Twitch of Izalith Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 11 hours ago, Black_Fortress_Immortal said: Here you have the comparison of the Black Guard vs. the Executioners: underlined is the damage sum. The first line of the executioners is just the incoming Mortal wounds. You get around 2-4 wounds more from the Executioners (depending on the enemies save), BUT remember that the Black Guard have a 2" reach and can therefore bring far more attacks in. Think about what a Hurricanum does to a unit of Executioners or the Black Guard. It is pure awesomeness. This is one I did run the sums on! If you are going to run 30's the BG start to look really tasty against high numbers of low armour troops. In 20's or less I can still get all the executioners in play. Another big thing is all the options for -1 to hit that are out there. That really hurts the executioners. I do have a "best of order" and a Hurricanum list somewhere. I was gonna convert a Cauldron of Blood to be my Hurricanum. I would love some Reapers! I didn't collect Dark Elves in Warhammer Fantasy days though so I don't have the models. Every time I was going to start them it would turn out there was already 2 or 3 people running them so I would get something else. When I started to play AoS I thought it was a good chance to stake a claim while they are less popular! Like you said, I think the look of the army is the most important thing and how fun it is to play . I like to talk about the competitive stuff but its not really a big deal. I would rather run all Dark Elves at least if not full Darkling Covens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black_Fortress_Immortal Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 1 hour ago, Twitch of Izalith said: I don't mean to sound argumentative but I'm basing what i'm saying on playing games against competitive people with competitive lists, not doing math. If 30 bloodletters doing mortal wounds on a 3+ with +1 attack from a bloodsecrator charge into my unit of 30 bleakswords most of them will die. If the same thing charges into 30 skinks most of them will also die. Their survivability is the same. but I only lose 180 secondary VP's if 30 skinks get wiped and I lose 300 if 30 Bleakswords get wiped. AND if I get the chance to take priority in the combat skinks can run away and not give anything up - but they still did their job and stopped the charge before it got to an important unit. I don't think they are bad at all but there is a long list of better tar-pit units and a long list of better chaff units which is why I don't think they are very good either. They are not experts at anything - just average at everything. I love running them in less punchy games - but if you throw them in the shark tank they just don't hold up. Your 1 scenario of 1 specifically maximally buffed unit charging into your bleakswords vs. skinks, is just 1 scenario out of so many. It doesn't matter what 30 bloodletters with 3 attacks each charges into, they're going to die unless it's Chaos Warriors. Stormcast charging into Bleakswords won't kill them all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redbaron Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 Thanks for that, @Twitch of Izalith And I see that, with perfect timing, a new warhammer tv video has appeared for 'the shadow queen' that seems to massively hint at DoK being about to play a big role in malign portents. (Why did they ever split them off from the dark elves, I wonder?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twitch of Izalith Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 10 hours ago, Black_Fortress_Immortal said: Your 1 scenario of 1 specifically maximally buffed unit charging into your bleakswords vs. skinks, is just 1 scenario out of so many. It doesn't matter what 30 bloodletters with 3 attacks each charges into, they're going to die unless it's Chaos Warriors. Stormcast charging into Bleakswords won't kill them all. lol, ok lets agree to disagree on it. We just have different estimations of where a unit becomes "good" I have probably got 40+ games with Darkling Covens and my mates all play filth so believe me, I can give you quite a few examples of units and armies that will destroy bleakswords, dreadspears and darkshards but I don't think it would really help the conversation much... I'm about to defect to the Queen of Shadows anyway.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black_Fortress_Immortal Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 3 minutes ago, Twitch of Izalith said: lol, ok lets agree to disagree on it. We just have different estimations of where a unit becomes "good" I have probably got 40+ games with Darkling Covens and my mates all play filth so believe me, I can give you quite a few examples of units and armies that will destroy bleakswords, dreadspears and darkshards but I don't think it would really help the conversation much... I'm about to defect to the Queen of Shadows anyway.... I hear ya, they're far from a perfect army, and against high armor stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richelieu Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 12 hours ago, Twitch of Izalith said: I don't mean to sound argumentative but I'm basing what i'm saying on playing games against competitive people with competitive lists, not doing math. If 30 bloodletters doing mortal wounds on a 3+ with +1 attack from a bloodsecrator charge into my unit of 30 bleakswords most of them will die. If the same thing charges into 30 skinks most of them will also die. Their survivability is the same. but I only lose 180 secondary VP's if 30 skinks get wiped and I lose 300 if 30 Bleakswords get wiped. AND if I get the chance to take priority in the combat skinks can run away and not give anything up - but they still did their job and stopped the charge before it got to an important unit. I don't think they are bad at all but there is a long list of better tar-pit units and a long list of better chaff units which is why I don't think they are very good either. They are not experts at anything - just average at everything. I love running them in less punchy games - but if you throw them in the shark tank they just don't hold up. How does a unit of bloodletters get to doing mortals on 3+? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twitch of Izalith Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 2 minutes ago, Richelieu said: How does a unit of bloodletters get to doing mortals on 3+? They do mortal wounds on a 6 or more as standard but get +1 to hit for 20+ models so it becomes 5+ Then you get 2 slaughter priests to use the Killing Frenzy blood blessing on them to stack 2 further +1's to take it to 3+ Its nasty and yes you can get it to 2+.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black_Fortress_Immortal Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 6 minutes ago, Twitch of Izalith said: They do mortal wounds on a 6 or more as standard but get +1 to hit for 20+ models so it becomes 5+ Then you get 2 slaughter priests to use the Killing Frenzy blood blessing on them to stack 2 further +1's to take it to 3+ Its nasty and yes you can get it to 2+.... If they're taking Gore Pilgrims, they're not gonna have TONS of Bloodletters. Need to single-drop your battalion, go first, and pray for a Balewind Vortex cast to go off... then you can debuff one unit of Bloodletters, fly your dragon into them with Impossibly Swift, and charge your heavy hitter or swords/spears into the other with Decanter used, the push from the Balewind, and the run + charge command ability. Not impossible, but only going to work some of the time. Khorne is dangerous. You have to either eat their charge or hit first. I'm used to eating charges with Cunning Deceiver up. The -2 to hit your Dragon will help her to survive the first combat phase. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redbaron Posted January 26, 2018 Share Posted January 26, 2018 As we have recently had a battletome announced for DoK, I was wondering what people think it could mean for Darkling Covens? I know there is a healthy overlap, and people could easily do a combined collection - do people feel the battletome will see DoK boost in popularity, potentially with a lot more DC units appearing as allies? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black_Fortress_Immortal Posted January 26, 2018 Share Posted January 26, 2018 4 hours ago, Redbaron said: As we have recently had a battletome announced for DoK, I was wondering what people think it could mean for Darkling Covens? I know there is a healthy overlap, and people could easily do a combined collection - do people feel the battletome will see DoK boost in popularity, potentially with a lot more DC units appearing as allies? They can be allies, and I'm curious to see what units will be added to DoK. I just started DC recently and plan to stick with it, but I'm open to supplementing the army with Allies from DoK. I actually think that the new release for DoK could potentially have some great potential, depending on what they are... I wouldn't mind some longer-range shooting, flying, or mortal wound output from some new units. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kramer Posted January 28, 2018 Share Posted January 28, 2018 On 26-1-2018 at 5:40 PM, Redbaron said: As we have recently had a battletome announced for DoK, I was wondering what people think it could mean for Darkling Covens? I know there is a healthy overlap, and people could easily do a combined collection - do people feel the battletome will see DoK boost in popularity, potentially with a lot more DC units appearing as allies? I think defensive units (dreadspears/black guards). As the Medusa unit showed a ranged option, the harpies will offer flying, and witch elves on the offensive can be great (and the battleline). And maybe a sorcerers if morathi is the only sorceress. But it’s all speculation based on practically nothing. If the Medusa models don’t deal mortal wounds. Executioners are a good bet. If the harpies can’t hit a tree from close range, order serpentis might be a ore useful ally for something with speed that can deal some damage. We just don’t know yet. But ‘it’s hot on the heels’ of the death battle tome. And seeing as the malign portents campaign is about to start... it’s still a too long of a wait ps. Just in case you haven’t noticed it’s the first release since aos started that got me unreservedly excited!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaleun Posted January 28, 2018 Share Posted January 28, 2018 the discussion about dok is just speculative, but the new Harpies might give us an additional "fast Cavalry" unit with the fly keyword. The Bow-Medusas whield pretty big bows. I expect them to finally have rend which gives the dark elve faction a ranged fire unit with rend capabilities. Really looking forward to that big incarnation of the Shadow Queen. We might finally also get a huge unit. Hopefully useful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black_Fortress_Immortal Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 On 1/28/2018 at 3:44 PM, Kaleun said: the discussion about dok is just speculative, but the new Harpies might give us an additional "fast Cavalry" unit with the fly keyword. The Bow-Medusas whield pretty big bows. I expect them to finally have rend which gives the dark elve faction a ranged fire unit with rend capabilities. Really looking forward to that big incarnation of the Shadow Queen. We might finally also get a huge unit. Hopefully useful. I would think that there's going to be some mortal wound output with the ranged, and/or having a heavy rend or long-range shot due to DoK having zero offensive access to either (aside from a medusa stare... haha). I would hedge my bets on taking a Thrall Warhost with Bow Medusae support as being a good option (hopefully). Speculative right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twitch of Izalith Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 On 28/01/2018 at 8:31 PM, Kramer said: ps. Just in case you haven’t noticed it’s the first release since aos started that got me unreservedly excited!! Haha - with you on that one! I've watched that promo video so many times its ridiculous. Its even inspired me to try and learn to paint properly instead of just "good enough to play with". I don't want to let the shadow queen down with a half assed paint job. More models in the dark elf factions is going to be good for all of them I think. I'm guessing that DoK might have prayers instead of spells - for everyone but Morathi but I could be totally wrong on that. Either way the DC sorceress is one of the most useful ally pieces out there so I'm sure she will be staying in my DoK list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redbaron Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 There's a very healthy cross-over between DC and DoK - not just in theme, but also gamers! I see a lot of people comment on both 'let's chat' groups. It's great when a new release catches your imagination, isn't it? I'm saving up now, waiting to see how things play out with DoK. I agree that lots of DC units would likely combine seamlessly with them. Sorceress and SoBD most clearly, but executioners and even defensive units like dreadspears are likely to be handy for a faction that gives every appearance of being very attack-focussed. ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kramer Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 5 hours ago, Twitch of Izalith said: More models in the dark elf factions is going to be good for all of them I think. I'm guessing that DoK might have prayers instead of spells - for everyone but Morathi but I could be totally wrong on that. That is a very good thought. Most likely true. fit's with the old fluff as well. I like it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DantePQ Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 I would love to field Sorceress on Dragon but her spell is so sad amazing model Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black_Fortress_Immortal Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 3 hours ago, DantePQ said: I would love to field Sorceress on Dragon but her spell is so sad amazing model It's a fairly good spell... you're bound to do 2-4 mortal wounds on average. I'll take hero-phase ranged mortal wound output any day of the week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twitch of Izalith Posted January 31, 2018 Share Posted January 31, 2018 16 hours ago, Kramer said: That is a very good thought. Most likely true. fit's with the old fluff as well. I like it. I was kinda forgetting about the Doomfire warlocks! which is dumb of me since they are DoK's only wizard keywords so far. I always think of them as my ranged attack though. They wouldn't fit having prayers. I originally thought they might switch it to a magical shooting attack but having seen 2 new ranged units I think that's less likely now. It would be great if bigger units of doomfires got more spells or bonuses to cast - Doombolt looks good in theoryhammer but it rarely does much in actual games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DantePQ Posted January 31, 2018 Share Posted January 31, 2018 I hope their spell won't change and they will get access to new magic lore. I find it quite possible then they will be our spellcasters (without hero level spellcaster). +1 to cast rolls and unbiding for 10+ units sounds great but on the other hand two units then = more spells. If doombolt stays - for unit of 10 it's 6 mortal auto wounds i n 18'' for 5 (with +1 to cast) casting value spell that's huge and even unit of less then 10 it's D6 mortals. So choice between 2 small units and one big isn't that obvious and I like that kind of decision when building an army. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twitch of Izalith Posted January 31, 2018 Share Posted January 31, 2018 Yeah the problem at the moment is that the optimum units sizes of 5 or 10 only need to lose 1 model to get a major dent in their effectiveness. 15 is to expensive and risky for a unit thats not immune to battleshock that tends to be off on its own away from support. They are decent units but unreliable. I almost always run 2 units of 5 but its their movement that occasionally wins the game for me rather than the spell. A standard D6 or flat 6 at 6+ models would be better. I don't see why not since Tzeentch have a bunch of models that can throw one or more D6 damage spells. Combat armies are getting weaker and weaker with every release i.m.o. There are so many builds with 3 saves, negtives to hit and regrow mechanics that an average combat army like Ironjaws, bloodbound, Beastclaw, Slaves to Darkness - or any of the dark elf builds is really starting to struggle. There are so many ways for people to become immune to battleshock too. I really hope those Medusae with bows are like snakey, witchy Skyfires because we're going to need them for assassinating Death characters and trying to do 16 wounds to GUO's in one round before they grow them all back again! Fun times ahead! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nutty Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 Hello everyone, It'd be great to het some inpuy as I'm currently in the process of rebasing/repairing/repainting my old Dark Elf 'warriors'. Since al lot of the arms came off over the years, I have a few options in rebuilding these guys. Now I've looked into the differences between Bleakswords/Dreadspears/Darkshards, and they all seem to have their uses. The part I'm stuck on is how many I 'need' of each, I should have about 80 of them in total. Is any of the three worth fielding in maxed out groups, for the discount? Or are smaller groups plenty; either as groups as 20-30 for the bonus, or several smaller units making use of the Darkling Covens? I might pick up one of the new boxes in a while; just to have some of the new models to play with and maybe use as command models or something. But for now I'd like to fix up the models I have laying around and use them to play some games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black_Fortress_Immortal Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 2 hours ago, Nutty said: Hello everyone, It'd be great to het some inpuy as I'm currently in the process of rebasing/repairing/repainting my old Dark Elf 'warriors'. Since al lot of the arms came off over the years, I have a few options in rebuilding these guys. Now I've looked into the differences between Bleakswords/Dreadspears/Darkshards, and they all seem to have their uses. The part I'm stuck on is how many I 'need' of each, I should have about 80 of them in total. Is any of the three worth fielding in maxed out groups, for the discount? Or are smaller groups plenty; either as groups as 20-30 for the bonus, or several smaller units making use of the Darkling Covens? I might pick up one of the new boxes in a while; just to have some of the new models to play with and maybe use as command models or something. But for now I'd like to fix up the models I have laying around and use them to play some games. I have limited experience, but a discounted blob of 40 spears/swords with mystic shield is... great... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaleun Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 11 hours ago, Nutty said: Hello everyone, It'd be great to het some inpuy as I'm currently in the process of rebasing/repairing/repainting my old Dark Elf 'warriors'. Since al lot of the arms came off over the years, I have a few options in rebuilding these guys. Now I've looked into the differences between Bleakswords/Dreadspears/Darkshards, and they all seem to have their uses. The part I'm stuck on is how many I 'need' of each, I should have about 80 of them in total. Is any of the three worth fielding in maxed out groups, for the discount? Or are smaller groups plenty; either as groups as 20-30 for the bonus, or several smaller units making use of the Darkling Covens? I might pick up one of the new boxes in a while; just to have some of the new models to play with and maybe use as command models or something. But for now I'd like to fix up the models I have laying around and use them to play some games. Personally I have 30 Darkshards and 40-50 Dreadspears in my collection. But I would recommend to choose 3 Boxes first. You want to paint units of 10 by 10 not to many all at once. Take your time while collecting and dont build your army to fast is my recommendation. 3x10 is actually the minimum you need for a 2000 point order game or to field the Thrall Warhost Battalion. In this edition of the Generals Handbook I would choose Bleakswords over the Dreadspears (check out this thread why). Darkshards are also a good option. However please take into consideration that point costs and the efficiency of single units often changes a lot with new editions. So you should build what you prefer personally and enjoy painting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nutty Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 1 hour ago, Kaleun said: Personally I have 30 Darkshards and 40-50 Dreadspears in my collection. But I would recommend to choose 3 Boxes first. You want to paint units of 10 by 10 not to many all at once. Take your time while collecting and dont build your army to fast is my recommendation. 3x10 is actually the minimum you need for a 2000 point order game or to field the Thrall Warhost Battalion. In this edition of the Generals Handbook I would choose Bleakswords over the Dreadspears (check out this thread why). Darkshards are also a good option. However please take into consideration that point costs and the efficiency of single units often changes a lot with new editions. So you should build what you prefer personally and enjoy painting. Well I already have a bunch of them laying around (and a number of other Dark Elf models) so a good bit of collecting has already been done. I think I'll be building a mix of all three; the main thing is that they all get a boost in units of 20+, and I'm trying to work out the ratio. If I'm using the Darkling Covens Alliegance this won't be to big a deal, as long as they are near each other they will be able to make use of the buff. If I want to use some of the other units I have laying around I might have to use the generic 'Order' alliegance, and I won't be able to use the numbers of nearby units to get the boost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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