New Aelves

[DantePQ]

They are confirmed to be Named Characters as far as I remember, but any Tenebrael looks like new DoK line and he fits them perfectly 

[Menkeroth]

They are not confirmed and never were. In fact, Tenebrael Shard means "A shard of darkness" and "A" in the description means one of many. Basic grammar, you know. Mistweaver too, by the way, and it's never stated Saih is a name. WH: Quest fluff says nothing is known about those two heroes so no, not really. 

[firebat]

13 hours ago, Turgol said:

People keep thinking on WHFB terms. There are no dark elves anymore. No dark elves followed Malerion. The DoK are not dark elves, not even a division of the dark elves in two new factions, but something new that recycles three former DE kits.

 

My bet? Shadowkin will be all new. Just as the old slayer wasn’t recycled for FS and just as many new, quite fitting (Gyros, Engineer, Irondrakes) dwarves kits weren’t recycled for KO, Malerion’s kits will be all new. Won’t be going the sylvaneth way (as DoK does)but rather the KO way.

Except GW has decided to largely split who can ally with who based on FB guidlines. The Dark Elf factions can only ally with dark elves (+stormcast), High Elves with High Elves (again +stormcast) The same is true in destruction with it being broadly split along the old army book guidlines of Ogres and Greenskins. I'd love to be able to use the new Khaine stuff and then ally in my old white lions but I can't without it then being generic order. Not necessarily a problem but it shows those old factions still exist.

[Tiger]

4 minutes ago, firebat said:

I'd love to be able to use the new Khaine stuff and then ally in my old white lions but I can't without it then being generic order.

Does the same thing happens when used an army of Hammerhal?

[firebat]

1 minute ago, Tiger said:

Does the same thing happens when used an army of Hammerhal?

Yeah I think so. I don't have the Firestorm book but as far as I know (possibly completely wrong) those are just additional rules on top of what you would already get. So as it stands DoK + Stormcast could be DoK allegiance +city allegiance while DoK +White Lions would have to be Order + city allegiance. I have no idea what you can actually take for each city allegiance though.

[Faedryd]

I'm a lucky guy, since my girlfriend offered to take my Sylvaneth, so I don't need to feel bad about all the kits I got at the end of last year and can start a Daughters of Khaine army. She liked the Sylvaneth anyways and the only reason she didn't pick them was that I got them first.

 

[zedatkinszed]

18 hours ago, Turgol said:

People keep thinking on WHFB terms. There are no dark elves anymore. No dark elves followed Malerion. The DoK are not dark elves, not even a division of the dark elves in two new factions, but something new that recycles three former DE kits.

 

My bet? Shadowkin will be all new. Just as the old slayer wasn’t recycled for FS and just as many new, quite fitting (Gyros, Engineer, Irondrakes) dwarves kits weren’t recycled for KO, Malerion’s kits will be all new. Won’t be going the sylvaneth way (as DoK does)but rather the KO way.

4 hours ago, firebat said:

Except GW has decided to largely split who can ally with who based on FB guidlines. The Dark Elf factions can only ally with dark elves (+stormcast), High Elves with High Elves (again +stormcast) The same is true in destruction with it being broadly split along the old army book guidlines of Ogres and Greenskins. I'd love to be able to use the new Khaine stuff and then ally in my old white lions but I can't without it then being generic order. Not necessarily a problem but it shows those old factions still exist.

The allies system isn't proof of old factions existing per se. All it shows is that they haven't been updated yet. Let's wait and see who the DoK can ally with after their book and the GHB18 comes out. My money's on them having far less ally options after that. More like Sylvaneth.

Re: the Shadowkin - we already have 2 Shadowkin heroes and I'm with Turgol. There is ZERO evidence of any former Dark Elf faction being "folded into" anything. Malerion's forces are in Ulgu. Malerion is a Shadow God. Mistweaver is a shadow sorceress, Tenebrael shard is a shadow assassin. The existing Aelf factions are in the other Realms (Ghyran and Aqshy mainly but there's mention of some privateers in Ghur) there is NO NEED to fold the Shadow blades or Darklings into the shadowkin. I say this with rue because I own a huge Dark Elf army with all these models and I love it if it happened but it wont.

Apart from the above, Darklings are basically a full subfaction with their own allegiance abilities and artefacts in GHB17. DoK will have a battletome of their own. And BTW the Anvilgard alliance (Firestorm) covers all the old DE line quite nicely with SCE and Dispossessed.  And point in fact, you could combine your White Lions with the new DoK as a Hammerhal army from Firestorm.  

GW made a design choice around the allies / sub-faction system. And that choice was all about "flavour". Basically Seraphon and Sylvaneth don't mix with anything as sub-factions. SCE goes with everything. Duardin stick with their own. And the reamining Elf subfactions need their old units just to function as (kind of) viable armies. I know High Elves + Dark Elves sounds cool but the flavour doesn't mix, unless you ground it in a city. YMMV but that's why the current system is as it is.

[Sleboda]

10 hours ago, Ollie Grimwood said:

I think it’s more about trademarking than IP protection. Anyone can still make Dwarfs or Elves but they have to call them that (or make up their own names) so when you search for the GW variations they’re the ones that pop up on your search engine or that’s whats what you get when you ask in a shop (like a caveman). 

Also given they make the LOTR stuff it’s quite a strange situation to have two separate product lines with all the same names and there’s no way they’d get to change the LOTR stuffs names 

Both of those are reasonable alternatives.

The LotR one,  in particular,  has a merit to my mind. I was a GW employee at the time they got the license, and shine of the terms of that license required separation of the lines. That was why the scales were different and why you never saw intermixing of the lines in conversions, articles, or events.

[Sleboda]

On 1/27/2018 at 9:14 AM, Envyus said:

Sometimes when it's blatantly obvious. Like it is here even if they don't say the reason it's clear what the reason is. 

This is one of the those cases. The proof

++ Mod Edit ++

Removed offensive comment. Points have already been dealt out

 

[Sleboda]

On 1/27/2018 at 10:53 AM, S133arcanite said:

Technically cthulhu doesnt have mythology, it was invented by hp lovecraft in one of his novels

All mythology was invented by someone at some point.  The Elder Gods, including Cthulhu, are an even more recent invented myth. 

Recency and verifiable attribution don't make things less mythological.

 

++ Mod Edit ++

@Sleboda has already been given points by Ben for this but I have tweaked the post to make it less offensive to people

[firebat]

@zedatkinszed But the argument I was replying to was that there is no such things as Dark Elves any more and it's just recycling kits when that clearly isn't the case. Look at Sylvaneth since you bring them up. Again, like the others they can only take Wanderers as allies (+stormcast), the only other faction based on their old army book. Wanderers and Ironweld are the only exceptions to the rule having been rolled into the High Elves to some extent for the former and an amalgamation of the empire and dwarf war machines for the latter, and so both humans and dwarves can take them as allies. The High Elf factions can also take Sylvaneth allies no doubt based on Alarielle because none of the former Dark Elf factions can.

The point being High Elves and Dark Elves not being able to mix is a flavour decision based on WHFB. I'm not saying they should be able to ally purely because they're Elves but currently, in a time period thousands of years later to be almost a reboot, when by all accounts the only survivors were huddled in Azyr together and the former rulers, now become gods, were all despondent because they couldn't find more of their kind, and who can all be used together anyway under order, the way the allies are set up exists purely to keep those former WHFB distinctions alive. As long as those distinctions exist they ARE Dark Elves still. I don't need Hammerhal to use DoK and my White Lions together because I can just do it as generic Order just for some reason in some cases I can keep allegiance bonus' and in others I can't.

Thinking about it more I think I just don't like the allies rule. I kind of agree with the post I quoted that I don't think those distinctions should exist in the current game (and probably mostly do just to allow people to field armies kind of similar to what they had). They feel arbitrary in the current setting. As the quote says, if they don't follow Malerion (and he's not really even Malekith these days, he's already been working with Tyrion) then where does the schism exist in the current setting? I could possibly understand it in the case of Shadow Elves and Light Elves but currently they don't exist. I think you should be able to just take that 20% from your grand alliance as a whole. Unless they did something more interesting with it and made it some kind of political alignment that could shift with the story. In a game where you're buying models though I can't see many having an appetite for that.

[Ollie Grimwood]

5 hours ago, Tiger said:

Does the same thing happens when used an army of Hammerhal?

It was FAQ’d that you could only take City Alliegence with an Army where you’d chosen to have Order Alliegence only, so no City rules for Stromcast or Sylvaneth Alliegence for example. The City rules are in addition to the Order Alliegence ones however 

[Sleboda]

On 1/27/2018 at 7:45 PM, xking said:

We don't need this type of offensive language. on this forum. Keep your opinions to yourself.

Just as we don't need people asserting opinion as undeniable truth.

Also, don't tell me what to do with my opinions. We don't need authoritarian squashing of discussion either.

Also also ... "offensive language?" I used none. 

Wow. Low bar  indeed.

++ Mod Edit ++

Sleboda has been given points for this

[Ollie Grimwood]

36 minutes ago, Sleboda said:

Both of those are reasonable alternatives.

The LotR one,  in particular,  has a merit to my mind. I was a GW employee at the time they got the license, and shine of the terms of that license required separation of the lines. That was why the scales were different and why you never saw intermixing of the lines in conversions, articles, or events.

Yeah it’s was really strict. It’s worth pointing out the Tolkien estate are really litigious, whatever you think about GW and their legal challenges they pale in comparison. 

They’re also why we don’t get Hobbits anywhere else and why for GW they were Dwarfs and not Dwarves. 

[Soulsmith]

13 minutes ago, Sleboda said:

Just as we don't need people asserting opinion as undeniable truth.

Also, don't tell me what to do with my opinions. We don't need authoritarian squashing of discussion either.

Also also ... "offensive language?" I used none. 

Wow. Low bar  indeed.

In fairness, one could argue that the latter half of your sentence was unnecessary, and antagonistic at worst mate after you said you'd drop it. Not saying don't debate.

 

Also you're correct on mythology, cthulhu and Lovecrafts other work is referred to as his mythos. Just because we know for certainty it is fiction doesn't remove that fact  

[firebat]

13 minutes ago, xking said:

Their are no Dark Elves, high elves or wood elves. These things died as a concept with the old world. We have just Aelves that are divided by culture and faith and factions.

Describe to me how the culture of the Lion Rangers matches more with that of the Order Draconis than with the Order Serpentis and do it without referencing anything established in Fantasy Battle please.

[Soulsmith]

8 minutes ago, firebat said:

Describe to me how the culture of the Lion Rangers matches more with that of the Order Draconis than with the Order Serpentis and do it without referencing anything established in Fantasy Battle please.

Yeah that is entirely not what he meant. Essentially elves have lost the cultures they had in WHFB, now we have different factions. That is not to say high elves are now like dark elves etc, there is just a different order now.

[Tiger]

36 minutes ago, Ollie Grimwood said:

It was FAQ’d that you could only take City Alliegence with an Army where you’d chosen to have Order Alliegence only, so no City rules for Stromcast or Sylvaneth Alliegence for example. The City rules are in addition to the Order Alliegence ones however 

Oh, thanks for clarifying.

[Edgecoc]

Any release window for these new models yet?

[Keldaur]

54 minutes ago, Edgecoc said:

Any release window for these new models yet?

Yes, please. My wallet is already trying to jump out of my pants and I need to calm it down.

[zedatkinszed]

2 hours ago, xking said:

Have people read the  "Shadowblades" lore? They  are vigilantes that hunt down cultist. They are not worshipers of khaine.

Clearly not. I think many people commenting on AOS lore on the 'net are not actually paying attention to the new fluff before posting. I had a guy on reddit ask for a source to prove that Slaanesh ate the elves and that Malerion and Tyrion banded together to rescue them from him/her. And this was literally in the primer for AOS - the 1st bit of lore released about aelves

[Menkeroth]

It's a common problem  - posting info without any actual knowledge, which is especially hilarious here.

[DantePQ]

Sure Shadowblades got their faction and they are not followers of Khaine, who is rather forgotten God in Mortal Realms. But there could be Assassins in DoK army as well and Dark Riders could be emissaries of Morathi as in the World that Once Was Witch Elves were raising Assassins and it was important part of Khaine lore, with their civilisation established by Morathi they could easily go back to there. 

I don't know maybe GW doesn't want to fold actions into bigger ones but I guess surely they won't release new models and BT for every 2 model faction. 

[zedatkinszed]

1 hour ago, DantePQ said:

I don't know maybe GW doesn't want to fold actions into bigger ones but I guess surely they won't release new models and BT for every 2 model faction. 

Some factions are on solid ground - Darkling Covens, Wanderers for example and probably the Phoenix Temple & Scourge Runner Privateers (they have a lot of rep in new fluff). Some others have good potential: Order Serpentis, Order Draconis and Eldritch Council. But Shadow Blades, and the rest of the High Elf units have, IMHO a questionable future alone.

What GW do with Death will be interesting but equally I do strongly believe that the Firestorm city alliances was testing something out. I would not be surprised to see city based factions in the future. You can see this on the Scourge Runners page and the Ironweld's and Dispossed's pages - the city box is being pushed with/for them.

You can also begin to see a critical mass for what gets a Battletome and new models with the Aelf sub-factions too. Darkling Covens has 7 individual units (2 heroes, 1 Behemoth 5 infantry units - all in 4 boxes) and they have sub-faction rules in the GHB17. They could be an easy re-box and Battletome at some point (but maybe GW wants to rework the minis). Before their relaunch DoK had 7 individual units (2 Heroes, 2 Behemoths, 3 infantry, 1 Cavalry all in 3 boxes). Compare that with Sylvaneth who have 10 individual units (4 infantry, 5 Behemoths, 6 Heroes all in 7 boxes). It looks like DoK will have 11-12 units (in 6 boxes) after the relaunch too. This number of units with this kind of mix of unit, hero, & large monster seems to indicate what's ready for relaunch. But then again maybe I'm tin-foil hatting

[Hulksmash]

I just hope we get a DoK Hydra variant and I'd be good with them lumping in Shadow Blades into the faction. They'd also slot in nice with the other shadow elf army though so I'm not sure it'll happen. I think we'll get essentially 3 "AoS" armies for Dark Elves. Sea Elves, Blood Elves, and Shadow with the other stuff being lumped together and probably not seeing a true battle tome release but with enough stuff not to be completely squated. High Elves actually are looking far worse for wear in that scenario with their factions.