Let's Chat Sylvaneth

[Forestreveries]

I've been asked if rules that let you 'move as if it were the movement phase' and similar actions are allowed full scope as if it was the actual movement phase.  The answer is no.  

E.G. A Sylvaneth unit that has the ability to move in the hero phase (as if it were the movement phase) would be allowed to make a move.  

It WOULD NOT be allowed to walk the hidden paths, or to transport to the table from being deployed off the table.  These would both require it to be the actual movement phase, not just making a move as if it were.

This is Ben Curry's house rule for Blood & Glory. I'm posting this here in case anyone is using any of the relevant formations and attending that event.

Should this be an indication of GW's official view (e.g. what might arise in a new FAQ), then this would kill off a whole swathe of alpha strike lists - the Spirit of Durthu would be borderline unplayable at 400 points. 

Doesn't it only affect Free Spirits?

Edit;

Oh, And Sneak Attack on Dreadwood Warscroll

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[Pompe]

8 hours ago, Nico said:

Another thing I've seen is using lines of adjacent Wyldwood bases to block Stonehorns from crossing them at all (even on the overpowered micro-bases they come on they still don't fit between the trunks) - ultimately creating a little play pen for the Stonehorn and then shooting it with Kurnoth Hunters for fun.

How does that work? Im using plywood with green paing and some moss on it so act as my Wyldwood as the trees would makes it harder to move/put models on the actual bases/bases with trees on them. Stonehorns or Thundertusks ought to be able to walk straight through wood just like any other lager model, otherwise Alarielle would have a rough time doing that aswell?

Or am I missing something

[Nico]

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How does that work? Im using plywood with green paing and some moss on it so act as my Wyldwood as the trees would makes it harder to move/put models on the actual bases/bases with trees on them. Stonehorns or Thundertusks ought to be able to walk straight through wood just like any other lager model, otherwise Alarielle would have a rough time doing that aswell?

Or am I missing something 

You're fortunate to have not spent too much time in forums. There is no debate more bitter, vitriolic and pointless than whether Treelord Ancients get blocked by the trunks of the Wyldwoods that they themselves summon. The consensus seems to be that they do block movement. Alarielle can at least fly over them. Stonehorns cannot.

[Dez]

Such a stupid debate, the trees are made to be removable...

[Pompe]

1 minute ago, Nico said:

You're fortunate to have not spent too much time in forums. There is no debate more bitter, vitriolic and pointless than whether Treelord Ancients get blocked by the trunks of the Wyldwoods that they themselves summon. The consensus seems to be that they do block movement. Alarielle can at least fly over them. Stonehorns cannot.

Haha, aren´t the trunks that are on the GW-sold Wyldoods removable? And if they are should not all trees in a Wyldwood be? If they were to be made impassable we just won the lotto of putting up hedges around objectives! Which, in my opinion, should not be posible as it is pretty OP.  Are people making congalines if they got anything bigger than a Grot to get through the woods then?

 

Thank you for the info Nico!

[Nico]

All good points, but I wasn't inviting us to restart said poisonous swamp of a debate. Let's chat about something else Sylvaneth related.

[Dez]

You wood like to change the subject? Just up and leaf the topic without branching off?

[MidasKiss]

On a more positive note, I won a game using sisters of the Thorn yesterday, it got a bit silly even. 20 dryads ended up wearing through 15 of the better boarboys. Also Kurnoth Hunters in cover are ridiculous. In both cases the savage orcs suffer from such low rend that I think Sylvaneth can be a decent counter depending on your list and depending on their list of course.

Though both me and the other guy have only been playing AoS for 6 months or so I never know what could be played better.

Unfortunately for this match up though the game wasn't fun at all for him so I will use my other lists vs him in the future.

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[Nico]

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Also Kurnoth Hunters in cover are ridiculous. 

It's curious that their main weakness then becomes shooting with -1 rend or better.

I agree that Sylvaneth are probably very good against Bonesplitterz - the -1 to hit all over the place is huge as it counters the hideous combo of Kunning Rukk and +1 to hit buff.

[Korazell]

15 hours ago, Nico said:

It would be very difficult to host both of these in one 2,000 point list. Taking both would also probably mean not taking another Treelord which means you are sacrificing the strongest artefacts (only BCR can get away with spending 1,200 points or more on monsters and special characters in tournaments in my view). I would focus on one of the two at first, here is an Alarielle list (buried within this thread):

Alarielle Spell fest!

 

Gnarlroot Wargrove 80

 

Household 20

Treelord Ancient (Briarsheath, Regrowth, Verdurous Harmony, level 2 wizard) 300

Branchwych (Verdant Blessing, Verdurous Harmony, Ranu's Lamentiri, level 2 wizard) 100

5 Tree Revenants 100

 

600

 

Alarielle (General, Throne of Vines, Verdurous Harmony) 620

Loremaster 100

10 Dryads 120

5 Tree Revenants 100

 

940

 

3 Kurnoth Hunters (Bows) 180

3 Kurnoth Hunters (Scythes) 180

Branchwych (Silverwood Circlet, The Reaping, Verdurous Harmony) 100

 

460

 

2,000

 

You have got 9 spells here I think. Alarielle has to do a lot of heavy lifting here - the key thing will be for you to stop your enemy from focus firing her. As long as she doesn't die between your hero phases you can keep healing her up. 

THAT seems like a fun list...I'm perfectly okay with having a large center model. My experience with age so far has been 1 VLOZD and 2 units of bloodknights as a thousand point list. It's been really weird.  Zombie dragon does most of the heavy lifting in that list, for sure.

 

My thoughts on the list. 

 

Is Allarielle able to do the heavy lifting? With hand of glory and mystic shield to me this seems terrifying and coupled with the healing it seems like she'd be monsterous to deal with. Couple that with the spell casting inherent in the list as well as the hunters who can act as bodyguards, I think I'd run the two units as scythes as I'd have range threats but not a whole load of rend other than Arielle. 

If I went Drycha I suppose I could fit more battle-line into the list and expand the amount of hunters, but, are the two even comparable? I see her being used more for a wicked early attack monster or a sniper with the centipedes being guarded by a line of dryads.  I do value the input! My other question is...other people seem to Value the Dreadwood grove. If I wanted to focus on less magic and more heavy Alpha would that be better over-all or is all the spites just not worth it? 

 

 

[Forestreveries]

Is Allarielle able to do the heavy lifting? With hand of glory and mystic shield to me this seems terrifying and coupled with the healing it seems like she'd be monsterous to deal with. Couple that with the spell casting inherent in the list as well as the hunters who can act as bodyguards, I think I'd run the two units as scythes as I'd have range threats but not a whole load of rend other than Arielle. 

If I went Drycha I suppose I could fit more battle-line into the list and expand the amount of hunters, but, are the two even comparable? I see her being used more for a wicked early attack monster or a sniper with the centipedes being guarded by a line of dryads.  I do value the input! My other question is...other people seem to Value the Dreadwood grove. If I wanted to focus on less magic and more heavy Alpha would that be better over-all or is all the spites just not worth it? 

 

 

I have had some success with Alarielle in competitive play.

I wrote a list with very small model count which saw me to second place at a 34 man tournament.

Alarielle

- General

- Regrowth

Durthu

- Briarsheath

Drycha

- Verdant Blessing

10 Dryads

10 Dryads

5 Tree Revenants

- Protector Glaive

6 Kurnoth Hunters

- Kurnoth Greatbows

No battalions.

I played some solid opponents and a good variety of armies including an Archaon chaos list, a SCE Skyborne Slayers list with 25 Judicators and a Khorne Bloodbound Horde.

I actually won all my games and only came 2nd because I was pipped on painting points in the end.

This list is designed around Alarielle, keeping her alive as long as possible and making the most of her healing capabilities.

If you imagine her and Durthu are attached by a 5.9" string you shouldn't go far wrong.

(To make the most of Durthu's Solemn Guardian ability to spread the wounds that Alarielle suffers is the idea, so that Alarielle can heal them both back up in your next turn.)

It was a super fun list to play, very high risk high reward.

With regards to Dreadwood I'm not sure how many people actually rate it, I'm not a fan myself.

The start of the battle bonuses are great, but flat out not worth the 400 points extra tax (on top of battleline!) IMO.

Aaron

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[Nico]

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The start of the battle bonuses are great, but flat out not worth the 400 points extra tax (on top of battleline!) IMO.

I can't say I agree with this. Yes - it does feel painful. Then again there are loads of other taxes in the other formations - Tree Revenants are seriously expensive for 100 points; the Ironbark formation demands a Treelord; and Winterleaf (in some ways my favourite) requires that painful 4th unit of Dryads. The Spite Revenants are pretty annoying.

However, those bonuses are immense and unique - either you can do a devastating alpha strike (without any issues about house rules or interpretation of the Forest Spirits rule) with Drycha, or even Drycha and Alarielle or Durthu and Alarielle (redeploy Durthu 6 inches away and move Alarielle 16 inches forward before battleround 1).

Alternatively against a gunline you can say "12 inch maximum range for you" - followed by the traditional Nathan Prescott response for taking a boring gunline; and then give them turn one. Then fire back with a load of Kurnoth Hunters from your front line (or out of Wyldwoods) to snipe all their artillery crew etc..

[Nico]

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‎Matthijs Mentink‎ to Warhammer Age of Sigmar

23 hrs · 

 

Hia! I have another rules question!

In this (https://www.games-workshop.com/…/AoS_Errata/warhammer_aos_r…) FAQ , you stated that units with a "set up" rule can place their models within 3" of an enemy unless it is stated otherwise.

Keeping that FAQ in mind, can liberators from a vanguard wing that start their movement phase within 3" of an enemy still use the storm streak ability to remove them from play and set them up within 3" of an enemy unit?

For example, could i use stormstreak to reposition my liberators that are in combat in the movement phase so that they can be more effective in the combat phase?

Common sense would say yes but I would like to double check! 

VANGUARD WING
Stormstreak: Instead of moving in their movement phase, a Vanguard Wing’s Liberators can vanish with a crash of thunder, travelling at the speed of a thunderbolt to aid their Prosecutor brethren. Remove the unit from the battlefield, then set it up anywhere within 5" of a unit of Prosecutors from the Vanguard Wing

GW FB Page response

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Hmm, interesting question.
Since you do it instead of moving, we'd probably play that, if you leave a combat, you can't charge in the same turn, but we'll pass it on to the rules guys in case they want to clarify in future.

This answer maps onto the use of Navigate Realmroots to retreat. Unsurprisingly, GW are taking a purposive interpretation of this because it's unclear literally. Notably, the "instead of moving" wording is integral to their thinking (as a number of you noted above). Depressing news for Kurnoth Hunters.

I still think it's the wrong decision - because the table where you need to roll a 6 to move and charge should balance this out (or roll a 9 to charge), but so be it. I go with the FB page answers (pending an actual FAQ) because they are public and objective - with the exception of the Curse of Years answer (treating it as a wound roll and hence subject to the rule of one) which is palpably wrong and game wrecking (watch me cast Infernal Gateway or Curse of Years with to wound buffs would be beyond insane) (and was called out as palpably wrong by Russ Veal and Terry Pike on Facehammer). 

 

[Forestreveries]

I can't say I agree with this. Yes - it does feel painful. Then again there are loads of other taxes in the other formations - Tree Revenants are seriously expensive for 100 points; the Ironbark formation demands a Treelord; and Winterleaf (in some ways my favourite) requires that painful 4th unit of Dryads. The Spite Revenants are pretty annoying.
However, those bonuses are immense and unique - either you can do a devastating alpha strike (without any issues about house rules or interpretation of the Forest Spirits rule) with Drycha, or even Drycha and Alarielle or Durthu and Alarielle (redeploy Durthu 6 inches away and move Alarielle 16 inches forward before battleround 1).
Alternatively against a gunline you can say "12 inch maximum range for you" - followed by the traditional Nathan Prescott response for taking a boring gunline; and then give them turn one. Then fire back with a load of Kurnoth Hunters from your front line (or out of Wyldwoods) to snipe all their artillery crew etc..


As I said, I agree that the rewards are powerful and have lots of applications.

Spite Revenants are even worse than Trevs IMO, and without the battleline tag which makes the Trevs an easy pill to swallow for Gnarlroot for example.

Alarielle 620
Durthu 400 / Drycha 280
Spite Revenants 400
Minimum Battleline 300
Dreadwood + Outcasts 140
3 Kurnoth Hunters 180

That totals 2040 with Durthu or 1920 for Drycha

Paying almost half of your entire army's points for a tax to deliver 2 models (which total more than the other half) seems utterly insane to me, even if they are Alarielle and Durthu.

Winterleaf and Gnarlroot you pay around a 200pt tax (one battleline unit and the formations) and the units involved often do work. Certainly dryads and Treelords pull their weight.

Ironbark I don't rate at all in matched play tbh. The benefits are minimal and it's expensive to get there.


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[Nico]

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Paying almost half of your entire army's points for a tax to deliver 2 models (which total more than the other half) seems utterly insane to me, even if they are Alarielle and Durthu.

540 points for the 4 units and the 2 formations. I think you're exaggerating by including the Battleline units.

Winterleaf is at least 280-400 of tax (two of the 4 Dryads units and 160 of formations).

It's probably not a good combo with Alarielle - it's just she's the only thing in the army that can really take advantage of the "free move after deployment" - at least at Blood & Glory. I would probably use it to deploy Drycha and then move (say) 6 Kurnoth Hunters with Scythes out of the Hidden Enclaves to 9 inches away from the enemy.

A real concern for Sylvaneth is that they are going to be comped into the ground by people who play against them once without having read the scrolls and then get kerb-stomped. We've already seen two tournaments where they have been comped - Wyldwood caps and now an adverse interpretation of their fundamental movement abilities in an army all about movement. I have no sense of them being overpowered - I'd put them firmly in the second tier of armies (behind Stormcast, mixed Beastclaw, Skaven and Tomb Kings). 

[Forestreveries]

Paying almost half of your entire army's points for a tax to deliver 2 models (which total more than the other half) seems utterly insane to me, even if they are Alarielle and Durthu.

540 points for the 4 units and the 2 formations. I think you're exaggerating by including the Battleline units.
Winterleaf is at least 280-400 of tax (two of the 4 Dryads units and 160 of formations).

A real concern for Sylvaneth is that they are going to be comped into the ground by people who play against them once without having read the scrolls and then get kerb-stomped. We've already seen two tournaments where they have been comped - Wyldwood caps and now an adverse interpretation of their fundamental movement abilities in an army all about movement. 



In my Winterleaf build the dryads do all the work. I could build a better list with 3 units but I wouldn't want less.

In that example list I just gave the 300 points was the minimum points which would be 3x5 tree revenants.

700 points in the army would be single wound infantry with a 5+ save and mediocre bravery. It's just way too fragile.

You could bump them up to dryads with no Kurnoth but even those are single wound and therefore take little advantage of Alarielle's healing abilities which IMO are what you pay for with her.

With regards to knee ****** comp, I agree with you, I expressed the same concerns last night in my local group, who seem to be divided on whether sylvaneth are utterly broken or not worth the time playing for the easy win.

The blood and glory comp makes no difference to me personally as I don't rate Dreadwood and already played that Free Spirits didn't allow teleporting


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[Nico]

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The blood and glory comp makes no difference to me personally as I don't rate Dreadwood and already played that Free Spirits didn't allow teleporting 

Sure - but it's closing off a lot of options.

You're absolutely right that Dreadwood and Alarielle is a bad list at 2,000 points. That said, Dreadwood, Drycha and a Treelord Ancient and a bunch of Kurnoth and Dryads is a solid list.

I rate both Winterleaf and Gnarlroot very highly. Dryads rock.

[Mirage8112]

5 hours ago, Nico said:

*Stuff about Stuff*

 

5 hours ago, Forestreveries said:

*Other stuff about stuff*

Sorry to lazy to find the right quotes. 

Building an effective army is a lot about learning how to turn your taxes (battleline, extra units) from a burden into an advantage. 

Take, for example, the Dreadwood wargrove. Taking 4 units of spites may seem excessive and heavy points cost. They don't hit terribly hard, and they don't last to terribly long. But if you pair them with a Treelord ancient sporting a wraithstone they become terribly scary if sitting in a wildwood on an objective. 

The outcast battalion's ability (each enemy unit within 8" at least two units in this battalion rolls 2d6 in your hero phase, for every point which the roll exceeds the units bravery it suffers a mortal wound.) Combined with the -1 from the spites and -1 from the wraithstone,  B7 or lower armies just evaporate. IRONJAWZ Brutes are base B6. That means even on average rolls, they'll eat 3-4 mortal wounds before combat even starts. If you roll well (about 30% chance of 10 or more on 2d6), you can even peel off 6-8 wounds. That's not so bad considering they're mortal wounds, and Brutes are 180 points per 5. 

Then they'll have to take battleshock at -2 bravery, on 2d6 minus the lowest dice. Inspiring presence might help them here, but don't forget the rest of your army is stuck in after a punishing alpha strike. 

Plus, if you roll well for the Dreadwood attribute, you can basically put 4 units into their front lines turn 1, and reduce they're targeting distance substantially. 

It's a far more aggressive way to play than I think we're used to. But really, that's a difference in playstyle and not viability. 

[Nico]

on a rock, paper, scissors basis, sticking the Spites behind a line of Dryads could be lethal. The Dryads stop the enemy in their tracks and then the Spites can do their thing. Ironjawz do have a major weak spot to Battleshock.

Sadly Wraithstone only works in the Battleshock Phase (which is so dumb given it would be a good synergy - GW seem to be terrified to give people bravery combos other than stacking bravery debuffs in the Battleshock phase).

I'm definitely a fan of Dreadwood - just been keeping a list under my hat.

Sylvaneth are definitely spoiled for choice compared to Fyreslayers.

[Nico]

This could be a really good combo. 

LEADERS
Treelord Ancient (300)

- General
- Artefact : The Oaken Armour
- Command Trait : Gnarled Warrior

Branchwych (100)
- Artefact : Ranu's Lamentiri

Auric Runesmiter (100)
- Latch axe & Fyresteel Throwing Axes

UNITS
Tree-Revenants x 5 (100) Dryads x 20 (240)
Dryads x 10 (120) Kurnoth Hunters x 3 (180)

- Greatbows
Auric Hearthguard x 25 (500)

- Magmapike

MONSTERS Treelord (260)

BATTALIONS Ironbark Wargrove (60) Household (20)

   

[Nico]

Basically the Hearthguard pop up and obliterate something valuable while the Dryads form a wall in front of them. The Hunters provide support fire.

[Aezeal]

23 hours ago, Nico said:

It's curious that their main weakness then becomes shooting with -1 rend or better.

I agree that Sylvaneth are probably very good against Bonesplitterz - the -1 to hit all over the place is huge as it counters the hideous combo of Kunning Rukk and +1 to hit buff.

Yesterday I played against an Empire player he didn't know my special rules on most troops. He ended up putting his pistoliers against dryads in a forest.  The - 1 to hit made his tons of shots hit on 6+ instead of 5+ (effectively halving their damage out put) it even made his horses hooves do more damage than those shots. 

[Nico]

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it even made his horses hooves do more damage than those shots. 

Never knock horses - Mounts always do more damage than riders^TM - except Dorghar.

The abundance of -1 to hit passives in the army is probably the best thing it has going for it - precisely because it's not knocking a sixth off the damage taken, it's often knocking off a third or even half as you say. Especially given that these work against shooting and aren't dependent on being near the enemy (unlike the abysmal Bat Swarms and high risk Neferata command ability). The also mitigate combos like Blightkings and Bloodletter bomb - Blightkings vs Dryads with Shield of Thorns is frankly hilarious.

[Mirage8112]

 

On 11/10/2016 at 2:33 AM, Forestreveries said:

This is Ben Curry's house rule for Blood & Glory. I'm posting this here in case anyone is using any of the relevant formations and attending that event.

Should this be an indication of GW's official view (e.g. what might arise in a new FAQ), then this would kill off a whole swathe of alpha strike lists - the Spirit of Durthu would be borderline unplayable at 400 points. 

Doesn't it only affect Free Spirits?

Edit;

Oh, And Sneak Attack on Dreadwood Warscroll

Yeah, I think this is straight up the wrong call. It doesn't really surprise me however. Mostly because it "appears" like an exploit, rather than how the rules are "intended" to be used. Basically, I think he chose to rule that way because of how it "felt" not because of how the the rules interacted. Incidentally, after my chat with @scrubyandwells, I've looked for more evidence that it's a viable tactic. Check out GW's ruling in regards to allegiance destruction's free move in there hero phase:

 

Q: Can the ‘Rampaging Destroyers’ ability be used to retreat?

A: Yes, this move is made ‘as if it were the movement phase’, so as long as you roll high enough you can use this move to retreat. 

 

I'd say this gives even more credence to the interpretation of "as if it were the movement phase", to mean "this unit gets an extra movement phase." (basically). 

[Mirage8112]

Here's something that just popped up on the boards:

It provides a clear points cost for a balewind vortex and a Sylvaneth Wyldwood. Since it's part of the points cost for your army (0 for SYLVANETH Allegiance) it means it can be included in your army list and is a pretty strong indicator GW intends Sylvaneth players to bring a few of them to the game.