Sportsmanship and AOS

[Infeston]

Simply put, don't be THAT GUY: 

This video is an example for 40k, but I think you get the idea.

[heywoah_twitch]

9 hours ago, AGPO said:

Frontline Gaming's post on *that* moment from the LVO.  It's about how you want to win. Tony won the game, but he lost the final due to a moment his opponent would have let him off with had he been a better sport earlier. 

So to me the only thing wrong with this is the guy then wanting his opponent to give him a gimmie. Essentially the hypocrisy.

It's weird that in this game that situation is such a huge issue when in mtg/chess tournament it would go like this:

Game 1: "Opponent resolved his movement wrong, quite the blunder." Everyone moves on, opponent wouldn't even ask for takes-backs. If he did it would be seen as poor sportsmanship for the player who performed the misplay, ironically.

Game 2: "Shoot, I made the same mistake my opponent did last round. Well, thems the rules, I should tighten up my play next time." Everyone moves on.

[heywoah_twitch]

accidental double post so I'll just add I'm talking about tournaments and competitive play. beer and pretzels sigmar is quite another story, but as always make sure both players know what they're getting into which is as easy as a twelve second conversation before rolling for battleplan.

[DantePQ]

I've played a lot of competitive games and tournaments since 5ed of WFB and sportsmanship for me is the the most important thing in wargaming. I don't care how filthy is your army - it's normal in torunament scene but I had a blast playing against nice opponents no matter what kind of list they run. 

[Adasi]

i'll add another comment that no one has mentioned which i believe comes under sportsman ship but builds on the theme of communication: Dice.

• Symbols: I always discuss my dice with my opponent at the start of the game. i show them my symbols (i use only one colour) and explain that all the symbols are on the "6". I consider it bad sports in a competitive game if someone uses some dice with symbols on the "1" (ala GW dice) and some with symbols on the "6". Consistency is important.
• Rolling: I've had some opponents explain at the start of the game that for consistencies sake, they consider all dice not rolled on the flat surface of the tbale to be "cocked" and they would be rerolling and have since adopted this myself. We have al likely played "that person" that seeming manages to find the "1's" that were cocked but never the "6's". Consistency is key
• Dice cups: i may be out on a limb on my own here but i don't like them. I find they not only slow the game down but id' rather see the dice rolled not shaken and sometimes stacked at which point my opponent knocks them down. Dice trays i'm totally cool with!

I've never won best sports but always seem to get a few votes (got 4 at a Throne of Skulls one year only for someone to get 5 lol) so i must be doing something right anyway.

[Carnelian]

I will add that the combination of lots of small multi coloured multi symbol dice, picking up dice quickly and dice trays is a disastrous combination. The edges of the tray can often obscure the results if the dice - which are already  hard enough to see anyway.

Just don't do it! If you're going to use small dice, roll them in a place that both people can see and male sure your opponent had the chance to view them.

[CyderPirate]

Another vote for agreeing with all of the OPs points, plus the 'give your opponent a nudge if they forget to do something important (especially if its something they've mentioned/telegraphed)' clause.  Having a certain amount of flexibility isn't 'pandering,'  it just makes the game flow much more easily, which lends itself to much better games. 

I do want to challenge the idea that allowing your opponent to go back and do something they'd forgotten is somehow antithetical to competitive gameplay. I agree that in competitive games, wins and losses come down to punishing your opponent for mistakes. However, those mistakes should be your opponents choices, not simply procedural technicalities. If I'm going to win or lose a game, I want it to come down to the decisions my opponent and I made - not how well we follow the flowchart of game phases. 

 

[CyderPirate]

Oh, and if it needs stating:

Don't be salty when you're losing, and don't crow when you're winning.  It's a game of fantasy toy soldiers, losing ain't that bad and winning doesn't make you bloody Napoleon. 

[Ryan Taylor]

Don't get mad at your opponent when your plan doesn't work or they are beating you. Instead flip off your own models and give them a stern talking to. 

[KnightFire]

It's not that at high level play you shouldn't allow your opponent to take back moves or correct mistakes, that's up to you, but at high levels of play you should be expected to kbow the rules and not make mistakes, and have no right to expect your opponent to allow take backs  (they may well allow it and most aos players I know would).

 

Given that situation, my experience from playing with the best players ar my club (UK masters level) they don't want to be offered take backs during play, as if the best way to learn is by being punished for mistakes. Many players take this approach and so don't want an opponent that will offer take backs. 

 

As had been mentioned a lot, the key is communicating and knowing what type of game your playing. 

There are other aspects like explaining combos in your list that are also subjective. Do you explicitly day that if you put ability x on unit y it's super strong, or do you just tell them what ability x and unit y do and hope they work it out. It all varies per game and opponent. If your always playing the same person or small group of people it's not an issue, but at an event it's key, And so it's a good practice to get into in all your games to discuss the type of game you want, whether to allow take backs, what counts ad a cocked dice etc etc. 

[Richelieu]

5 minutes ago, KnightFire said:

It's not that at high level play you shouldn't allow your opponent to take back moves or correct mistakes, that's up to you, but at high levels of play you should be expected to kbow the rules and not make mistakes, and have no right to expect your opponent to allow take backs  (they may well allow it and most aos players I know would).

For me it comes down to whether or not any events have occurred that would alter the move they were asking to go back and do.  For example, if they just moved around a bunch of stuff and forgot that they didn't activate a command ability, that movement didn't affect their decision to use that command ability. 

If, however, they forgot to move a unit, then went to their shooting phase, rolled a bunch of dice and the wanted to move the forgotten unit, i probably wouldn't allow it because the board state has been affected by dice rolls.

[Keldaur]

3 hours ago, Richelieu said:

For me it comes down to whether or not any events have occurred that would alter the move they were asking to go back and do.  For example, if they just moved around a bunch of stuff and forgot that they didn't activate a command ability, that movement didn't affect their decision to use that command ability. 

If, however, they forgot to move a unit, then went to their shooting phase, rolled a bunch of dice and the wanted to move the forgotten unit, i probably wouldn't allow it because the board state has been affected by dice rolls.

Agree. It is simple if you got information that could alter your decisions (how you move, what command ability you use, etc), then you shouldn't be doing a rollback. , but people really don't seem to intuitively get that some of the "timesavers" can give unfair advantages (for example, people who roll to run for every unit and then proceed to move them in whatever order they want to). For myself I tend to do it that way, only ask for a rollback (ask, not take for granted) if the decision was a given and it doesn't give me an advantage. For other people, it depends on the expectations of the game.

[Aranthir]

I think sportmanship is the most important aspect of our hobby. When you share a hobby with other people it's great to be nice to them because otherwise what's the point of goint out and play with someone ?

[Burf]

It's been my general experience that the actual table is the place hobbygamers congregate where the fewest 'sportsmanship' issues come up. There are plenty of other houses to clean first.