How does roll of 6 always succeed work?

[testingstuff]

Hey, 

 I am new to pitched battles and it states that natural rolls of 1 always fail no matter what and natural rolls of 6 for to hit, wound and save always succeed.

I am a bit confused on what "always succeed" means.

Example: Skink  attacks Archaon and rolls 6 to hit (its a success but what does that imply?) then rolls 6 to wound (does that mean it auto wounds and the Archaon does not get to roll saves?)

Example 2: Orruk Brute attacks Archaon rolls 5 to hit and rolls 5 to wound then Archaon rolls a 6 on his SAVE, does the save ignore rend?

[RuneBrush]

These rules start to become a bit more relevant when you become subject to modifiers.  Probably easiest to do some examples:

A Lord Celestant has a 3+ save.  They've been buffed with a Mystic Shield (+1) and they're stood in cover (another +1).  This effectively means they cannot fail their save as a D6 roll of 1 +1 +1 = 3 (a save).  The rule of 1 means there's always a 1 in 6 chance of them being wounded.

A unit of Moonclan Grots armed with Bows are shooting at Neferata who's 12" away with no damage.  Normally they require a 5+ to hit, however her Command ability confers a -1 to hit debuff on all units within 15", additionally a crafty Necromancer cast Overwhelming Dread on them last turn which gives them a further -1 to hit!  Normally if they rolled a 6, with two -1 debuffs it would be below the required 5+, however the rule of one means they'll pepper Neferata with arrows on all natural rolls of a 6!

I'm fairly sure that the automatic success only applies on To Hit and To Wound rolls and not Save rolls too - so if you thump a Skeleton Warrior with a -1 rend weapon they'll not receive any save at all!

[RuneBrush]

3 hours ago, Somanlius said:

Actually, about those examples,  the rule of one that states that 1s always fail and 6s always succeed after rerolls but BEFORE modifiers are applied. Wouldn't that mean that after the modifiers are applied 1s to save for a Lord Celestant would work and 6s to hit against Neferata would fail? Or do Modifiers not matter for 1s and 6s? I am confused 

It wouldn't as the Rule of One simply states that a roll of 1 fails, it's an immediate action so you couldn't proceed onto applying modifiers. 

In essence you're right, for rolls of 1 and 6, the modifiers almost don't matter - however the one thing to bear in mind, is that even though you may always hit/wound on a 6, abilities might not trigger.  In the Neferata example, if the attacker were a unit of Spirit Hosts (5+ to hit and causing a Mortal Wound on a roll of 6+), the Spirit Hosts would never be able to cause a mortal wound.

2 hours ago, flemingmma said:

So my 6+ save on blood reavers is always successful? Even when rend makes it immediately non existent?

Sadly not, because a roll of 6 being successful only applies to To Hit and To Wound rolls, not Save rolls.  If something hits your blood reavers with -1 rend it will still shred them into offerings for Khorne

12 hours ago, ipoo2 said:

A similar point on saves, you re-roll without modifiers. e.g. if you have Nagash command ability to re-roll saves of 1 and your warscroll says 5, but you have mystic shield (i.e. 4) you roll aiming for 4, if you get a 1 the re-roll needs to be a 5 (what it says on the warscrol)

Mystic shield (or any + save ability) will confer onto the re-roll too.  The "before modifiers" part of re-rolling really only applies if you have a "re-roll failed X".  Best way to show this is another example

A single Skull Reapers is attacking Neferata, once again she's fired off her command ability and that pesky Necromancer has put Overwhelming Dread on them, putting him at -2 to hit.  The Skull Reaper has gained the ability to Re-roll all failed Hit rolls, and this turn makes a whopping 5 attacks with his Daemonblades (4+ to hit).  He makes his to hit-rolls: 1, 3, 4, 5, 6.  He can choose to re-roll the 1 and 3 as before modifiers they failed to hit.  The 4 and 5 cannot re-rolled as they would be a success (again before modifiers).  He re-rolls two dice and gets a 1 and a 6.  He now applies his modifiers and the two 6's become 4's, which is what he required to hit.  The Daemonblades don't wake because his (modified) to-hit rolls were only 4 and not the required 6+.

[Somanlius]

10 hours ago, RuneBrush said:

These rules start to become a bit more relevant when you become subject to modifiers.  Probably easiest to do some examples:

A Lord Celestant has a 3+ save.  They've been buffed with a Mystic Shield (+1) and they're stood in cover (another +1).  This effectively means they cannot fail their save as a D6 roll of 1 +1 +1 = 3 (a save).  The rule of 1 means there's always a 1 in 6 chance of them being wounded.

A unit of Moonclan Grots armed with Bows are shooting at Neferata who's 12" away with no damage.  Normally they require a 5+ to hit, however her Command ability confers a -1 to hit debuff on all units within 15", additionally a crafty Necromancer cast Overwhelming Dread on them last turn which gives them a further -1 to hit!  Normally if they rolled a 6, with two -1 debuffs it would be below the required 5+, however the rule of one means they'll pepper Neferata with arrows on all natural rolls of a 6!

I'm fairly sure that the automatic success only applies on To Hit and To Wound rolls and not Save rolls too - so if you thump a Skeleton Warrior with a -1 rend weapon they'll not receive any save at all!

Actually, about those examples,  the rule of one that states that 1s always fail and 6s always succeed after rerolls but BEFORE modifiers are applied. Wouldn't that mean that after the modifiers are applied 1s to save for a Lord Celestant would work and 6s to hit against Neferata would fail? Or do Modifiers not matter for 1s and 6s? I am confused 

[testingstuff]

33 minutes ago, RuneBrush said:

These rules start to become a bit more relevant when you become subject to modifiers.  Probably easiest to do some examples:

A Lord Celestant has a 3+ save.  They've been buffed with a Mystic Shield (+1) and they're stood in cover (another +1).  This effectively means they cannot fail their save as a D6 roll of 1 +1 +1 = 3 (a save).  The rule of 1 means there's always a 1 in 6 chance of them being wounded.

A unit of Moonclan Grots armed with Bows are shooting at Neferata who's 12" away with no damage.  Normally they require a 5+ to hit, however her Command ability confers a -1 to hit debuff on all units within 15", additionally a crafty Necromancer cast Overwhelming Dread on them last turn which gives them a further -1 to hit!  Normally if they rolled a 6, with two -1 debuffs it would be below the required 5+, however the rule of one means they'll pepper Neferata with arrows on all natural rolls of a 6!

I'm fairly sure that the automatic success only applies on To Hit and To Wound rolls and not Save rolls too - so if you thump a Skeleton Warrior with a -1 rend weapon they'll not receive any save at all!

Thanks for the answers, so for To Hit and To Wound natural rolls of 6 all they do is help you ignore debuffs ?

[flemingmma]

So my 6+ save on blood reavers is always successful? Even when rend makes it immediately non existent?

[BaldoBeardo]

Also worth bearing in mind that abilities trigger on *results*, not *rolls*.

So let's say you have a MW ability that triggers on to-hit rolls of 6+.

You need a 5+ to hit, and have a -2 modifier from debuffs meaning you need to roll 7.

You roll a 6. This is a successful hit by the rules of one, so you continue to your to-wound roll as normal.

However, the MW ability *does not* trigger, as after modification your result is 4, which isn't the 6+ threshold.

 

[EMMachine]

3 hours ago, flemingmma said:

So my 6+ save on blood reavers is always successful? Even when rend makes it immediately non existent?

Which Language do you use for your rules? In the english Generals Handbook 2017 the "rolls of 6 are always a success rule" is only for hit- and wound-rolls.

In the german book for example there was an error that a save-roll of 6 is always a success but this was changed in the errata.

Edited March 23, 2018 by EMMachine

[flemingmma]

1 hour ago, EMMachine said:

Which Language do you use for your rules? In the english Generals Handbook 2017 the "rolls of 6 are always a success rule" is only for hit- and wound-rolls.

In the german book for example there was an error that a save-roll of 6 is always a success but this was changed in the errata.

Thanks for clearing that up

[DevilsDice]

On 3/23/2018 at 8:26 AM, RuneBrush said:

It wouldn't as the Rule of One simply states that a roll of 1 fails, it's an immediate action so you couldn't proceed onto applying modifiers. 

In essence you're right, for rolls of 1 and 6, the modifiers almost don't matter - however the one thing to bear in mind, is that even though you may always hit/wound on a 6, abilities might not trigger.  In the Neferata example, if the attacker were a unit of Spirit Hosts (5+ to hit and causing a Mortal Wound on a roll of 6+), the Spirit Hosts would never be able to cause a mortal wound.

Sadly not, because a roll of 6 being successful only applies to To Hit and To Wound rolls, not Save rolls.  If something hits your blood reavers with -1 rend it will still shred them into offerings for Khorne

Mystic shield (or any + save ability) will confer onto the re-roll too.  The "before modifiers" part of re-rolling really only applies if you have a "re-roll failed X".  Best way to show this is another example

A single Skull Reapers is attacking Neferata, once again she's fired off her command ability and that pesky Necromancer has put Overwhelming Dread on them, putting him at -2 to hit.  The Skull Reaper has gained the ability to Re-roll all failed Hit rolls, and this turn makes a whopping 5 attacks with his Daemonblades (4+ to hit).  He makes his to hit-rolls: 1, 3, 4, 5, 6.  He can choose to re-roll the 1 and 3 as before modifiers they failed to hit.  The 4 and 5 cannot re-rolled as they would be a success (again before modifiers).  He re-rolls two dice and gets a 1 and a 6.  He now applies his modifiers and the two 6's become 4's, which is what he required to hit.  The Daemonblades don't wake because his (modified) to-hit rolls were only 4 and not the required 6+.

Apologises for bringing up an old post

 

But a 6+ hit from a spirit host always causes mortal wounds as it's an unmodified hit. Even if it's got 2- to hit that 6 will cause mortal wounds only

[EMMachine]

1 hour ago, DevilsDice said:

Apologises for bringing up an old post

 

But a 6+ hit from a spirit host always causes mortal wounds as it's an unmodified hit. Even if it's got 2- to hit that 6 will cause mortal wounds only

You really got an old post, so your answer is completely out of context . The post was from March 2018 (before AoS 2.0 was released). At that time the Spirit Hosts used the warscroll of Legions of Nagash (which triggered hits of 6+) not the Nighthaunt Warscroll (which triggers on unmodified hit rolls of 6).

So @RuneBrush was correct at the time because 6+ and unmodified 6 are two different things. If something triggers on 6+, the roll is affected by modifiers and if the rule triggers on unmodified 6, it ignores modifiers on the roll.

[ipoo2]

Yep, that is correct.

If you need a 5+ to hit and they have -2 to hit, (i.e. you need a 7!) a 6 succeeds. This is for hit an wounds not for saves.

A similar point on saves, you re-roll without modifiers. e.g. if you have Nagash command ability to re-roll saves of 1 and your warscroll says 5, but you have mystic shield (i.e. 4) you roll aiming for 4, if you get a 1 the re-roll needs to be a 5 (what it says on the warscrol)