The History of the Hobby

[Turragor]

I got all long winded in a response to 'Stormcast are Space Marines' and I feel it has the potential to really derail any thread it's in so I'm moving it to its own thread.

I really love tracing back through Citadel/GWs history and seeing the pop culture references and other source material pop up in 'Warhammerized' form. Now GW has been around so long that they can riff off their own work - but they were doing that a long time ago too.

I thought some real old timers (I'm 35 and first started dabbling in the early 90s) might have some other interesting AoS related history or easter eggs to share in this thread. My post was:

Personally I think that this concept has to be fought!

It's the number 1 critique given by those who know nothing of AoS who want to bash it (dumb sigmarines). It is also a bit modern and almost short sighted.

The inspiration for space marines (Rogue Trader 1987) were in fact Chaos Warriors (from the northmen 1983/1984) - the most popular addition to old, old warhammer. I guess GW wanted to take that to do the best financially when they launched 40k.

Karl Ustracutter here from "The Magnificent Sven" introductory scenario from the 2nd edition in 1984 is a kind of origin for the heavily armoured, sword and board warrior that would become a chaos warrior (the berserker becoming a marauder) in the chaos army that emerged. The 'good' side did have a comparable heavily armoured hero - Sven, a dwarf.

The key thing (then) for a chaos warrior was chaos plate - setting the warrior apart from the marauders and other northmen.

"...known famously for wearing legendary suits of daemonic Chaos Plate Armor. These men are amongst the greatest Human Warriors within the northlands, for the process to obtain such magnificent armor means that the Warrior has conquered many challenges and was awarded a degree of favor from the Dark Gods themselves. Eternally encased within thick plate armor, these hulking warriors are considered the True "Warriors of Chaos"." http://whfb.lexicanum.com/wiki/Warriors_of_Chaos

This idea of a permanent metal shell and 'gifts' from a supreme being, though not a trope born from Chaos Warriors alone, was the seed for Space Marines in 40k. There was no 'linked to their armour' and super human good fantasy equivalent before space marines.

So it's almost gone full circle and will have (near enough) when/if deathcast are released - evil (well chaotic - let's say chaotic evil) fantasy super being in a metal shell > good scifi super being in a metal shell > good fantasy super being in a metal shell > evil (well undead - let's say lawful evil?) fantasy super being in a metal shell.

I know, or I guess, some real die-hard fans who've been into this stuff longer than I (I started like 7 years after 1983 so I was exposed to space marines first and read this inspiration story myself at a young age) have written long essays on this stuff - tying together the threads that citadel miniatures/GW used to weave their ideas: Tolkien, Herbert (Dune), Alien and more.

 

[Turragor]

PS Admins can move this to another sub forum if they like. I mean it's not totally AoS related.

[stratigo]

I'm not sure how this relates to not wanting to see more space marines. Most are aware that space marines were aesthetically derivative of chaos warriors at the time, but it's not like rogue trader marines are the same today as they were 30 years ago.

 

A lot of people are tired of space marines, and bemoan space marine derivatives in AoS, and no mistake, stormcast are very derivative, in aesthetics, purpose, and culture. Which is why they are the designated protagonist faction. Of course GW would throw their fantasy equivalents of space marines up front and center, it's good business. I just wish they tempered it a little. The stormcast range is, frankly, too large when compared to other armies or even entire alliances. GW is in danger of creating the same kind of death spiral that bretonnia circled by 8th edition, where lack of support kills an army's popularity, thus it never gets support, tanking the popularity harder.

[Turragor]

Well I feel that a longer view of the hobby history is fun and a kind of way point for where gw might go perhaps. 

I have no interest in just defending stormcast. That's not so important. Even if I think it is more stale as a criticism than the high rate of stormcast release is itself. 

I got caught up in tracing the history of the citadel and gw mini designs. How they evolve in loops. I'd celebrate the fact that it's so derivative with unique twists.  The newest minis show theyre still all about that. Honing their craft with some new twists but building on what works. 

And perhaps that means a portion of each factions fanbase will be getting upset with any update to their line. You can't please everyone.

It's kind of like one of the great series of posts I see @Killax (I believe) make about vehicles and those designs from the end of 8th that the fantasy community was in part already rejecting.

So I overall like the idea of a history thread as a way of looking at all these kinds of things. 

Ofc maybe no one else does and then the forum will work like it should and the thread will sail to the bottom

 

[Pigbones]

1 hour ago, Turragor said:

The inspiration for space marines (Rogue Trader 1987) were in fact Chaos Warriors (from the northmen 1983/1984) - the most popular addition to old, old warhammer. I guess GW wanted to take that to do the best financially when they launched 40k.

As someone who got into the hobby only in the past several years, I had no idea about this. It was absolutely fascinating to read.

[Malakree]

So you took a portion of my quote out of context  to make your own. In doing so you absented a huge part of the reasoning and logic plus twisted what I had said into a much more rigid point for you to argue against. 

4 hours ago, Malakree said:

It's more that people(or just me?) don't want to see yet more spacemarines. Stormcast are already incredibly close to it and having them in death would just be flogging an (un)dead horse.

Each of the four factions does have an identity and a general aesthetic to them, mixing them just waters everything down. There are so many ways to expand on the themes that death already has built in that pirating the order ones is not just lazy but frustrating. 

Development of the Morghast themes, more deathrattle, deadwalkers shambling hordes, the vampiric legions and their thralls or, as they seem to be doing, nighthaunt etherals. Each of those is so much more interesting than stormcast.

So yeah, hopefully no death based stormcast. Would be a complete waste of so many amazing themes.

Being the full quote.

40k

As someone who started playing in 2nd edition 40k when I was 5 I appreciate a lot of the history behind the brands. We also have to note that both brands have changed massively over the years, you only have to look at the artwork and painting for the second edition to realise that it's got a totally different feel.

When I got back into the hobby after a long break one of the reasons I was attracted to sigmar was the aesthetic. The wide range of different looks and feels, the historic/steampunk aspects of it and just the general fantasy setting. When you look at 40k aesthetically it all draws from the spacemarine base, look at the codexes which have been released so far for 8th edition. 

• Chaos Space Marines
• Death Guard
• Grey Knights
• Space Marines
• Blood Angels
• Dark Angels

That's 6 different variations of spacemarine. On the other hand we have

• Astra Militarum
• Craftworlds
• Adeptus Mechanicus
• Tyranids

Four none spacemarine codexes of which only one is exceptionally different.

Sigmar

Sigmar has it's spacemarines, it has the stormcast who are aesthetically similar(bland) in a lot of ways. They also have some amazingly nice models like the drakoths and stardrake which are very distinctly fantasy. On the other hand the vast majority of armies are NOT spacemarines, Slaves to Darkness are the closest but even they are noticeably distinct from stormcast. 

When you then  begin looking at all the minor factions, especially death as I said in the full quote, there are so many beautiful concepts which just haven't been explored. To then have GW go the lazy route of "it's a dead stormcast!!" is disappointing in so many ways. Look at the morghasts, they are stunning and imposing models. The covern throne and mortis engine, the Mortarchs, Deathrattle, Nighthaunt, corpse cart, all the different vampires.

Now this isn't condemning the lore behind "freed" stormcast serving Nagash. For example he could rip their souls from the armour then forge that disembodied soul into a new type of mortarch, bring forth new and powerful Spectors and Wraiths. However when you say "Deathcast" it's not the lore you're invoking, it's the aesthetic. It's a new death model which is to stormcast what chaos spacemarines are to loyalist spacemarines. That's what people are objecting to.

Grand Alliance: Death has 56 items available on the webstore, Stormcast has 50. What I'm hoping to see is more variety, not just a re-skinned Stormcast army. 

Hopefully this more complete post will help you understand the sentiments behind the statement better.

[Turragor]

20 minutes ago, Malakree said:

Hopefully this more complete post will help you understand the sentiments behind the statement better.

 

Glad you added back in, as I wasn't intending to twist anything. I've no interest in defending any position really. I'll just remove your original quote so you feel less rubbed the wrong way.

If anyone is curious it was just a short excerpt from the larger quote he included above: It's more that people(or just me?) don't want to see yet more spacemarines.

[TeddyMadeMeDoIt]

To the nature of the topic title one thing I really love about something that has come full circle is the reintroduction of Alliances

It's sound like @Turragor you got into this around the same time as me (34) in the 90's, you and others around may remember when you putting a list together back then you of course had the chosen army to choose from but then also a list of recruitable Monsters and Dogs of War, you ended up with a real mix of things in a list rather than just units from that particular race.

I feel the alliance rules now do a great job of making me feel that excitement again of mixing things up and having so much more choice in what I can take and also come up against. From a painting point of view (my main point of view) it also lends to some great themed armies. I used to love seeing pictures in the old White Dwarfs of a full army in all its glory and going g through unit by unit checking out all the great minis

 

Kudos to Grand Alliances old and new! 

[Riavan]

Yeah look while we have had stormcast, we have had tons of other new armies that look great. I'm looking forward to seeing the new ones we have already got be fleshed out more.

Also I like the idea of deathcast. I'm glad it's not just chaos.