit less sportsmanlike.)    

Is this with the Alarielle moving 16" trick before the game starts, casting spells at close range and then moving another 16" (and then failing a 3" charge...) that I suggested or just pumping up the size of the one unit that you deploy 6" away (12 Kurnoths with Scythes would be fun)? Glad to hear that it's stll competitive.

It's still a (small) nerf even if it's just the loss of the chance that you got to use the Sneak Attack when you happened to roll more than one ability on the D3. It has certainly weakened my Dreadwood list.

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Never seen a Nagash in competitive play for the reasons you mentioned. Nagash might be able to shut down spell casting easily enough, but a list with him isn't flexible enough to compete for objectives or shift bunkers AND be in range to shut down all the necessary casters.

Yep - it's a tall order. I only used him vs Sylvaneth as I wrote a possible list to counter Max Julian's triple Husktusk, Stonelord, Moonclan Grots list (which retired undefeated) @grunnlock Max couldn't make it to the club that night and @Bowlzeekindly stepped up. It was still quite a close one - Craig's Ancient killed Nagash - too late - (and Nagash has lost his Tomb Herald battery pack since then).

I still like the thought of 6 Stormfiends warpfire throwing Nagash for 24 Mortal wounds, bouncing 4 of them straight back, taking only 10 (average), then rolling an 8 on Soul Stealer on a nearby unit of Clanrats, healing back 6 wounds (lucky), maybe even letting off a Mortis Engine then deleting the Stormfiends with a volley of spells, pew pew and choppy. He has his uses.

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I don't know if you've been following the leaks, but theres a lot of mechanics in the new DoT book that mitigate the drawbacks you mentioned. The army has great ranged support as well, the Tzaangors on disks doing D3 wounds, mortal wounds on 6's to hit, move 15 and 25" range are no joke. plus the fate dice mechanic can basically guarantee 9 mortal wounds per 3 tzaangors 3 times per game. 

Sure. I'm as excited as anyone. I've been rather busy lately. I did start the thread on DoT.

Not seen the latest. The Skyfires might be good depending on synergies in the Battalions. I'm not sure that using all your destiny dice for that is going to be the best approach, but we'll see.

[Mirage8112]

On 1/18/2017 at 0:52 AM, Nico said:

Is this with the Alarielle moving 16" trick before the game starts, casting spells at close range and then moving another 16" (and then failing a 3" charge...) that I suggested or just pumping up the size of the one unit that you deploy 6" away (12 Kurnoths with Scythes would be fun)? Glad to hear that it's stll competitive.

It's still a (small) nerf even if it's just the loss of the chance that you got to use the Sneak Attack when you happened to roll more than one ability on the D3. It has certainly weakened my Dreadwood list.

It's the original list I publishes with the substitutions of Alarielle for Durthu at your suggestion:

Leaders
Alarielle the Everqueen (620)

Units
Spite-Revenants x 5 (100)
Spite-Revenants x 5 (100)
Spite-Revenants x 5 (100)
Spite-Revenants x 5 (100)
Tree-Revenants x 5 (100)
- Sylvaneth Battleline
Tree-Revenants x 5 (100)
- Sylvaneth Battleline
Tree-Revenants x 5 (100)
- Sylvaneth Battleline
Kurnoth Hunters x 9 (540)
- Scythes

Battalions
Dreadwood Wargrove (100)
Outcasts (40)

Total: 2000/2000

Even with only rolling a single trait (instead of more likely two) most of the damage ( 33 wounds on average) will be coming from the 9 scythe hunters who move into place with "Ambush" (9 is more optimal than 12 IMO due to range considerations). Alarielle is included in case you roll two traits (16" free move, 16" regular move and 3" charge) and also to make life difficult with her superior healing. If you roll 3 traits it makes the combo even more deadly, reducing ranges attacks to 12".

It's really not a nerf at all. My oringial Drycha/TL/Hunters combo pumped out something like ~28 wounds rolling only one trait. The difference now isn't the damage output (this list actually puts out more damage thanks to Alarielle's command trait), the difference is that this version of the list is a little less flexible. You could get more heros into the list before, and you had a wee bit more flexibility in deployment. But truthfully, given the increase wound output, I'd say this version is just as good as the other.

Although this version certainly hits harder. 
 

On 1/18/2017 at 0:52 AM, Nico said:

Not seen the latest. The Skyfires might be good depending on synergies in the Battalions. I'm not sure that using all your destiny dice for that is going to be the best approach, but we'll see.

well, if you account for the fact that you get 9 dice, and will average rolls, you only need to spend 2-3 dice per turn to get that damage output, plus the ability to add destiny dice yo your pool, I'd say it would be worth it. 

Consider this, a list with the Kairos, curseling and 3 skyfires could easily snipe out a TLA in a dryad bunker with a single magic/shooting round: Curseling stands 19" from TLA, casts "glean magic" (on a 3 or better) to steal "Awakening of the woods". Casts that for D3 wounds on the dryads and TLA, Then Kairos can cast "gift of change" for D6 wounds (tough to unbind, especially considering Karios can change a dice to whatever he wants once per game) Then sky fires roll in and pick off whatever wounds are left on the TLA at 25" range. No retaliation, no chance to unbind (basically), all ranged mortal wounds, and Curseling can now awaken wyldwoods and clear whatever is bunkered there without ever having to set foot in the woods.

I'd say to "guarantee" that result, you'd need expend maybe 5-6 fate dice at the most (assuming average rolls). That would be a pretty serious blow to a Gnarlroot list since the enemy could basically perform "magic surgery" to remove any teeth from the bunker before going in and getting choppy. 

But as I (and you) said, we'll see how the rest of the book shapes up. 
 

[Aezeal]

Question: Can you combine a wargrove with non sylvaneth units?

I'm looking at mirages list and was wondering if it's possible since: he doesn't use artefacts or traits anyway and would only loose the sylvaneth allegiance spell on Alarielle. You could then use the 300 points for other battle line units (since you already have some MSU skirmishers in the spite revenants so you might want to try some archers or something to camp on backline objectives or snipe small characters (since you only have 2 main hammers in the hunters and Alarielle and MSU spites might not punch through some rank n file a ranged treat might be nice).

[Mossback]

13 minutes ago, Mirage8112 said:

It's the original list I publishes with the substitutions of Alarielle for Durthu at your suggestion:

Leaders
Alarielle the Everqueen (620)

Units
Spite-Revenants x 5 (100)
Spite-Revenants x 5 (100)
Spite-Revenants x 5 (100)
Spite-Revenants x 5 (100)
Tree-Revenants x 5 (100)
- Sylvaneth Battleline
Tree-Revenants x 5 (100)
- Sylvaneth Battleline
Tree-Revenants x 5 (100)
- Sylvaneth Battleline
Kurnoth Hunters x 9 (540)
- Scythes

Battalions
Dreadwood Wargrove (100)
Outcasts (40)

Total: 2000/2000

Even with only rolling a single trait (instead of more likely two) most of the damage ( 33 wounds on average) will be coming from the 9 scythe hunters who move into place with "Ambush" (9 is more optimal than 12 IMO due to range considerations). Alarielle is included in case you roll two traits (16" free move, 16" regular move and 3" charge) and also to make life difficult with her superior healing. If you roll 3 traits it makes the combo even more deadly, reducing ranges attacks to 12".

It's really not a nerf at all. My oringial Drycha/TL/Hunters combo pumped out something like ~28 wounds rolling only one trait. The difference now isn't the damage output (this list actually puts out more damage thanks to Alarielle's command trait), the difference is that this version of the list is a little less flexible. You could get more heros into the list before, and you had a wee bit more flexibility in deployment. But truthfully, given the increase wound output, I'd say this version is just as good as the other.

Although this version certainly hits harder. 
 

well, if you account for the fact that you get 9 dice, and will average rolls, you only need to spend 2-3 dice per turn to get that damage output, plus the ability to add destiny dice yo your pool, I'd say it would be worth it. 

Consider this, a list with the Kairos, curseling and 3 skyfires could easily snipe out a TLA in a dryad bunker with a single magic/shooting round: Curseling stands 19" from TLA, casts "glean magic" (on a 3 or better) to steal "Awakening of the woods". Casts that for D3 wounds on the dryads and TLA, Then Kairos can cast "gift of change" for D6 wounds (tough to unbind, especially considering Karios can change a dice to whatever he wants once per game) Then sky fires roll in and pick off whatever wounds are left on the TLA at 25" range. No retaliation, no chance to unbind (basically), all ranged mortal wounds, and Curseling can now awaken wyldwoods and clear whatever is bunkered there without ever having to set foot in the woods.

I'd say to "guarantee" that result, you'd need expend maybe 5-6 fate dice at the most (assuming average rolls). That would be a pretty serious blow to a Gnarlroot list since the enemy could basically perform "magic surgery" to remove any teeth from the bunker before going in and getting choppy. 

But as I (and you) said, we'll see how the rest of the book shapes up. 
 

I'm not sure the them stealing "Awakening the Woods" would actually do anything to the Sylvaneth. The warscroll for the Wyldwood says "Roused by Magic" doesn't affect the Sylvaneth. The Curseling would only do damage to others on his side.

[Mirage8112]

13 minutes ago, Aezeal said:

Question: Can you combine a wargrove with non sylvaneth units?

I'm looking at mirages list and was wondering if it's possible since: he doesn't use artefacts or traits anyway and would only loose the sylvaneth allegiance spell on Alarielle. You could then use the 300 points for other battle line units (since you already have some MSU skirmishers in the spite revenants so you might want to try some archers or something to camp on backline objectives or snipe small characters (since you only have 2 main hammers in the hunters and Alarielle and MSU spites might not punch through some rank n file a ranged treat might be nice).

Yeah you totally could. I didn't include nay artifacts simply because they didn't directly factor into the alpha strike plan. The free wyldwood, and ability to start in the enclaves is pretty important if you draw an opponent that doesn't deploy on the board, or if you need to hold objectives. That being said, if your willing to lose the forest and deep strike, you could build a pretty nasty list around that as a core. The outcast battalion's 2d6-bravery mortal wounds to ALL enemies within 8" of 2 unit of outcasts hurts like hell vs enemies with low(ish) bravery. Especially if you roll well. And considering you can part 2 unit of outcasts behind a tarpit and hit 3-4 units of enemies at a time, oi. You'll lose friends with that.
 

7 minutes ago, Mossback said:

'm not sure the them stealing "Awakening the Woods" would actually do anything to the Sylvaneth. The warscroll for the Wyldwood says "Roused by Magic" doesn't affect the Sylvaneth. The Curseling would only do damage to others on his side.

The Terrain Special rule for Wyldwoods doesn't effect Sylvaneth units; this is true. But the TLA's spell doesn't say anything about exempting Sylvaneth. It just says D3 mortal wounds" to all enemies" within 3" of the forest. It's pretty ironic actually; getting torn apart by our own trees....

[Mossback]

Yeah...that is an odd one. Maybe a FAQ would clear it up. I don't think they thought of the possibility of being torn to toothpicks by your own summoned woods when they wrote that spell in the warscroll.

[Mirage8112]

39 minutes ago, Mossback said:

Yeah...that is an odd one. Maybe a FAQ would clear it up. I don't think they thought of the possibility of being torn to toothpicks by your own summoned woods when they wrote that spell in the warscroll.

Sure they did. You don't think they considered that two Sylvaneth armies would eventually face off against each other? i suspect it's written that way so that Sylvaneth casters aren't totally useless against other sylvaneth. It just so happens that in this case, one of the casters isn't Sylvaneth. 

Their are other fun things you could feasibly do with spell stealing as well. For example, stealing regrowth to heal your own units. Or even funnier, stealing Treesong to move those pesky dryad bunkers off objectives.... 

[Mossback]

I am imagining that battle right now; Sylvaneth versus Sylvaneth, and thinking what a chaotic scene it would be. Some stuff wouldn't work against either army, but the spell in this example would probably go off as described. I'm also imagining Alarielle having to swoop in and break up the fight like a mother separating two siblings.

[swarmofseals]

On 1/17/2017 at 0:53 AM, Nico said:

Gnarlroot is strong, but Winterleaf is better in some crucial ways

 

I hope that Winterleaf can be good at some point. I really want to run an Anointed on Frostheart Phoenix with my Sylvaneth (and seriously, how on theme is that with the Winterleaf Wargrove!) My only problem is that 4 units of Dryads get expensive fast, especially given that I have  a really hard time resigning myself to Dryad squads under 20.

[Nico]

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Sure they did. You don't think they considered that two Sylvaneth armies would eventually face off against each other? i suspect it's written that way so that Sylvaneth casters aren't totally useless against other sylvaneth. It just so happens that in this case, one of the casters isn't Sylvaneth. 

Their are other fun things you could feasibly do with spell stealing as well. For example, stealing regrowth to heal your own units. Or even funnier, stealing Treesong to move those pesky dryad bunkers off objectives.... 

Good spot on Awakening. That said, this is only going to happen some way into the game due to the 24" range on the Curseling's Glean Magic.

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Consider this, a list with the Kairos, curseling and 3 skyfires could easily snipe out a TLA in a dryad bunker with a single magic/shooting round: Curseling stands 19" from TLA, casts "glean magic" (on a 3 or better) to steal "Awakening of the woods". Casts that for D3 wounds on the dryads and TLA, Then Kairos can cast "gift of change" for D6 wounds (tough to unbind, especially considering Karios can change a dice to whatever he wants once per game) Then sky fires roll in and pick off whatever wounds are left on the TLA at 25" range. No retaliation, no chance to unbind (basically), all ranged mortal wounds, and Curseling can now awaken wyldwoods and clear whatever is bunkered there without ever having to set foot in the woods.

It's an interesting match up. I think the problem for the Tzeentch player is if the Sylvaneth are a single drop army and just drop sufficient pew pew first turn to obliterate the key squishy heroes or bludgeon their big block of Tzaangor before they get mystic shield off. Tzeentch might also have single drop army options (almost certainly), but then it's a 50% chance. A LoC or a Kairos with a 4+ save, no cover save etc. is a potential sitting duck and no way is it hiding behind a building (at least based on scenery that you typically find at (say) Warhammer World - unless you get a Dreadhold on the table. 

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It's really not a nerf at all. My oringial Drycha/TL/Hunters combo pumped out something like ~28 wounds rolling only one trait. The difference now isn't the damage output (this list actually puts out more damage thanks to Alarielle's command trait), the difference is that this version of the list is a little less flexible. You could get more heros into the list before, and you had a wee bit more flexibility in deployment. But truthfully, given the increase wound output, I'd say this version is just as good as the other.

From my persective it's a nerf as I bought models on the basis that Drycha and another unit could get into range first turn. Now it only works with Alarielle, who I'm not a fan of rules-wise (I'm a complete artefact and rerolling saves of one addict when it comes to Sylvaneth). I'm not saying she's bad or undercosted, I'm just saying that the "normal" Dreadwood strategy of actually taking the fluff hero Drycha who fits with the Spite Revenants and then whatever else as the second alpha strike option is nerfed.

I might have to bite the bullet and paint Alarielle too. 

As has been discussed above, Dreadwood with Alarielle is interestingly capable of mixing in Order stuff without sacrificing as much as none of it is particularly Wyldwood dependent or Lore dependent or artefact dependent, compared to Dryads-based lists. You could even cover off the Battleline requirements with Order Battleline (Waywatchers, Reavers, Judicators) and then stick in a few fluffy choices (Hurricanum, Phoenix Guard, Prayermobile, Volkmar, Bastiladon). Back in the listbuilding saddle! 

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Question: Can you combine a wargrove with non sylvaneth units?

You can in general, but normally you will be sacrificing a lot, like the lore spells and the artefacts. Alarielle can get by without a Lore Spell and doesn't get a command trait anyway.

[Aezeal]

46 minutes ago, swarmofseals said:

 

I hope that Winterleaf can be good at some point. I really want to run an Anointed on Frostheart Phoenix with my Sylvaneth (and seriously, how on theme is that with the Winterleaf Wargrove!) My only problem is that 4 units of Dryads get expensive fast, especially given that I have  a really hard time resigning myself to Dryad squads under 20.

Well I can tell you I had 10 dryads guarding my bonus wyldwood (1 base right in the middle) and they got charged by 25 elf spearmen and just kept surviving. They killed some, magic killed some.. and once spearmen where below 20 I was actually winning that fight. But 10's of dryads do need to be carefull (I gave em mystic shield a few times).

[Aezeal]

I was thinking 2 units of waywatchers so you have a bit more room for another stronger battleline unit.. but for effective units you'd probably still need a few more points

[Mirage8112]

1 hour ago, Nico said:

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Sure they did. You don't think they considered that two Sylvaneth armies would eventually face off against each other? i suspect it's written that way so that Sylvaneth casters aren't totally useless against other sylvaneth. It just so happens that in this case, one of the casters isn't Sylvaneth. 

Their are other fun things you could feasibly do with spell stealing as well. For example, stealing regrowth to heal your own units. Or even funnier, stealing Treesong to move those pesky dryad bunkers off objectives.... 

Good spot on Awakening. That said, this is only going to happen some way into the game due to the 24" range on the Curseling's Glean Magic.

Only if you put your dryad/TLA bunker in your deployment zone. And seriously, who does that? You drop your free forest always in deployment no-man's land for deep striking or objective grabbing. That means it's very likely the curseling will be in range by the second turn, and possibly even the first if you're too aggressive with your deployment. 

 

1 hour ago, Nico said:

It's an interesting match up. I think the problem for the Tzeentch player is if the Sylvaneth are a single drop army and just drop sufficient pew pew first turn to obliterate the key squishy heroes or bludgeon their big block of Tzaangor before they get mystic shield off. Tzeentch might also have single drop army options (almost certainly), but then it's a 50% chance. A LoC or a Kairos with a 4+ save, no cover save etc. is a potential sitting duck and no way is it hiding behind a building (at least based on scenery that you typically find at (say) Warhammer World - unless you get a Dreadhold on the table. 

Yes. It is possible to deep strike bow hunters for a ranged alpha strike. But with 3 bow hunters doing 4.5 wounds before saves, it's gonna be tough to drop a unit of 30 Tzaangors down to anything manageable in the first turn. Considering we've seemed to reach a consensus that Wyldwood trees block movement (we have haven't we?) it's tough to get more than 3-6 hunters in a wood if your planning on trying to get a dryad bunker in there too. There just isn't enough room when the trees are factored into the equation. 

It's a pretty good bet that the book will have meta-battalions with single drop options. and yeah 50-50 chance is far too much of a gamble for my liking. The least I'll chance is 65% in my favor. And yes, there's nothing big enough for new Kairos to hide behind. But I don't think we can bring enough firepower to bear in the first turn to take him out of the game outright. Plus, once the game gets underway (or if your opponent gets first turn) he can just soul-link to a unit of horrors and then go pretty much wherever he wants without worrying about taking any wounds at all. 

I'm not saying the book is auto vs us, but in this match-up Winterleaf is probably a much safer battalion to run instead of the usual "Gnarlroot+hunterspam". Up to this point I haven't seen an army that can really decidedly dominate the magic phase like Sylvaneth can. Our army is very much built around the movement phase and hero phase. (was opposed to BCR which is build around the movement and combat phases, or Ironjaws being built around the shooting/hero phases) This army look to be built solidly around the hero phase (so far) using magic in particular. I don't really see an equivalent on the table yet. 
 

1 hour ago, Nico said:

From my persective it's a nerf as I bought models on the basis that Drycha and another unit could get into range first turn. Now it only works with Alarielle, who I'm not a fan of rules-wise (I'm a complete artefact and rerolling saves of one addict when it comes to Sylvaneth). I'm not saying she's bad or undercosted, I'm just saying that the "normal" Dreadwood strategy of actually taking the fluff hero Drycha who fits with the Spite Revenants and then whatever else as the second alpha strike option is nerfed.

I might have to bite the bullet and paint Alarielle too. 

 

Well, you'd need to roll at least two stratagems but you could still make that happen. If you rolled ambush and sneak attack, you could feasibly get a unit of 9 hunters within 3" (ambush) and Drycha within 6" (Move 9"x2 = 18". Minus 24 inches between deployment zones = 6" left). That's a 97% chance to land the hunter charge and a 70% chance to land Drycha's charge. Those are pretty good odds I'd say. Plus, it frees up 340 points for other characters or units (TLA maybe?). And as @Aezeal pointed out, you don't even really need the sylvaneth Allegiance to make this battalion work. Those 340 points could be spent on pretty much any other order unit to bolster defenses or bring pew pew while the hunters and Drycha drop an early christmas present of ~35 wounds into your enemy's front line. 

There's more potential for an explosive alpha strike with Alarielle in the list (i just picked one up after running the numbers) thanks to re-rolling hits/wounds in the first turn. But this version of list does nearly the same thing, give you your fluffy hero, and gives you 340 points to mess around with. 

[Nico]

Good thinking as always @Mirage8112

I am reluctant to rely on my opponent's sincerely held belief that there is a magnet under his 12 inch line. However (if using the Flitterfuries then not such a big problem).

However....

Dreadwood

6-9 Hunters

Drycha

Maybe an Ancient (relaying the command ability via the Hunters)

30 Vulkites/Auric Hearthguard

Runesmiter.

Could be a horrific alpha strike.

Need more sleep before proper List building.

On train to Warhammer World and Heat One now. So excited/sleep deprived.

 

[Aezeal]

Considering we've seemed to reach a consensus that Wyldwood trees block movement (we have haven't we?) 

CERTAINLY NOT

[Mirage8112]

Considering we've seemed to reach a consensus that Wyldwood trees block movement (we have haven't we?) 
CERTAINLY NOT

Oh dear...


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[MidasKiss]

Submitting two lists in 24 hours for the first big Australian tournament in a week that's been a very long time coming. I know we've talked about it before, but wondering if there have been any thoughts on the classic lists that were most obvious to me when I bought my models in the beginning. We get to choose artefacts / traits / spells each game, though I'm guessing general needs to be specified although they didn't say.

My first list is going to be the fairly typical Gnarlroot/Free Spirits mashup:

• Ancient (general), Branchwych, Durthu
• 10 Dryads, 10 Dryads, 5 tree revenants, 6 scythes, 3 bows, 3 bows,
• Household, Gnarlroot, Free Spirits

Obviously no alpha with the free spirits post FAQ, but I've found it's still strong to get those scythes across the board to get onto objectives. Decent ranged threat with the two treelord shots + the 6 scythes, good combat and hopefully enough bodies to score across a game.

For my second list, I'm weighing up a Loremaster vs Sisters Gnarlroot (these are the two order wizard models I have available). 

• Durthu, Ancient, Branchwych, Loremaster
• 20 Dryads, 10 dryads, 5 tree revenants, 6 scythes, 3 bows (or some variant of 9 hunters)
• Household, Gnarlroot (would have to sacrifice 10 dryads for free spirits)

Seems the most obvious way to bring in the Loremaster. Advantage over other lists is 4 heroes for places of power. I feel like I'd rather have 6 scythes than 2 x 3 bows, but I might be mistaken there. Feels weird putting a lot of eggs in the durthu basket without the free spirits movement buff, but I guess he will find his way into combat pretty quickly. If I had more revenants I'd consider shuffling around to make some room for it but alas.

Classic sisters list:

• Treelord Ancient / branchwych / branchwych
• 20 Dryads / 10 dryads / 5 rev / 6 scythes / 3 bows / 3 bows
• Household / Gnarlroot

Got the nice 20 dryads to buff with the sisters, would probably run the +1 save / ignore rend of -1 on the TA in a lot of cases as well to go with that. Also seems very good, though only 3 heroes. I would obviously take this vs low/no mortal wound output armies which is nice, but I'm not sure how much info we will have before we pick our list. Early on we will know the grand alliance only unless the TOs decide to release lists.

Alternatively, the keep durthu alive sisters list

• Durthu (general), Ancient, Branchwych
• 10 Dryads, 10 Dryads, 5 tree revenants, 6 scythes, 3 bows, sisters of the thorn
• Household, Gnarlroot

Give durthu the ignore rend -1 and the +1 to save (or -1 to hit and just permanent mystic shield). He's a bit harder to ignore than the 20 dryads.

I always go around and around with these lists. If I had more dryads or had spite revenants I'd love to try the dreadwood / winterleaf lists that you guys have been talking about. I'm considering going the loremaster just because the buffed durthu is less frustrating. I'm definitely not going to win the thing so I don't have that kind of pressure, but I'd love to go in and see what they can do.

[Aezeal]

I would not make Durthu General. The TLA command ability is just too good, also combined with Oaken armor on Durthu. (it probably almost balances out against ignoring rend) and there is a good chance he'll be in range of that command ability if you use scythes. I would always go +1 save on Durthu, certainly combined with a TLA in the list. + 1 save is so good and Durthu is an expensive model: I would not trust on mystic shield to cover that but on the other hand on OTHER units where it's less points on the line a 2nd +1 from mystic shield CAN be a good bonus (it's more save bonusses and MORE flexibility)

However I am wondering wether a Gift of Ghyran on a TLA general would not add more than gnarled warrior (in combination with oaken armor). It would only be worse of against 1 rend enemies (obviously) and you might be able to intercept those with other troops. And even IF it happens he'll heal D3 wounds if you are near a wyldwood.. and with a 2+ RR 1's against 1 rend you'll still only recieve few wounds.

I'd not go sisters of the Thorn in a list with Durthu. In other lists it would be more of a choice I'd say but with Durthu the loremaster has such a prime target for his spell that I would use him. 

All in all I'd choose for one of the first 2 lists however in the 2nd list I'd probably go for 6 bows to reliably kill 5 wound hero's, artillery crew or lower wounds on large models to decrease effectiveness. The list already has Durthu as a melee killer.  In addition you have 20 dryads and TLA general with oaken armor and Gnarled warrior both of which are excellent tarpits at the least and actually both have quite some killyness (especially if you play them on 20 mm bases so you'll always attack with all 20 for 40 attacks... like I have :D). I think the 6 bows add more than 6 scythes in that Gnarlroot list. 6 bows are also prime material for camping an objective in your own deployment zone in several scenario's. They are incredibly hard to shift and bows will still be able to hit enemies nearly all over the table from the regular objective positions.

 

Ok re-read your post: you need 2 lists.. then I'd obviously say list 1 AND list 2.

You MIGHT want to consider what gnarlroot actually brings to your first list. It's not nothing (obviously) but you have a tax of 5 revenants (which you might not want : they have their role obviously but given the choice I'd prefer taking 20 dryads first) and a branchwych (which isn't that bad when casting 2 spells. but still) and ofc the 100 points the formation costs. You get more spells to cast too.. but is it worth it when you could get 30 dryads total and 3 more hunters?

[MidasKiss]

7 hours ago, Aezeal said:

You MIGHT want to consider what gnarlroot actually brings to your first list. It's not nothing (obviously) but you have a tax of 5 revenants (which you might not want : they have their role obviously but given the choice I'd prefer taking 20 dryads first) and a branchwych (which isn't that bad when casting 2 spells. but still) and ofc the 100 points the formation costs. You get more spells to cast too.. but is it worth it when you could get 30 dryads total and 3 more hunters?

Thanks for the good advice. Funnily enough I'd always ran 6 bows in that kind of list before, but thought that people would advice for 6 scythes anyways. I guess if it's my 3 places of power list I should take the ranged threat, and then I can also use it against armies that I suspect will have key pieces (bone splitters, etc).

In terms of this last point, Gnarlroot lets me have the option of one drop to get that high chance of dictating first turn and giving back some benefit in terms of the casting and chance of bringing back a kurnoth hunter. It does have a cost like you say though so I'll think it over.

[Aezeal]

DISCLAIMER:

I want mention  my advice is purely theoretical. Atm I'm playinig 1500 point games (my opponents prefer this for some reason) and own only 3 hunters. So maybe we need to hear what others think too  

[Aezeal]

On 20-1-2017 at 9:58 PM, Mirage8112 said:

 

Oh dear...


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I still find this a crucial thing though. Do you also think the base SHOULD have 3 trees? Or do you think it's allowed to use 1 (or 0) and then ignore the holes and just move aroudn the single tree? or do you think there HAVE to be 3 trees (or the holes as "proxies") which can't be moved over.