Let's Chat Sylvaneth

[Nico]

Quote

Why the spites instead of going for 20 dryads in the dryad unit, I know I'm biased against any revenants and you seem to like them a lot.. but still I just don't see any benefit in the trade, in damage output (well maybe spites are slightly better here to start.. but after getting 2 wounds the dryads surely do more damage and after 5 wounds....), wounds, saves etc etc. And ofcourse.. and tying into my previous 2 posts... just BODIES for objectives.

The Spites are there solely for the Whispers in the Dark ability, which lets them force enemy units to roll 2 dice for their battleshock tests and pick the higher one. They can do this from the back of a Wyldwood to units within 3" of that Wyldwood. It's an experiment.

Also I figure my opponent might panic having no clue what the hell the unit is and overreact to it.

[Cerve]

1 hour ago, Nico said:

Treekin are bonkers good for their cost - 12 wounds for 100 points and a 4+ save. It's reroll hits rather than +1, but that's still an actual offensive synergy, which is a rare sight. 2" range as well.

Plus, the get another healing spell to any Sylvaneth Wizard if I'm correct.

+Gnarlroot you will have 2 Healing spells+1 regen spell. That sounds nasty

[Aezeal]

I was trying to create a spreadsheet to back this up vs different saves (but didn't have time yet) but maybe they even do more damage than hunters? 5 treekin vs 3 hunters? How do some of the regular Ogors compare against hunters point for point)

 

BTW I cheated during the tourney then, rr 1 is way worse than +1.

[Aezeal]

6 hours ago, Cerve said:

Plus, the get another healing spell to any Sylvaneth Wizard if I'm correct.

+Gnarlroot you will have 2 Healing spells+1 regen spell. That sounds nasty

The healing is on the treekin only though, not multipurpose. And worse than regrowth. But it's a nice option to have on non regrowth casters for free.

[swarmofseals]

I've done the math on Treekin vs Kurnoths. 

Swords: 11.56 rend 1 damage +1.5 mortals
Scythes: 8.67 rend 2 damage +1.5 mortals
Tree-kin: 7 rend 0 damage 

Kurnoths (thicket): 60 effective wounds (rend 0) , 34 effective wounds (rend 1), 21.6 effective wounds (rend 2), 15 effective wounds (rend 3 or mortal) 
Kurnoths (no thicket): 30 effective wounds (rend 0), 22.5 effective wounds (rend 1), 18 effective wounds (rend 2), 15 effective wounds (rend 3 or mortal) 
Tree-kin: 24 effective wounds (rend 0), 18 effective wounds (rend 1), 14.4 effective wounds (rend 2), 12 effective wounds (rend 3 or mortal) 

The thing is, Kurnoths cost 180 points while the Tree-kin only cost 100. 

Points per unsaved wound caused (Swords/Scythes/Tree-kin):

No Save: 13.78/17.69/14.28  (these are also the points per damage before save against units with unrendable saves)

6+ Save: 13.78/17.69/17.15

5+ Save: 16.17/17.69/21.43

4+ Save: 19.54/20.62/28.57

3+ Save: 24.73/24.73/42.92

2+ Save: 33.64/30.82/85.69

Note that if you add in armor rerolls it will tend to favor the Kurnoths, while if you add special saves or saves against mortals only it will tend to favor Tree-kin. There are too many combinations for me to do the math on all of the possibilities!

 

Looking back at defense, you get the following points per effective wound (Kurnoths with Thicket/Kurnoths without Thicket/Tree-Kin)

Rend 0: 3/6/4.16

Rend 1: 5.29/8/5.55

Rend 2: 8.33/10/6.94

Rend 3+/Mortal: 12/12/8.33

 

Summary:

Offensively, Tree-Kin are quite comparable to Kurnoths against very soft targets. They are actually more efficient than Scythe Kurnoths against no save, 6+ save, or unrendable saves. Sword Kurnoths are most efficient against saves of 4+ or worse, while Scythes tie at 3+ and pull ahead at 2+. Tree-kin start to fall noticeably behind against 4+ saves and really suffer against 3+ and 2+ saves. Note also that the extra inch of range that Scythes feature has extra utility given the pile-in restrictions of the thicket ability.

Defensively, Tree-Kin are generally the most efficient. The only case where Kurnoths are clearly better is in melee using their thicket ability against rend 0 attacks. Thicketed Kurnoths also have a slight edge against rend 1 in melee. Against all ranged attacks Tree-kin have a major edge, and they also have a substantial edge against heavy melee attacks. 

 

Conclusion:

Kurnoth Hunters have a clear edge over Tree-Kin damagewise in most situations. Against any real armor Tree-Kin fall behind, dramatically so against very heavy armor. Tree-Kin do have a slight edge against super light troops, however. It's also worth noting that Kurnoth Hunters have a higher damage density which is quite important. In damage/area, Kurnoths far exceed Tree-Kin. Meanwhile, Tree-Kin are better than Dryads offensively point for point, dramatically so on your opponent's turn. 

Defensively, Tree-Kin occupy a unique space in the Sylvaneth roster. In a roster full of troops that are strong against weak attacks and soft to heavy rend and mortal wounds, Tree-Kin are the exception. They are far more efficient than anything else on the Sylvaneth roster against these types of attacks. They are quite good against light attacks too, just not as much so as thicketed Kurnoths. 

Ideally, Tree-kin will excel against glass cannon enemy units that lack armor but feature rendy or mortal wound damage. Aside from that, they have a clear battlefield role in holding the enemy's heavy hitters and keeping them away from your more vulnerable targets.

 

 

 

[Mirage8112]

 

58 minutes ago, swarmofseals said:

I've done the math on Treekin vs Kurnoths. 

Swords: 11.56 rend 1 damage +1.5 mortals
Scythes: 8.67 rend 2 damage +1.5 mortals
Tree-kin: 7 rend 0 damage 

Kurnoths (thicket): 60 effective wounds (rend 0) , 34 effective wounds (rend 1), 21.6 effective wounds (rend 2), 15 effective wounds (rend 3 or mortal) 
Kurnoths (no thicket): 30 effective wounds (rend 0), 22.5 effective wounds (rend 1), 18 effective wounds (rend 2), 15 effective wounds (rend 3 or mortal) 
Tree-kin: 24 effective wounds (rend 0), 18 effective wounds (rend 1), 14.4 effective wounds (rend 2), 12 effective wounds (rend 3 or mortal) 

The thing is, Kurnoths cost 180 points while the Tree-kin only cost 100. 

Points per unsaved wound caused (Swords/Scythes/Tree-kin):

No Save: 13.78/17.69/14.28  (these are also the points per damage before save against units with unrendable saves)

6+ Save: 13.78/17.69/17.15

5+ Save: 16.17/17.69/21.43

4+ Save: 19.54/20.62/28.57

3+ Save: 24.73/24.73/42.92

2+ Save: 33.64/30.82/85.69

Note that if you add in armor rerolls it will tend to favor the Kurnoths, while if you add special saves or saves against mortals only it will tend to favor Tree-kin. There are too many combinations for me to do the math on all of the possibilities!

 

Looking back at defense, you get the following points per effective wound (Kurnoths with Thicket/Kurnoths without Thicket/Tree-Kin)

Rend 0: 3/6/4.16

Rend 1: 5.29/8/5.55

Rend 2: 8.33/10/6.94

Rend 3+/Mortal: 12/12/8.33

 

Summary:

Offensively, Tree-Kin are quite comparable to Kurnoths against very soft targets. They are actually more efficient than Scythe Kurnoths against no save, 6+ save, or unrendable saves. Sword Kurnoths are most efficient against saves of 4+ or worse, while Scythes tie at 3+ and pull ahead at 2+. Tree-kin start to fall noticeably behind against 4+ saves and really suffer against 3+ and 2+ saves. Note also that the extra inch of range that Scythes feature has extra utility given the pile-in restrictions of the thicket ability.

Defensively, Tree-Kin are generally the most efficient. The only case where Kurnoths are clearly better is in melee using their thicket ability against rend 0 attacks. Thicketed Kurnoths also have a slight edge against rend 1 in melee. Against all ranged attacks Tree-kin have a major edge, and they also have a substantial edge against heavy melee attacks. 

 

Conclusion:

Kurnoth Hunters have a clear edge over Tree-Kin damagewise in most situations. Against any real armor Tree-Kin fall behind, dramatically so against very heavy armor. Tree-Kin do have a slight edge against super light troops, however. It's also worth noting that Kurnoth Hunters have a higher damage density which is quite important. In damage/area, Kurnoths far exceed Tree-Kin. Meanwhile, Tree-Kin are better than Dryads offensively point for point, dramatically so on your opponent's turn. 

Defensively, Tree-Kin occupy a unique space in the Sylvaneth roster. In a roster full of troops that are strong against weak attacks and soft to heavy rend and mortal wounds, Tree-Kin are the exception. They are far more efficient than anything else on the Sylvaneth roster against these types of attacks. They are quite good against light attacks too, just not as much so as thicketed Kurnoths. 

Ideally, Tree-kin will excel against glass cannon enemy units that lack armor but feature rendy or mortal wound damage. Aside from that, they have a clear battlefield role in holding the enemy's heavy hitters and keeping them away from your more vulnerable targets.

 

 

 

+1

[Nico]

Nice work. I take it that you've included the reroll hits of 1 for the Treekin?

I gather that they were on 40mm square bases, and that these convert to 50mm round bases - so the same as Kurnoths? I looked at Ben's spreadsheet.

 

[Cerve]

We have to consider too that these things cost just 100 points x3. 

9 of these things are 300 points! Which incorporate a personal healing spells (amazing!) for any wizard+reroll of 1s to hit. Sure, of course Haunters will hit harder, but Treekins are SO cheap! I mean...100 points? Really? 

I will try those guys, they seems funny to use.

[Aezeal]

Yeah the points per damage works.. I'd just have calced for 5 treekin and be done with it though

Thanks for the maths. So treekin are good if you have 100 points left over or want a real tarpit unit (most wounds/points In our whole army and with a good save) but Kurnoths are better damage dealers.  And I'd like to repeats Nico's question about the RR 1 to hit.

[Aezeal]

4 hours ago, Nico said:

Nice work. I take it that you've included the reroll hits of 1 for the Treekin?

I gather that they were on 40mm square bases, and that these convert to 50mm round bases - so the same as Kurnoths? I looked at Ben's spreadsheet.

 

I just got a few free (old, didn't sell) magnetized 40 mm round bases from my shop.. and I've got 3 alternative treeking lying around.. think putting them on round 40's would be a problem?

(  http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?401007-Rasti-Studio-Dwarf-Warriors-and-Forest-Spirits  )

These are the models, scroll down past the dwarves. Wanted to use them in 8th but never got around to basing them. I fear he's not selling anymore cus I couldn't find his site.

[swarmofseals]

6 hours ago, Nico said:

Nice work. I take it that you've included the reroll hits of 1 for the Treekin?

Yes, I did. They'd be a little worse on offense without that, of course. 

[Kaylethia]

Hey everyone.

I've read through most of the posts here, and I thought I'd see if any of you had input on an army I'm working on. Both lists clock in at 1000 points since there's a local 1k tournament coming up at the end of May, that I'm scrambling to get ready for.

Here's my current setup:

Allegiance: Sylvaneth

Leaders
Branchwych (100)
- General
- Trait: Gift of Ghyran - Sylvaneth
- Artefact: Acorn of the Ages 
- Deepwood Spell: Regrowth

Battleline
20 x Dryads (240)
5 x Tree-Revenants (100)
- Sylvaneth Battleline
10 x Dryads (120)

Units
3 x Kurnoth Hunters (180)
- Greatbows

Behemoths
Treelord (260)

Scenery
Sylvaneth Wyldwood - Sylvaneth Allegiance (0)

Total: 1000/1000

 

And here's the list I'm working on:

Allegiance: Sylvaneth

Leaders
Treelord Ancient (300)
- General
- Trait: Gnarled Warrior - Sylvaneth
- Artefact: The Oaken Armour 
- Deepwood Spell: The Reaping
Branchwych (100)
- Artefact: Ranu's Lamentiri 
- Deepwood Spell: Regrowth
Loremaster (100)
- Artefact: Talisman of Blinding Light

Battleline
10 x Dryads (120)
5 x Tree-Revenants (100)
- Sylvaneth Battleline

Units
3 x Kurnoth Hunters (180)
- Greatbows

Battalions
Household (20)
Gnarlroot Wargrove (80)

Scenery
Sylvaneth Wyldwood - Sylvaneth Allegiance (0)

Total: 1000/1000

 

My current list is mostly getting the job done, but I run into problems against Disposessed (probably because the guy playing them is very good) and their beard wall. Another problem is having only one hero in Three Places of Power. I've played this list a few times without battleplans, twice against Disposessed, twice against Ironjawz and once against Khorne Daemons. In my experience, this one's grindy. You might get lucky and snipe a Warboss in your first shooting phase (happened once), but more often than not, you win by grinding it out.

With the second list, I think I'm a bit reliant on casting, as well as having less models for objective play (21 vs 40 models) and I don't really know what artefact to pick for the Loremaster or if I could have a better spell loadout. I haven't played it yet, but this one seems more aggressive and more prone to beginner mistakes, although I could possibly hold out through the Gnarlroot spell and healing.

If anyone has played lists like these before, I'd love to get some input on these lists and if there's any possible issues I should at least be aware of. 

[Gozzy]

Hi guys, 

I have a question regarding the Massive impailing talon attack from the Treelords/Ancients. 

It states that once you inflict a wound, roll a dice and if the result equals more than the remain wounds the model is slain. 

Having a discussion with an opponent - they suggested that you roll the dice before allocating the wound caused by the talon and before an armour save is taken against the wound. 

He was referencing the "inflict" word, as inflicting wounds is different stage to allocating the wound? 

I wondered what you guys thought. 

 

Cheers

[Zhorphorus]

9 minutes ago, Gozzy said:

Hi guys, 

I have a question regarding the Massive impailing talon attack from the Treelords/Ancients. 

It states that once you inflict a wound, roll a dice and if the result equals more than the remain wounds the model is slain. 

Having a discussion with an opponent - they suggested that you roll the dice before allocating the wound caused by the talon and before an armour save is taken against the wound. 

He was referencing the "inflict" word, as inflicting wounds is different stage to allocating the wound? 

I wondered what you guys thought. 

 

Cheers

The way I've always played it is that if you cause a wound, they roll their armour save. If they pass, no wound is inflicted and as such no roll. If they fail then they take 1 wound instantly (from the damage of the attack) and then you roll a dice and if the dice exceeds the wounds left (i.e. 3 wounds left, 4+ they are removed) then they are removed as per the rule

From a logical sense, if the attack is stopped by their armour or misses/fails to wound why would they suffer negative effects? Also that you would deal the wound (as such inflicting) then roll the dice needing to exceed

[Aezeal]

1 hour ago, Zhorphorus said:

The way I've always played it is that if you cause a wound, they roll their armour save. If they pass, no wound is inflicted and as such no roll. If they fail then they take 1 wound instantly (from the damage of the attack) and then you roll a dice and if the dice exceeds the wounds left (i.e. 3 wounds left, 4+ they are removed) then they are removed as per the rule

From a logical sense, if the attack is stopped by their armour or misses/fails to wound why would they suffer negative effects? Also that you would deal the wound (as such inflicting) then roll the dice needing to exceed

Played it like this too. First remove wound, THEN roll the roll of the ability that is triggered by doing the wound (seems logical)  which needs to exceed the then remaining number of wounds.

[SpiritofHokuto]

On 4/17/2017 at 2:17 PM, Aezeal said:

I just got a few free (old, didn't sell) magnetized 40 mm round bases from my shop.. and I've got 3 alternative treeking lying around.. think putting them on round 40's would be a problem?

(  http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?401007-Rasti-Studio-Dwarf-Warriors-and-Forest-Spirits  )

These are the models, scroll down past the dwarves. Wanted to use them in 8th but never got around to basing them. I fear he's not selling anymore cus I couldn't find his site.

I'm thinking I'll invest in some of the Raging Heroes Tree Warriors as they're very nice models, and have a similar aesthetic to Dryads. Am I right in thinking that Treekin should be on 40mm round bases?

[swarmofseals]

On 4/19/2017 at 2:14 AM, Kaylethia said:

Hey everyone.

I've read through most of the posts here, and I thought I'd see if any of you had input on an army I'm working on. Both lists clock in at 1000 points since there's a local 1k tournament coming up at the end of May, that I'm scrambling to get ready for.

Here's my current setup:

List 1

List 2

 

My current list is mostly getting the job done, but I run into problems against Disposessed (probably because the guy playing them is very good) and their beard wall. Another problem is having only one hero in Three Places of Power. I've played this list a few times without battleplans, twice against Disposessed, twice against Ironjawz and once against Khorne Daemons. In my experience, this one's grindy. You might get lucky and snipe a Warboss in your first shooting phase (happened once), but more often than not, you win by grinding it out.

With the second list, I think I'm a bit reliant on casting, as well as having less models for objective play (21 vs 40 models) and I don't really know what artefact to pick for the Loremaster or if I could have a better spell loadout. I haven't played it yet, but this one seems more aggressive and more prone to beginner mistakes, although I could possibly hold out through the Gnarlroot spell and healing.

If anyone has played lists like these before, I'd love to get some input on these lists and if there's any possible issues I should at least be aware of. 

 

I think you are spot on about the objective problems. The first list struggles with Three Places like you said, and the second list is really going to have a tough time playing the objective game in other scenarios. A smart opponent will just take out your dryads and tree-revs and you will be in a lot of trouble. 

Are you allowed to take an artefact from the Order allegiance section on the Loremaster? I had always thought that if you were using a different set of allegiance abilities from the sub allegiance then you'd lose access to the GA: Order artefacts. Regardless, I'd probably drop the loremaster. The TLA isn't that great offensively, and you're spending a full 10% of your points just to buff it. If you really want another wizard I'd consider the skink star priest or dark elf sorceress. Both have powerful -1 to hit debuff spells that really stack up nicely with the groundshaking stomp. I'd also consider taking Briarsheath instead of Oaken Armor. You can still mystic shield to a 2+ and the -1 to hit is really nice. I don't know what you expect to face, but hit penalties are fantastic against many of the du jour strats like Skyfires, Kunnin' Rukk and Longstrike Crossbows. I'd also drop the Ranu's Lamentiri for Acorn and switch Regrowth to the TLA. The Reaping is nice but it's really only great with the Silverwood Circlet and you really want to make sure that your Regrowth caster stays alive. 

Honestly I think you might be better off splitting the difference between lists 1 and 2 with something like:

 

Treelord Ancient - Gnarled Warrior, Briarsheath, Regrowth

Branchwych - whatever spell you want, probably Verdant Blessing

2x10 Dryads

2x3 Kurnoth Hunters (whatever loadout you want)

 

OR

Treelord Ancient - Gnarled Warrior, Briarsheath, Regrowth

Drycha Hamadreth - again whichever spell, probably Verdant Blessing

2x10 Dryads

1x3 Kurnoth Hunters (again whichever loadout you want)

 

Both of these lists give you two heroes for three places of power while also giving you a bit more beef and some extra battleline models for the objective game.

 

[swarmofseals]

1 hour ago, SpiritofHokuto said:

I'm thinking I'll invest in some of the Raging Heroes Tree Warriors as they're very nice models, and have a similar aesthetic to Dryads. Am I right in thinking that Treekin should be on 40mm round bases?

I agree that the Tree Warriors are just about the best thing on the market for non-GW treekin. That said I still prefer converting em! There are some nice conversions out there that really only use spare dryad bits. Now with Kurnoth Hunters, Revenants (and even the treelord kit) we've got even more great bits to work with!

I don't think anyone could complain too hard about 40mm rounds, but to be safe I might go with 50mm. Other kits that used to be on 40mm squares have been rebased on 50mm rounds (for example the BCR Yhettis).

[Gozzy]

14 hours ago, Zhorphorus said:

The way I've always played it is that if you cause a wound, they roll their armour save. If they pass, no wound is inflicted and as such no roll. If they fail then they take 1 wound instantly (from the damage of the attack) and then you roll a dice and if the dice exceeds the wounds left (i.e. 3 wounds left, 4+ they are removed) then they are removed as per the rule

From a logical sense, if the attack is stopped by their armour or misses/fails to wound why would they suffer negative effects? Also that you would deal the wound (as such inflicting) then roll the dice needing to exceed

That's the way I have played it until the game the game the other day. 

It makes sense to roll the dice after the wounds have been allocated. 

Thanks for input guys

 

[Kaylethia]

11 hours ago, swarmofseals said:

Snip.

Thanks for the input, I'll try to reply roughly in order.

1. According to scrollbuilder and the GHB errata, you can mix and match: "You can choose to take either the allegiance abilities for the allegiance your army belongs to, or the allegiance abilities for the Grand Alliance your army belongs to." and artefacts are allegiance abilities. The example I found was Ironjawz getting their battleline units through Ironjawz allegiance, and their traits etc. through GA Destruction.
2. Opponents that I've played and will be playing again: Khorne Daemons, Disposessed and Ironjaws. I know there's a guy playing a cleaner version of mixed BCR (one Thundertusk, no battallion), a couple of SCE players as well. Since the local scene is pretty small, people seem to be running fluffier lists. 
3. Loremaster: I misread how the spell affects only a single model. However, I figured I could slap the spell on a Hunter if needed. You d ohave a point about how I wouldn't be getting the most out of it this way. The other options I was considering was a Battlemage (Wildform on the TLA or Hunters or Miasma for horde armies) or another unit of Tree-Revenants, since they would fit, points-wise.
4. Briarsheath: you're right. I was thinking about it, and marked down the other.
5. Spells etc.: I have time to test these out, I think I'll try your suggestions first thing. The acorn is fantastic though.

I like both lists, but I don't know if I'll manage to build and paint everything I'm still missing. I still have a backlog of 14 dryads (for the first list), 2 hunters, 5 revenants and finishing up my treelord as well as buying, building and painting wyldwoods. If I find the finances for it, I'll get another unit of hunters, they've been a pain for my opponent every game.

I'll try out the second list once or twice, but I think I'll stick to the first list for now. One bad scenario out of six sounds pretty good compared to five out of six.

[Aezeal]

So.. apart from the fact I don't have more hunters and I do have a Durthu.. is there any reason to take him instead of 6 hunters?

[Paul G]

Three places? Having him on the board is a big psychological thing too, draws a lot of fire that's for sure! The wound bouncing ability can be great too


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Cerve]

2 hours ago, Aezeal said:

So.. apart from the fact I don't have more hunters and I do have a Durthu.. is there any reason to take him instead of 6 hunters?

Mmm...depends. Instead of, I guess not. Added to, yes. He helps the army during Battleshock tests, protects you Sylvaneth heroes, and he still an Hero! So he will bring an artifact. 

Be sure to fill the table with almost 2 Wyldwoods. He really needs those +D3 attacks in CC. 

 

 

PS: try the Free Spirits Battalion

[swarmofseals]

2 hours ago, Aezeal said:

So.. apart from the fact I don't have more hunters and I do have a Durthu.. is there any reason to take him instead of 6 hunters?

Curious about this, so lets do some mathhammer! 

Offense -

No wyldwood: 4 rend 1 shooting, 8.55 rend 2 melee

Wyldwood: 4 rend 1 shooting, 13.88 rend 2 melee

 

Analysis: Compared to Kurnoth Hunters' offensive output (see my mathhammer a few posts ago), Durthu clearly falls short without proximity to a wyldwood. When close to a wyldwood he pulls much closer. I also didn't factor in the potential instakill from the talon attack, so that's a little extra weight on Durthu's side. Another point in his favor is that he represents a greater offensive density. You may not be able to get all 6 Kurnoths in range consistently, particularly if you are using the thicket ability. If you are spreading them out, then you may not have them both in combat all the time, so Durthu pulls ahead if you only have 3 Kurnoths in combat regardless of the wyldwood. A point against Durthu is the fact that he loses offensive potency much faster as he takes damage than the Kurnoths do. This is mitigated to some extent by the fact the Durthu is a better target for the Regrowth spell, although the Kurnoths can benefit nicely from Verdurous Harmony as well.

 

Defense - (assuming Oaken Armor, and reroll 1's, no gnarled warrior)

Durthu Effective Wounds:

vs. Rend 0: 431.65 

vs. Rend 1: 54 

vs. Rend 2: 28.78

vs. Rend 3: 19.63

vs Mortal: 12

 

Kurnoths Effective Wounds (thicket/no thicket with reroll 1's):

Rend 0: 120/71.94

Rend 1: 67.57/49.09

Rend 2: 43.23/35.05

Rend 3+/Mortal: 30/30

 

Analysis: Durthu is effectively immune to rend 0 attacks, far exceeding the effective wounds of the Kurnoths. Against Rend 1, the Kurnoths are better with thicket but worse without (so better in melee, worse against shooting). Against rend 2 the Kurnoths pull ahead in both situations (substantially better in melee, slightly better at range) and against mortal wounds or rend 3+ attacks the Kurnoths are far better.  This does not take into consideration Durthu's stomp ability, which is a serious bonus in melee. If you factor that in I suspect Durthu will pull a lot closer to the Kurnoths in the high rend categories. Kurnoths don't need to worry much about bravery but they will occasionally lose a model to battleshock. This will never happen to Durthu. Kurnoths can benefit from cover, whereas Durthu can't.

 

Utility Analysis: The Kurnoths help spread your command ability, while Durthu gives a bravery bonus and can tank wounds with his bodyguard ability. The stomp bonus also functions as a support ability. Durthu is a solid hero for Three Places of Power, while Kurnoth Hunters are generally not enough to capture an objective in the other scenarios. They can add models to help get you up to the 5 model threshold, however. 6 Kurnoths also take up more space than Durthu in total and can be spread out if taken as 2x3 units, giving them an edge in board control. 

 

 

Summary - The Kurnoths are likely better offensively in terms of raw numbers, but Durthu does have an edge in terms of damage density. If fewer than the full number of Kurnoths can get into combat for whatever reason, Durthu pulls ahead. Defensively, Durthu is far better against rend 0 attacks and a little better against rend 1 ranged attacks. He's worse against higher rend and way worse against mortal wounds. That said, he has significantly more utility and his stomp ability can make his defense look a lot better. If you make Durthu your general, then he gains a lot of effective wounds against rend 1, but this also stops you from getting access to the Ancient's command ability. Effective wounds against Rend 1 goes up to 71.85, while Rend 0 drops to 71.85. This is probably not a worthwhile trade-off. I think there is a bit of a paradox to Spirit of Durthu. Defensively, he is best against ****** attacks while offensively he is better against very heavy armor. So his ideal target is a unit with super heavy armor and pillowfists. That is a pretty rare sight in AoS. It seems to me that high rend + low armor and high rend + high armor are both more common than high armor + low rend. It's also noteworthy that Durthu costs 11% more points more than 2 units of Kurnoths. 

 

Conclusion: I think these two options are close enough that you could justify taking either, but my instinct is that the Kurnoths will be better in more situations. If you think you can get a LOT of value out of the bodyguard ability, then Durthu might be a better choice. That also means committing a lot of points into one area of the board, which could prove to be a liability in some scenarios. 

[Aezeal]

Thanks for the numbers, it's basicly what I thought already but it's always good to KNOW instead of just relying on hunches.

Having said that I'll be building a list now.

I used to play 1500 points and me and my most regular opponent decided that 2000 points probably wouldn't be much more troops (at least not on my side) and maybe even a shorter game if I don't use a gnarlroot list (the hero/magic phases annoy him).

So gonna build a 2K list  have limited models at the moment.

I think the core will have to be

CORE (battleline + musthaves) 

- 2x20 dryads

-  5 tree revenants ( I'm not a fan of revenants but I don't have more dryads I think (if I even get 40 without placeholders) so my ONLY 5 treerevenants will have to go there.. and they CAN be usefull

- 2 x 3 hunters (my only hunters - swords and scythes - as said somewhere above or in another topic: while bow sniping certainly has it;s uses I seem to loose to much points early in the game - turn 1 and 2 for sure and sometimes even turn 3 before I've killed enough (my stuff survives) and can start scoring myself.

So that is 700 points with battleline covered (and no more dryads, revenants or hunters available). The problem next is what to do with the remaining points. I've promised not to go gnarlroot but I would like to have another battalion... but I won't be able to do free spirits (at all, not enough hunters) or forest folk.

RESERVES:

I have 3 treekin and could use 3 alternative treekin if I need more troops (2 x 100) , I also have a Durthu (400), a TLA (300), Drycha (280),  Alarielle (620) and 2 wyches. (I will also get a loremaster for my gnarlroot list but I doubt it's worth sacrificing the allegiance in a non gnarlroot list without a hurricanum and a loremaster... and even then it's probably not worth it.) 

Options would be

1. Alarielle, Drycha and Durthu (1300 points in 3 models - only 38 wounds), no TLA general, only 1 artefact but also only 1 target for the artefact. I guess both Alarielle and Drycha would take regrowth with alarielle mostly casting shield/bolt and her damage spell and drycha healing till she dies (or shield/bold whatever A isn't casting)

2. Durthu, TLA, Drycha, 6 treekin, wych: TLA general but still only 1 artefact which really makes either Durthu or TLA quite a bit more vulnerable.

3. Big A, Big D and TLA (yes that is too much points.. but could be done if I delete 10 dryads and take 3 Treekin). Still only 1 artefact unless I somehow get a batallion instead of the treekin.. but don't see how). TLA general MIGHT be worth loosing a few dryads... however drycha's ability to clear a unit of 60 goblins in 1 shooting phase does have it's uses.

4 Alarielle, Durthy and 2x 3 treekin. (similar to 1 but no drycha: gives more targets for A's healing.. but not sure lacking Drycha's unique talents is worth that.

5. .... something with another battallion to give both TLA and Durthu oaken armor seems nice.. but can't really figure it out yet. Even better would be 3 artefacts so a wych could get the acorn for more 100% relilable forests to increase D's offence and buff dryads ( but I doubt I can fit 2 batallions in if I'm not using gnarlroot)

6. something else entirely.

So suggestions what I should pick and what 5 or 6 could be?

I guess my next buys should be either a hurricanum for a gnarlroot list once my opponent has had some rest from gnarlroot or more hunters (to complete freespirits batallion which seems cheap at 40 points for needed movement and an artefact.)