Let's Chat Sylvaneth

[Nico]

Quote

Is a great time to try Dreadwood without needing 7 units of revs!

Yeah - it's quite tempting to take this to Firestorm Fours. 

I suggested making Spite Revenants Battleline in my GH v2 suggestions; and/or reducing their cost slightly.

[Forestreveries]

Is a great time to try Dreadwood without needing 7 units of revs!

Yeah - it's quite tempting to take this to Firestorm Fours. 
I suggested making Spite Revenants Battleline in my GH v2 suggestions; and/or reducing their cost slightly.


So did I, and I believe Tyler did also, ... with the caveat that you shouldn't do both.

I don't think reducing the points cost is a fix for tree revenants, as it doesn't make them any better just means you can fit in slightly more "other / better stuff"

However with spites that would be a good option. I think I prefer the battleline option as it makes the army as a whole have more options available.


Sent from the Hidden Enclaves via the Realmroots

[Nico]

Quote

I don't think reducing the points cost is a fix for tree revenants, as it doesn't make them any better just means you can fit in slightly more "other / better stuff" 

However with spites that would be a good option. I think I prefer the battleline option as it makes the army as a whole have more options available. 

Agreed. The issue being that they are only going to make changes to the GH (so points and FAQs for abilities) rather than rewriting the Warscrolls (based on past form). Tree Revenants could do with hitting on 3+ instead of 4+ or some kind of extra offensive ability to justify them as hit and run troops.

[scrubyandwells]

@Forestreveries, @Nico: Thanks guys for the feedback. I'll go with the 1960pt list. I think we can re-roll duplicates (asking). The thought behind 3 greatsword Kurnoth was mostly for aesthetic variety + to have a unit more optimal vs a horde unit, but 'can imagine a lot of instances where you'd wish you'd taken the extra unit of scythes. And re: another wizard to help ensure getting at least one key spell, it's definitely tempting... I've just found it pretty critical to have at least a couple chaff / utility units.

Thanks Aaron for the tip on the Branchwraith.

[xaman]

Hello!

I have a question, probably has made more times but, I dont understand wyldwood at 100%. Because the lists in here doesn't include anyone. That's mean they can not setting them up anyhow?

For example with "Life Florishes" from the Awakening or spell "Verdant Blessing.

I could ask the same question for the Dryads you cast with Branwych.

I do not whatelse say, so thanks everyone!

[Forestreveries]

Hello!
I have a question, probably has made more times but, I dont understand wyldwood at 100%. Because the lists in here doesn't include anyone. That's mean they can not setting them up anyhow?
For example with "Life Florishes" from the Awakening or spell "Verdant Blessing.
I could ask the same question for the Dryads you cast with Branwych.
I do not whatelse say, so thanks everyone!

Not sure what the protocol is yet, if TO's would like every Sylvaneth player to, then we can list our "free" one on every list; thereafter all woods can be summoned from reinforcements pool of 0pts. Which is also unnecessary to physically write on a list per se.

Guess it sort of just goes without saying, certainly in this thread anyhow. [emoji1303]



Sent from the Hidden Enclaves via the Realmroots

[scrubyandwells]

2 hours ago, xaman said:

Hello!

I have a question, probably has made more times but, I dont understand wyldwood at 100%. Because the lists in here doesn't include anyone. That's mean they can not setting them up anyhow?

For example with "Life Florishes" from the Awakening or spell "Verdant Blessing.

I could ask the same question for the Dryads you cast with Branwych.

I do not whatelse say, so thanks everyone!

Sylvaneth Allegiance lists have access to an unlimited # of Wyldwoods for free (0 pts), so there's no need to specify them in a list, unless an event is doing some kind of special comp. 

[Well of Eternity]

So there is no point value in Sylvaneth Darkroot Wargrove. And the abilites is:

"In your charge phase, if Drycha or the Spite-Revenants from this battalion are within 12" of an enemy unit that has suffered any unsaved wounds or mortal wounds caused by any of the other units from this battalion, you can re-roll their charge rolls"

 

Nothing special as for me.

(and yes Spite and Tree-Revenants are in battalion)

[xaman]

17 hours ago, scrubyandwells said:

...

 

19 hours ago, Forestreveries said:

...

 

Thank you two.

That rule of costs 0 pts. is in the General's Book or in the Battletome (Sorry @Forestreveries, I am new in here and I dont Understand what "TO" means ).

 

[Aezeal]

On ‎07‎/‎12‎/‎2016 at 0:03 PM, Well of Eternity said:

So there is no point value in Sylvaneth Darkroot Wargrove. And the abilites is:

"In your charge phase, if Drycha or the Spite-Revenants from this battalion are within 12" of an enemy unit that has suffered any unsaved wounds or mortal wounds caused by any of the other units from this battalion, you can re-roll their charge rolls"

 

Nothing special as for me.

(and yes Spite and Tree-Revenants are in battalion)

Compared to the other scrolls it's utter garbage. It gives limited mobility on units that do not need it (already good move). It's not even a fixed bonus but a reroll. It have a prerequisite that the unit needs to be damaged (so either in combat or you have to waste shots at that unit, which might not always be ideal. It doesn't increase killing power (unlike the good buffs the others get).

[Nico]

I agree that it doesn't look very strong at the outset. On the plus side it's another way to use Spite Revenants and it's another (hopefully cheap) way to get another artefact.

The other three look better, the Stormcast one in particular looks very nifty as a way to buff Prime Time.

[Rhellion]

On 12/6/2016 at 0:12 PM, scrubyandwells said:

@Forestreveries, @Nico: Thanks guys for the feedback. I'll go with the 1960pt list. I think we can re-roll duplicates (asking). The thought behind 3 greatsword Kurnoth was mostly for aesthetic variety + to have a unit more optimal vs a horde unit, but 'can imagine a lot of instances where you'd wish you'd taken the extra unit of scythes. And re: another wizard to help ensure getting at least one key spell, it's definitely tempting... I've just found it pretty critical to have at least a couple chaff / utility units.

Thanks Aaron for the tip on the Branchwraith.

I was told no re-rolling duplicates, and likely leaving Sylvaneth at home because of the rules.

[Forestreveries]

I was told no re-rolling duplicates, and likely leaving Sylvaneth at home because of the rules.

That's a shame! I don't get why you would ever want to roll or rule it that way for an event personally.


I've signed up for a two day event here in the UK tomorrow (last minute I know!)

Taking the same list I took to Rain of Stars, as I haven't actually painted anything since then.

That's Alarielle, Durthu and Drycha monster mash for those that weren't part of the chat back then.
We get to pick traits and artefacts before the game though so should be ok.

Aaron


Sent from the Hidden Enclaves via the Realmroots

[Jimbo]

@Forestreveries do you change artefacts between games depending on what you are facing?

 

[Forestreveries]

@Forestreveries do you change artefacts between games depending on what you are facing?
 

Yeah, only occasionally though.

Briarsheath and Gift of Ghyran are prob my standard

I'll swap for Oaken Armour and Gnarled Warrior vs Ironjawz and potentially Chaos combat armies as they have an abundance of +1 to hit or rerolls to get around Briarsheath.

As was brought up recently if I play against double Thundertusks or other things capable of doing 6 damage I'll take Seed of Rebirth in future so as not to auto-die to that.

Secondary artefacts are normally always Ranu's Lamentiri on Branchnouns.

Won't have any of those this weekend due to no battalions though!


Sent from the Hidden Enclaves via the Realmroots

[Jimbo]

I kinda like the silverwood circlet on the branchwych for a 15" bubble with her explody spell.

Briarsheath is standard for me too.

[Nico]

Quote

Taking the same list I took to Rain of Stars, as I haven't actually painted anything since then. 

That's Alarielle, Durthu and Drycha monster mash for those that weren't part of the chat back then. 
We get to pick traits and artefacts before the game though so should be ok. 

Be lucky!

Looking forward to hearing about the games.

Quote

I kinda like the silverwood circlet on the branchwych for a 15" bubble with her explody spell.

Now that the Balewind Vortex is 100 points and 100% legitimate, the Reaping Bomb is viable against MSU armies (albeit expensive and risky with a 7 to cast). 

[Andy89]

So i just picked up the sylvaneth battleforce box and battletome. My first idea for a list was something like this:

Gnarlroot wargrove
Household battalion
Treelord ancient
Branchwych
5 tree revenants
Hurricanum
20 dryads
5 tree revenants
Drycha
3 kurnoth hunters with scythes
3 kurnoth hunters with bows

I am not sure how many points that is as i cant grab my handbook right now but i feel that its close to 2000. If not i would throw in 6 treekin.

Thoughts?

Sent from my LG-K210 using Tapatalk

[Craptrain]

22 minutes ago, Andy89 said:

So i just picked up the sylvaneth battleforce box and battletome. My first idea for a list was something like this:

Gnarlroot wargrove
Household battalion
Treelord ancient
Branchwych
5 tree revenants
Hurricanum
20 dryads
5 tree revenants
Drycha
3 kurnoth hunters with scythes
3 kurnoth hunters with bows

I am not sure how many points that is as i cant grab my handbook right now but i feel that its close to 2000. If not i would throw in 6 treekin.

Thoughts?

Sent from my LG-K210 using Tapatalk
 

Assuming I mathed right, that list clocks in at 1900 points.  Others may have a different take than me, but I really don't like running more than the minimum 5 tree revenants to qualify for the Household battalion.  I would split those dryads into two groups of 10 (which I know loses them bonuses) to meet my battle line requirements, drop the extra squad of tree revs and add in a squad of Kurnoth Hunters with bows to really take advantage of the Hurricanum's +1 to hit rolls.  Assuming I mathed right again, that should clock you in at 1980 points.

[Aezeal]

Personally I'd go 2x20 dryads if you can fit it in.

11 minutes ago, Craptrain said:

Assuming I mathed right, that list clocks in at 1900 points.  Others may have a different take than me, but I really don't like running more than the minimum 5 tree revenants to qualify for the Household battalion.  I would split those dryads into two groups of 10 (which I know loses them bonuses) to meet my battle line requirements, drop the extra squad of tree revs and add in a squad of Kurnoth Hunters with bows to really take advantage of the Hurricanum's +1 to hit rolls.  Assuming I mathed right again, that should clock you in at 1980 points.

 

[Andy89]

Yes, just checked and your math is right Craptrain. Thanks for the suggestion! Until i can buy more kurnoth hunters i will drop the revenants and take 6 tree kin which gives me 2000 pts.

Sent from my LG-K210 using Tapatalk

[Mirage8112]

On 12/6/2016 at 9:02 AM, Nico said:

Agreed. The issue being that they are only going to make changes to the GH (so points and FAQs for abilities) rather than rewriting the Warscrolls (based on past form). Tree Revenants could do with hitting on 3+ instead of 4+ or some kind of extra offensive ability to justify them as hit and run troops.

I've said a number of times that Tree-revenants are extremely useful units in game and well-pointed for what they do. Everybody wants them to be faster, slightly more squishy Kurnoth hunters; which we don't need. We already have Kurnoth Hunters with greatswords who are very effective at shredding light troops and operating as small-footprint, highly-mobile shock troops.

Interestingly enough, I found the Revenants extremely useful in a game last week vs. Stormcast. We were playing 2000pts, Border war. 

I made a play for the two center objectives early, investing pretty heavily in holding them. 6 Scythe hunters and a Wytch on my left, 20 dryads, spites, a TLA and TL on my right. I deployed 2 units of 5 tree-revenants in the back, with the edges of the units spaced roughly 16 inches apart.  The spacing made it difficult for him to lightning strike anything into the back as he had to stay 9" away from any enemy models, and since I could space the Revenants in the units out (as long as I maintained coherency) It gave me a 48" no deploy bubble around the objective. That worked relatively well, until he used his Knight Vexilor to teleport a unit of Retributors right into the Revenants faces. Those two units of revenants held off those retributors for 3 solid turns. No spectacular roles on either side.

A few things were noted. First, I was able to position them relative to a nearby piece of terrain so that he wasn't able to get all of them into combat, even with pile-in. That helped a lot and having 10 models to work with made it much easier. Secondly, 2 units of 5 rather than 1 unit of 10 meant I was getting twice as many re-rolls per phase, and it also meant 2 scions vs 1. Those protector glaives with their damage 2, rend -1 did plenty of work. Likewise forcing him to split his attacks between 2 units meant split casualties, which made battleshock much more forgiving (especially with two rerolls). Eventually, he chewed through both units, but not before losing 2 full retributors and losing 2 wounds off a third. Losing the objective would have cost me the game. But thankfully they were able to hold the line until I could bring reinforcements. 

Tree-revenants are highly underestimated by our competitors, and under appreciated by most Sylvaneth players. They don't fit into every play style; this is totally true. Some players are loathe to lose units in a game (and to be fair, I do lose them every game.) And other plays need to see units kill double their weight in points to consider them "good". They do have a rather narrow role, but they are amazeballs at it. 

I won't argue against a buff if GW wanted to give it to us, but in truth I don't we think need a buff. Beastclaw raiders and khorne bloodbound are all "point and click" armies. They're at the top because they're easy to play and very forgiving of mistakes. We're already a top-tier army that takes finesse to play to our full potential. If we make a mistake in positioning we can go down hard, but if we're careful, nothing can touch us (save the wrath of the dice gods.) 

I'd put my Sylvaneth against any other army in AoS. If I lost, I'd know it's because I was outplayed; not because the my trees couldn't hang with the big boys. 
 

[Nico]

Quote

That worked relatively well, until he used his Knight Vexilor to teleport a unit of Retributors right into the Revenants faces. Those two units of revenants held off those retributors for 3 solid turns. No spectacular roles on either side.

Did he forget the automatic D3 mortal wounds on (both) units from the Vexillor - 6 inch aoe? That should have been 2 dead and a Battleshock test straight off the bat!

Presumably he didn't put the Maces down closest to the Tree Revenants (despite being able to deploy them at will), was he worried about the quasi-deadly terrain effect of Wyldwoods (assuming that was the cover you were in). Do you make your opponent roll for the specific models (which you are probably entitled to do - so that their special weapons are at risk)?

I agree that Tree Revenants have a role, I just rarely find that role happening. I like having exactly one unit in the army as a threat - more than that and I would feel that I'm wasting the points vs Dryads. The fabled "artillery and cannon crew" have mysteriously morphed into large 12 wound monsters with a -1 to hit in melee debuff, healing and 6 wounds on a 2+ with effective range of up to 34 inches or if you're lucky a 6 wound Warp Lightning Cannon. Old style artillery are just an auto-loss vs Kurnoth Hunters, pop up in the Wood, reliably shoot off the crew. 

Quote

Tree-revenants are highly underestimated by our competitors, and under appreciated by most Sylvaneth players. They don't fit into every play style; this is totally true. Some players are loathe to lose units in a game (and to be fair, I do lose them every game.) And other plays need to see units kill double their weight in points to consider them "good". They do have a rather narrow role, but they are amazeballs at it. 

This is true. Some players are going to leave units of fast cavalry or wizards exposed at the back or flank and you're going to hit pay dirt (perhaps after a turn or so).

You're also right that they scale up really badly (or to put it more generously - are optimised at 5 models) - because of the Champion and because of the reroll mechanic as you say (and Battleshock risk).

I'm not one of the players who suffers from a fear of sacrificing units to score objectives - see here - where my basic plan was to kill all the enemy threats turn one while losing 800 points of my army, then I would sweep up with Gorderp, the First of Croydron:

 

[Mirage8112]

7 hours ago, Nico said:

13 hours ago, Mirage8112 said:

That worked relatively well, until he used his Knight Vexilor to teleport a unit of Retributors right into the Revenants faces. Those two units of revenants held off those retributors for 3 solid turns. No spectacular roles on either side.

Did he forget the automatic D3 mortal wounds on (both) units from the Vexillor - 6 inch aoe? That should have been 2 dead and a Battleshock test straight off the bat!

Presumably he didn't put the Maces down closest to the Tree Revenants (despite being able to deploy them at will), was he worried about the quasi-deadly terrain effect of Wyldwoods (assuming that was the cover you were in). Do you make your opponent roll for the specific models (which you are probably entitled to do - so that their special weapons are at risk)?

Nope he didn't forget. Since I had the first turn I had moved the second unit of revenants in about 5" away from the first who were still spread out in a line. When they dropped, He was only in range of 1 unit. It's also not automatic, it's on a roll of 4+, and I don't remember if he failed the roll, or just rolled low for the D3. (I'm leaning towards missing the 4+ roll.) And yep, starsoul maces were in effect. But as I said before, we was only able to get 3 models into combat, and in this case the starsoul mace didn't help him all that much. I'de venture to say he probably would have done better leaving the model with the mace in the back. Lightning hammers would do more damage to Revenants on statistically average rolls. But everybody loves those maces.... and the terrain piece was just some generic ruins. I had spent my woods on holding the two middle objectives. Also, we always play rules as written, the opponent can take allocate wounds to any model he wants.
 

7 hours ago, Nico said:

I agree that Tree Revenants have a role, I just rarely find that role happening. I like having exactly one unit in the army as a threat - more than that and I would feel that I'm wasting the points vs Dryads. 

I don't understand this. You mean you like having one unit in your army that's designed to run around killing things? Or you like to have one unit in the enemy army a threat? Can you clarify?
 

7 hours ago, Nico said:

The fabled "artillery and cannon crew" have mysteriously morphed into large 12 wound monsters with a -1 to hit in melee debuff, healing and 6 wounds on a 2+ with effective range of up to 34 inches or if you're lucky a 6 wound Warp Lightning Cannon. Old style artillery are just an auto-loss vs Kurnoth Hunters, pop up in the Wood, reliably shoot off the crew. 

Yep Kurnoth hunters are awesome. No doubt about that. In fact Kurnoth hunters are arguably the best unit in the book. But Kurnoth hunters can't be taken as battleline. In a lot of battalions, tree-revenants are mandatory. It's smart to learn how to sue them when the situation arises, or how to create situations where they can be of use. Kurnoth hunters are aces, but they an be everywhere and do everything all at the same time.   
 

7 hours ago, Nico said:

This is true. Some players are going to leave units of fast cavalry or wizards exposed at the back or flank and you're going to hit pay dirt (perhaps after a turn or so). 

You're also right that they scale up really badly (or to put it more generously - are optimised at 5 models) - because of the Champion and because of the reroll mechanic as you say (and Battleshock risk).

 
I think 5 is a good number. Especially because it forces target units to split their attacks. That with the double rerolls means they actually do a d event job of putting wounds through. I probably wouldn't put then against anything with a save of better than 4+ and expect them to be anything more than a speedbump. 

Although using two squads as a speedbump is actually a pretty effective blocking tactic; an often overlooked one. If you're careful in you're set up, you can get an extra turn or two of shooting vs a Frostlord before he crashes into your front lines. Assuming you can pick of 2 wounds per turn (and get the first round free) that could make the difference between eating 6 mortal wounds and eating D3 mortal wounds from frost-wreathed ice if he's on a thundertusk. It also means if he's riding a stonehorn you can use a speed bump to take the D6 mortal wounds and then charge in your own turn. 

There's lots of fun things to do with revenants if you're creative with how you use them. They remind me of great eagles from WHFB. Lots of utility that goes beyond stats.  

[Nico]

Quote

Nope he didn't forget. Since I had the first turn I had moved the second unit of revenants in about 5" away from the first who were still spread out in a line. When they dropped, He was only in range of 1 unit. It's also not automatic, it's on a roll of 4+, and I don't remember if he failed the roll, or just rolled low for the D3. (I'm leaning towards missing the 4+ roll.) And yep, starsoul maces were in effect. But as I said before, we was only able to get 3 models into combat, and in this case the starsoul mace didn't help him all that much. I'de venture to say he probably would have done better leaving the model with the mace in the back. Lightning hammers would do more damage to Revenants on statistically average rolls. But everybody loves those maces.... and the terrain piece was just some generic ruins. I had spent my woods on holding the two middle objectives. Also, we always play rules as written, the opponent can take allocate wounds to any model he wants.

This story just seems too good to be representative. It does seem that good positioning on your part was pivotal, but with the 2 Maces in combat (which he could have freely positioned to be in combat), that's 4 mortal wounds on average (in a situation where rolling less than 3 mortal wounds takes some real effort). 3 dead is already a battleshock test where a 4+ is a model fleeing away. Or do you mean that he only had 1 models in combat and you had 2? Stringing out a unit to attack two units can be a risky thing to do (unless it's 30 buffed Stormvermin).

Quote

I think 5 is a good number. Especially because it forces target units to split their attacks. That with the double rerolls means they actually do a d event job of putting wounds through. I probably wouldn't put then against anything with a save of better than 4+ and expect them to be anything more than a speedbump. 

I was agreeing with you that they are decent as units of 5.

Quote

I don't understand this. You mean you like having one unit in your army that's designed to run around killing things? Or you like to have one unit in the enemy army a threat? Can you clarify?

I mean that I will take exactly one unit of them as one of the Battleline choices unless I'm taking a Forest Spirits battalion (i.e. 3-4 units of Dryads) in which case I would take zero. This is because it's rarely practical to take 3 units of 20 Dryads and I hate taking units of 10 Dryads (because of the extra point of save for 12 or more; and the extra point of effective bravery from having 10 or more models), so 5 Revenants becomes a better option. So 20 Dryads, 20 Dryads and 5 Revenants seems like a good default (subject to battalion requirements).

I've seen a Stonelord do an about turn around 20 Ghouls in a line (not a brilliant line but still a line) and still charge a unit in my deployment zone. Against normal monsters Tree Revenants could be an effective speed bump as you say (e.g. against Mournguls, which are pretty meh speed and a huge headache for Sylvaneth to deal with - "hello Dryads - welcome to the land of -2 to hit").