Archaon faction query

[SlyRebirth]

I'm trying to write a list with Archaon (the new one, not the Compendium one). Based on keywords I *think* I can have him embedded in a native Khorne Daemons list, because he has Daemon and Khorne keywords. But in Azyr, he doesn't come up as an option. The *old* compendium one does, but not the new 700pt version. Is this an oversight, or can he just not be taken in a Khorne Daemon allegiance army (and would therefore have to revert to mixed Chaos lists or Everchosen only)? Thanks! EDIT: If I change allegiance to Khorne instead of Daemons of Khorne, it seems to work... does this impact what allegiance abilities/artifacts can be taken in the Blades of Khorne book? Sorry, I suspect I'm being thick, but I'm just a bit confused!

[Squirrelmaster]

@Iradekhorne We're not saying that; We're saying that in order to use the "allies" rules, all of your "non-allies" have to come from the same table in the GHB2017. Probably. The rules aren't 100% clear.

So (if correct) this would mean you can use the Forgeworld stuff, you just can't take any "allies" along with them.

i.e. a "Khorne" list is one where everything has the "Khorne" keyword, and Archaon can be part of that no problem.

A "Blades of Khorne" list is one where you take your battleline, leader, etc. from the "Blades of Khorne" table in the GHB2017, and up to 400pts (in a 2000pt game) of allies from the factions listed as "Blades of Khorne" allies — allowing you to use the Khorne allegiance abilities and take models that don't have the Khorne keyword. Archaon cannot be a part of that, except as an ally, which can't happen in 2000pts.

[BaldoBeardo]

3 hours ago, Louzi said:

Baldo, no offense, but man...you are totally wrong and it would be just cool, if you stop arguing. It is just confusing for beginners.

Dude, no offense, I stopped posting here some time ago.

[tolstedt]

56 minutes ago, AshCrow said:

He can't be part of a Slaves to Darkness army and I hate that.

The master is no slave.

[yarrickson]

46 minutes ago, AshCrow said:

He can't be part of a Slaves to Darkness army and I hate that.

The rest of us are  relieved he can't as his lack of the STD keyword stops Sayl teleporting him.  

[AshCrow]

Also, there is a distinction between a faction (Blades of Khorne, Disciples of Tzeentch) and an allegiance (Khorne, Tzeentch). Allegiance abilities come from an allegiance and allies come from factions. It's very simple, really. Archaon isn't part of either faction, but can use their allegiance as it has the needed keyword.

[AshCrow]

On 8/9/2017 at 2:12 AM, Iradekhorne said:

You are very wrong.

Only for have the khorne keyword he can be part of a blades of khorne army and be the general, etc. He isnt an ally, he is part of the faction.

Same for tzeentch.

Archaon have the Chaos, daemon, mortal, khorne, tzeentch, nurgle, slaanesh,everchosen, wizard, heroand archaon keywords.

He can be part of daemon and mortal armies of the four gods, he only cant be part of brayherds, warherds, Pestilens, moulder, skyre, eshin and verminus army (if they follow his allegiances).

But he have all other keywords

He can't be part of a Slaves to Darkness army and I hate that.

[tolstedt]

Would it make sense if the EVERCHOSEN EXALTED GRAND MARSHALL OF THE APOCALYPSE couldn't get allegiance for any of the four gods?

[Louzi]

Baldo, no offense, but man...you are totally wrong and it would be just cool, if you stop arguing. It is just confusing for beginners.

[angrycontra]

Stop reading too much what some ghb or app says. There is one available allegiance for khorne, and that is called Khorne. Every unit that has khorne keyword by default or can choose it before battle, can be part of khorne allegiance. Period. Gw has multiple times answered this, hell they even have entry in the official faq about it. Same applies to slaanesh, tzeentch and nurgle (when it comes). Since Archaon has all the chaos keywords he can be part of and be general of everyone of these factions.

I'm gonna end this with what I said already: stop reading into rules so much. This list building isn't some rocket science. You pick faction based on keyword, you pick units that have that keyword, yay you now have allegiance of your choice, and if that allegiance has special abilities, you get full access to them. That's it.

[Louzi]

I rly dont know whats your goal. You have got pretty clear answers. You are wrong. Period.

[Iradekhorne]

18 minutes ago, Squirrelmaster said:

You're missing the point. It's precisely because there are no units with the "Blades of Khorne" keyword that we're saying "Blades of Khorne" is not an allegiance you can have.

Instead "Blades of Khorne" is the name of a faction. Factions and allegiances are presented in the rules as two separate concepts, with only some overlap. Bloodcrushers are definitely part of the "Blades of Khorne" faction, and have "Khorne" allegiance. Archaon has "Khorne" allegiance, but does not appear to be part of the "Blades of Khorne" faction.

But the GHB2017 doesn't provide a list of allowed allies for "Khorne"; It provides a list of allies for "Blades of Khorne". The rules are not clear on how you make an army that qualifies to use allies from that list. It might be that "Blades of Khorne" is just a synonym for "Khorne", and any army with "Khorne" allegiance can use that allies list. Or, it might be that, if you want to use the list of allies presented under the "Blades of Khorne" faction, all of your non-allied units have to come from that faction. Right now, it's open to interpretation.

Well, im going to apply the logic in my games and play "blades of khorne" as they where "khorne", until GW say someting.

[Squirrelmaster]

6 minutes ago, Iradekhorne said:

Then, show or tell me me one warscroll with "blades of khorne" keyword, even if they are listed,.

Or show or tell me where the generals 2017 say "you need be listed under the name of allegiance to be part of it" or similar paragraph.

You're missing the point. It's precisely because there are no units with the "Blades of Khorne" keyword that we're saying "Blades of Khorne" is not an allegiance you can have.

Instead "Blades of Khorne" is the name of a faction. Factions and allegiances are presented in the rules as two separate concepts, with only some overlap. Bloodcrushers are definitely part of the "Blades of Khorne" faction, and have "Khorne" allegiance. Archaon has "Khorne" allegiance, but does not appear to be part of the "Blades of Khorne" faction.

But the GHB2017 doesn't provide a list of allowed allies for "Khorne"; It provides a list of allies for "Blades of Khorne". The rules are not clear on how you make an army that qualifies to use allies from that list. It might be that "Blades of Khorne" is just a synonym for "Khorne", and any army with "Khorne" allegiance can use that allies list. Or, it might be that, if you want to use the list of allies presented under the "Blades of Khorne" faction, all of your non-allied units have to come from that faction. Right now, it's open to interpretation.

[BrAiKo]

I have to agree with Iradekhorne here.  By the dissentors logic a 'Blades of Khorne army' would be different to a Khorne army.  If that is the case then a 'blades of Khorne army' would not have access to the Khorne allegiance abilities as they are for Khorne allegiance.  I agree the tables in GHB would have been less confusing had they just listed 'Khorne' or 'Tzeentch' but they are probably the way they are so that new players know which battletome to look for.

[Iradekhorne]

10 minutes ago, Squirrelmaster said:

@Iradekhorne We're not saying that; We're saying that in order to use the "allies" rules, all of your "non-allies" have to come from the same table in the GHB2017. Probably. The rules aren't 100% clear.

So (if correct) this would mean you can use the Forgeworld stuff, you just can't take any "allies" along with them.

i.e. a "Khorne" list is one where everything has the "Khorne" keyword, and Archaon can be part of that no problem.

A "Blades of Khorne" list is one where you take your battleline, leader, etc. from the "Blades of Khorne" table in the GHB2017, and up to 400pts (in a 2000pt game) of allies from the factions listed as "Blades of Khorne" allies — allowing you to use the Khorne allegiance abilities and take models that don't have the Khorne keyword. Archaon cannot be a part of that, except as an ally, which can't happen in 2000pts.

Then, show or tell me me one warscroll with "blades of khorne" keyword, even if they are listed.

Or show or tell me where the generals 2017 say "you need be listed under the name of allegiance to be part of it" or similar paragraph.

Rokapoke said very well, "may be". If you apply the logic a bit, the blades of khorne refers to KHORNE army, tzeentch arcanites to TZEENTCH army, etc.

How you say, this agelliances cant be pplayed Because this keywords doesnt exist.

[Iradekhorne]

On 7/9/2017 at 3:45 PM, BaldoBeardo said:

Archaon is part of the Everchosen faction. He can be taken as an ally in a Blades/Daemons of Khorne list, but then can't be your general - although he will be able to benefit from any allegiance abilities that require the KHORNE or DAEMON keywords.

He is available in Daemons of Khorne list - select Leaders, then tap "ALLIES" top right, and he appears under Everchosen.

But as he's 700pts, he's too big to be an ally anyway.

Then the Forgeworld models cant be played no? they arent listed

I dont see mourngoul listed on ghb 2017 but he still be played.

The position of the names listed on ghb dosn't matter, one miniature can be part of multiple allegiances.

Show me where you have read that to be part of an alliance you have to be listed within that alliance in generals handbook 2017

Because in generals handbook 2017, on page 116 on the first paragraph of the box say cleary "Only units in the army with the appropriate allegiance keyword can benefit from these abilities."

Show me one unit with "blades of khorne" keyword, does't exist, the only keywords that they share are "khorne" and "chaos". And archaon have both also.

The same for disciples of tzeentch, and slaanesh.

Show me one warscroll with "hosts of slaanesh", "blades of khorne" or "disciples of tzeentch" keyword please.

[rokapoke]

Just now, Iradekhorne said:

nah, is a keyword game bro. One miniature can be part of more than one allegiance, maybye archaon isnt on the "blades of khorne" in ghb2017, but he still having the keyword, and you only need the keyword to be part of the allegiance. 

Blades of khorne allegiance dosnt exist, is KHORNE allegiance.

If blades of khorne is an allegiance then they have exacly 0 units on the faction because any unit of the game contain the  keyword "blades of khorne" on his warscroll, then the "Blades of khorne" allegiance have 0 units xDDDD

To be fair, I believe the Handbook states that allegiances may be keywords, not that they are always keywords. Snark doesn't always pay off.

[Iradekhorne]

nah, is a keyword game bro. One miniature can be part of more than one allegiance, maybie archaon isnt on the "blades of khorne" in ghb2017, but he still having the keyword "khorne", and you only need the keyword to be part of the allegiance. 

Blades of khorne allegiance dosnt exist, is KHORNE allegiance.

If blades of khorne is an allegiance then they have exacly 0 units on the faction because any unit of the game contain the  keyword "blades of khorne" on his warscroll, then the "Blades of khorne" allegiance have 0 units xDDDD

[BaldoBeardo]

5 hours ago, Iradekhorne said:

baldo really... just read the books, The only restriction is have the keyword....  "blades of khorne"  is only the name of the book, the allegiancce is KHORNE and the keyword required is "khorne".

So what's the table in the GHB?

Which has been my point all along. Khorne is an allegiance. "Blades of Khorne" isn't. I have read the books. But the Blades of Khorne 'faction' list in GHB doesn't contain Archaon.

Whatever 'Blades of Khorne' is, you can't use the list in the GHB to construct an army that is led by Archaon.

What you can do is take what is effectively a GA: Chaos army, make sure all units have the Khorne keyword, and have Archaon lead that. 

[Squirrelmaster]

Archaon has the "Khorne" keyword. If everything in your army has the "Khorne" keyword, you can use the "Khorne" allegiance abilities listed in the "Blades of Khorne" book.

That much, everyone seems to pretty much agree on.

Technically, that might mean you are fielding a "Khorne" army rather than a "Blades of Khorne" army, but in this scenario that doesn't really matter, its just quibbling over semantics.

The problem is if you want to include some other, non-Khorne allies on top of that. It seems like maybe you can't, but the wording in the rules isn't clear. If you want to have Khorne allegiance and use non-Khorne units, they have to be allies, which seems to only work if all your non-allied units are taken from the same "faction"… maybe. So either they'd all have to be Everchosen, or Archaon would have to be an "ally". Neither really works.

[Iradekhorne]

baldo really... just read the books, The only restriction is have the keyword....  "blades of khorne"  is only the name of the book, the allegiancce is KHORNE and the keyword required is "khorne".

[Nico]

Thanks for the like @Ben Johnson.

[Nico]

He's not an ally in a Blades of Khorne army - it's a keywords game. They aren't going to list him in the 8 odd places in the GHB where he fits (nor the 15+ Slaves units). The BoK and DoT books make very clear that ANYTHING with their keyword is part of those factions - including principally Slaves to Darkness. They have traits and Artefacts for Mortal Khorne and Bloodbound and Mortal Tzeentch and Arcanite heroes respectively for example.  They are not allies in a Khorne/BoK or Tzeentch/DoT army (which are synonyms as far as I can tell).

To give another example the Forgeworld Rogue Idol has the Greenskinz keyword but is not listed under Greenskinz in the GHB, but has been described as an ally choice and had its points dropped to 400 for this very purpose! It's a keyword game. The GHB faction lists are not closed lists.

[BaldoBeardo]

 

6 hours ago, Iradekhorne said:

You are very wrong.

Only for have the khorne keyword he can be part of a blades of khorne army and be the general, etc. He isnt an ally, he is part of the faction.

Same for tzeentch.

Archaon have the Chaos, daemon, mortal, khorne, tzeentch, nurgle, slaanesh,everchosen, wizard, heroand archaon keywords.

He can be part of daemon and mortal armies of the four gods, he only cant be part of brayherds, warherds, Pestilens, moulder, skyre, eshin and verminus army (if they follow his allegiances).

But he have all other keywords

'BLADES OF KHORNE' IS NOT A KEYWORD.

He can lead an army that has KHORNE allegiance. I said as much. That is not the same thing as the question that was asked.

He can't lead a Blades of Khorne army, unless there is something in the Blades of Khorne book on the subject.

[Iradekhorne]

10 hours ago, BaldoBeardo said:

Archaon is part of the Everchosen faction. He can be taken as an ally in a Blades/Daemons of Khorne list, but then can't be your general - although he will be able to benefit from any allegiance abilities that require the KHORNE or DAEMON keywords.

He is available in Daemons of Khorne list - select Leaders, then tap "ALLIES" top right, and he appears under Everchosen.

But as he's 700pts, he's too big to be an ally anyway.

You are very wrong.

Only for have the khorne keyword he can be part of a blades of khorne army and be the general, etc. He isnt an ally, he is part of the faction.

Same for tzeentch.

Archaon have the Chaos, daemon, mortal, khorne, tzeentch, nurgle, slaanesh,everchosen, wizard, heroand archaon keywords.

He can be part of daemon and mortal armies of the four gods, he only cant be part of brayherds, warherds, Pestilens, moulder, skyre, eshin and verminus army (if they follow his allegiances).

But he have all other keywords

[AverageBoss]

Archaon has the Khorne keyword so he can be used in and lead a Khorne army without using ally points, just as he can with Tzeentch, Nurgle, Slaanesh, and Everchosen.