Let's chat Phoenix Temple

[Cinncinnatus]

Hi all,

 

With the advent of the GHB17, I've been going over potential lists for my aelven collection, and the Phoenix Guard stood out in particular. With the point reductions that they got across the board and the advent of allies I now feel that a Phoenix Temple list can be competitive. Witness to Destiny across the board makes them next to impossible to shift off an objective. And well placed Anointed's completely mitigate battleshock concerns. And now with allies, they can fully realize the potential of attuned to magic. So without further ado, here is the list I've put together for critique.

 

Frostheart w/ Anointed   General Tenacious (or Legendary Fighter), Relic Blade or Phoenix Stone

Frostheart w/ Anointed

Phoenix Guard   30  Battleline

Phoenix Guard   30  Battleline

Phoenix Guard   10  Battleline

Anointed

Spellweaver           Ally

Archmage w/ Dragon   Ally

 

The idea with this list is that the Spellweaver casts mystic shield on the Archmage or the Frosthearts, triggering Attuned to Magic (gives +1 save to the Frosthearts on a 2+ roll). The Archmage then casts his purge magic spell on whoever doesn't have the mystic shield up, which is a 4+. Spell won't have any impact but will trigger Attuned to Magic again. Once the Archmage and Frosthearts move up, the Archmage's ability to cast two spells will mean he can cast Mystic Shield on himself and throw around an Arcane bolt or his purge magic spell, constantly triggering attuned to magic. Lets not forget that the Archmage is on a dragon too, so he can toss around more mortal wounds as well. So with this strategy in mind, the Frosthearts will hopefully have a 3+ save in addition to a 4++ save. They won't go down easily, and with their high movements they can hopefully gum up an enemy army's advance. Obviously the Archmage becomes the obvious target, but even once he goes down if your enemy has any magic as well attuned to magic will still be triggered.

 

The Phoenix Guard's job is simple; move up onto objectives and be unkillable. They aren't bad in a fight, even without rend. and with the command ability of the anointed to reroll wound rolls they can be vicious. If the Frosthearts are nearby as well, with their Blizzard Aura ability, opponents will find the Phoenix Guards too much to handle.

 

The weakness of this army is that it has extremely limited range and the only truly mobile units are the Frosthearts and the Archmage. 

 

So what do you think? Is there anything I'm not considering? Any changes you think should be made?

 

 

 

 

[pablolimey]

You could get some Sisters of the Watch and paint their magical bows frosty blues to match your Phoenix! That should give you some ranged attacks from behind the shield wall of Phoenix guard. 

[swarmofseals]

I think it could be reasonably good, and you actually have some more points to play with:

Phonixes (Phoenices?) - 480

PG - 1000

Archmage on Dragon - 320

Spellweaver - 80

That puts you at 1900, but you can't actually do anything with it I guess because you are already full on allies. I think the list has potential, but the wasted points rubs me the wrong way! It wouldn't technically be a Phoenix Temple list, but I'd prefer doing something like this:

 

2x Frostheart Phoenix with Anointed - 480

Archmage on Dragon - 320

Loremaster - 100

3 x 10 High Aelf Spearmen (battleline) - 240

2 x 30 Phoenix Guard - 840

 

The list should function very similarly but it puts a few more bodies on the table and upgrades the Spellweaver to the much more useful Loremaster. 

[Cinncinnatus]

@swarmofseals You forgot my Anointed on foot! 80 points for an additional battleshock immunization, slightly under 2000 at 1960. I really wanted to get that Loremaster in there, but that would mean taking the drakeseer, who can only cast one spell per turn. I think it could still work well with that combo, but Attuned to Magic is critical to the strategy and the archmage gives you more flexibility. The spellweaver is a suboptimal wizard, as her spell won't really work on anything, including herself really, but she is 80 points for a mystic shield or arcane bolt outlet.

 

At this point in AoS' life, I'm hesitant to put any compendium units in there. Just my own personal preference but I'd go Freeguild Guard for the same cost. But I think it could work along the same lines, just now you have chaff with the spearmen and backline troops.

[swarmofseals]

Aha, yes the Anointed on foot. Good call!

[jamierk]

Don't forget a good old hurricanum as an option. Great spells, good synergy with the Phoenix guard as it really makes them extra choppy and can help you launch a frosty at someone. Hurricanum and loremaster will give you serious alpha strike capabilities


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[jamierk]

I was looking the other direction for my allies, what would be the best shooting accompanyment to my Phoenix temple list, as ability to remove the opponents buff wagons is likely to count more I think. I'm looking at options:

Knight venator?
Thunderers?
Judicators?
Mortars?
Kurnoth hunters

What do you think the best snipers (unsupported/unbuffed) are in order?


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[Burf]

4 hours ago, jamierk said:

I was looking the other direction for my allies, what would be the best shooting accompanyment to my Phoenix temple list, as ability to remove the opponents buff wagons is likely to count more I think. I'm looking at options:

Knight venator?
Thunderers?
Judicators?
Mortars?
Kurnoth hunters

What do you think the best snipers (unsupported/unbuffed) are in order?


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Unbuffed is vanguard raptors.

[WABBIT]

Wow Phoenix guard on azyr is 160/240pts. I got 150 of em in 5 units, 2 Frosties with anointed and one anointed on foot. I still have 200pts spare for allies....  bring it on kunning ruk.

 

get em cheap while you can I don't think it's going to last.

 

proof

 

[Burf]

I actually think that full pheonix temple allegience isn't the way to go. With how good skinks are for 60pts, using them as battleline is just so nice and frees the pheonixes up far more than the 400pts of allies.

Here's one I've been thinking about:

Alarielle: 600

Frostheart phoenix Gen: MoD PG 240

Frostheart Phoenix: 240

Flamespyre Pheonix: 240

Anointed on foot/ Mistweaver: 80

3x10 skinks: 180

1x30 Phoenix Guard: 420pts

 

And there are about 150 million  variations that could all work around the same core of 3x10 skinks 2 frosthearts and 30 phoenix guard.

 

[Chris Tomlin]

Cool thread!

I have a Phoenix Temple army half assembled and in boxes. Really excited by the project now as allies really help with the ability to get some Mages in to buff the Phoenixes. I will be painting this over the winter ready for Tournaments in 2018.

Whilst suggestions like @Burf's are clearly good from a game point of view, I am definitely approaching the project from a thematic sense so am not sure how I feel about 30 Skinks running around. You could do something cool with Saurus riding Pterosaurs as counts as Phoenixes (this would actually be amazing!), but for what I'm doing it wouldn't work.

The first list I drafted was;

3x Anointed on Frostheart Phoenix
2x 30 Phoenix Guard
10 Phoenix Guard

Loremaster
Archmage
3 Aetherwings

The Aetherwings were just there as I had 60 points spare and would look cool if painted like the Phoenixes. A better option may be to downgrade the Loremaster (though he is awesome) to a second Archmage and put in an Anointed on foot. Could also look at a different wizard option to keep the Loremaster and the Anointed (Sorceress/Spell Weaver etc). Think I maybe prefer this thinking about it now. Hmmm.

A Dragon Mage would also be a really cool addition.

[WABBIT]

You need the anointed on foot to buff your guard or you'll have to keep your anointed on frost heart nearby. No Battle shock tests if within 8" of Phoenix Heroes.

Also Burf regarding "Frostheart phoenix Gen: MoD PG 240" - its 260 pts now. I assume you mean Anointed riding Phoenix?

 

[Thomas Lyons]

1 hour ago, Chris Tomlin said:

Cool thread!

I have a Phoenix Temple army half assembled and in boxes. Really excited by the project now as allies really help with the ability to get some Mages in to buff the Phoenixes. I will be painting this over the winter ready for Tournaments in 2018.

Whilst suggestions like @Burf's are clearly good from a game point of view, I am definitely approaching the project from a thematic sense so am not sure how I feel about 30 Skinks running around. You could do something cool with Saurus riding Pterosaurs as counts as Phoenixes (this would actually be amazing!), but for what I'm doing it wouldn't work.

The first list I drafted was;

3x Anointed on Frostheart Phoenix
2x 30 Phoenix Guard
10 Phoenix Guard

Loremaster
Archmage
3 Aetherwings

The Aetherwings were just there as I had 60 points spare and would look cool if painted like the Phoenixes. A better option may be to downgrade the Loremaster (though he is awesome) to a second Archmage and put in an Anointed on foot. Think I maybe prefer this thinking about it now. Hmmm.

A Dragon Mage would also be a really cool addition.

I also have a mostly build and partially waiting Phoenix Temple army I've been considering finishing.  I agree that thematics/aestetics are a big deal with this army.  I had already planned on doing a bunch of conversions for this army and so have put some though into this.

Some conversions that might work well include

• Other Bird-aesthetic units including Aetherwings, Skycutters, and Knight Venators.
• Other Flaming-aesthetic units including Sisters of the Watch (flaming bows!) and High Elf mage with flaming staff & flaming sword.
• Infantry conversions of Eternal Guard using the bird shields from the Dark Riders kit. This could fill holes by giving us cheap bodies.
• Ranged conversions of SCE Longstrike units using Phoenix Guard manning the Xbows.  This obviously would go particularly well with supporting units of Aetherwings.

These are just some ideas I wanted to throw out there for people as they're brainstorming their armies.  Some of these definitely fill holes in the army as well (Longstrikes help fill that ranged niche).  

   

[Chris Tomlin]

Some nice ideas there @Thomas Lyons. I particularly like the last two. Definitely some food for thought there.

This definitely seems like a project I'll end up painting more than 2,000 points for!

[Thomas Lyons]

Just now, Chris Tomlin said:

Some nice ideas there @Thomas Lyons. I particularly like the last two. Definitely some food for thought there.

This definitely seems like a project I'll end up painting more than 2,000 points for!

I have tons of nice ideas but I don't have enough time to complete all my projects, so I figured I'd share :-)

[Chris Tomlin]

1 minute ago, Thomas Lyons said:

I have tons of nice ideas but I don't have enough time to complete all my projects, so I figured I'd share :-)

I know the feeling!!  

Cheers though. Work on this project will start week commencing 20/11/17. Looking forward to it for sure.

[Carlito_1982]

I have been writing so many lists it's crazy. Most of which will never see the light of day sadly!!

I was writing a few Mixed Elf lists built around solid blocks of Phoenix guard. I really want to use the drop in points of the dragonlord. With a Loremaster he is always a pretty decent choice. Thoughts on a drakesear over a anointed on Phoenix?

Chris that is a very specific painting schedule you have there!!


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[Unabatedtuna]

I have been having a good time with this list.

Anointed Of Asuryan On Frostheart Phoenix (240)
- General
- Command Trait : Master of Defense
- Artefact : Phoenix Stone
Anointed Of Asuryan On Flamespyre Phoenix (240)
- Artefact : Obstinate Blade
Anointed Of Asuryan On Flamespyre Phoenix (240)
- Artefact : Relic Blade
Archmage On Dragon (320)
- Magestaff & Book of Hoeth
- Artefact : Talisman of Blinding Light
Units
10 x Phoenix Guard (160)
10 x Phoenix Guard (160)
10 x Phoenix Guard (160)
10 x Phoenix Guard (160)
10 x Phoenix Guard (160)
10 x Phoenix Guard (160)

 

 

The guard splits off into groups of 2 units each, with the banners and low squad size,  battle shock isn't an issue.

These guys are tough buggers to kill,  so they can spread out for objectives.  I send the behemoths where the fighting is thickest.  Using the flamespyre to carpet bomb in and out of combats.   Everyone at my shop complains about my army's ability to just shrug off pretty much everything

 

[WABBIT]

Unless your playing open play or narrative rules You have too many artefacts. You're only allowed 1 artefact plus 1 for each battalion you have which is none.

also anointed on Phoenix is 260pts its 240pts without the rider

 

be careful using warscroll builder or the Azyr app as they are riddled with mistakes at the moment. Also check the GHB2017

[BURF1]

On 8/29/2017 at 8:59 AM, WABBIT said:

You need the anointed on foot to buff your guard or you'll have to keep your anointed on frost heart nearby. No Battle shock tests if within 8" of Phoenix Heroes.

Also Burf regarding "Frostheart phoenix Gen: MoD PG 240" - its 260 pts now. I assume you mean Anointed riding Phoenix?

 

It's not 260, it's 240. I'm looking at the GHB right now. Unless it was in the FAQ, it's just an Azyr error. Like not being able to take a flamesyre with anointed. And you always assume anointed. Even if it was actuall 20pts more expensive it would be stupid to take a pheonix without an anointed.

[WABBIT]

30 minutes ago, BURF1 said:

It's not 260, it's 240. I'm looking at the GHB right now. Unless it was in the FAQ, it's just an Azyr error. Like not being able to take a flamesyre with anointed. And you always assume anointed. Even if it was actuall 20pts more expensive it would be stupid to take a pheonix without an anointed.

Yes you are correct! Awesome so they are even cheaper. I should read my own advice and read the Generals handbook instead of trusting Azyr. Thanks!

 

I agree with all your other points too.

[maximum_pants]

I've run straight phoenix temple at 5 tournaments this year under ghb 2016. 

@Thomas Lyons I was the guy that played you at adepticon.

i think people are getting a bit carried away with adding phoenix guard hordes and wizards to buff the phoenixes to go super defensive. the 4 frosthearts are what do all the damage in the list, so dropping down to 2 of them, like in the list posted in the first post, i think would cripple the offensive potential too much.

The survivablilty of the list has never been an issue (i often have games where nothing in the army dies at all),  the biggest problem with the list under the old ghb was that it didn't have enough hitting potential, no mortal would output and rend 1 at most.  So it struggled with things like fulminators or treemen  ignoring rend 1, kurnoth hunters etc. that's the thing the list can't deal with.

I got 2 more tournaments with them lined up for october, so i'm going to try some more ally options. but at the moment I'm thinking the longstrike crossbows will fill the void they're missing more than wizards.

and its okay if my phoenixes die, they're only 240 pts and my opponents are so happy when they go down

 

 

[Adeeb]

What list do you run or plan to run? @maximum_pants

I've always wanted to have a high elf army, thinking of getting into Phoenix Temple

[Tiger]

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/09/17/firestorm-the-armies-of-the-great-cities-and-the-elite-of-the-death-guard/#utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=Facebook&utm_campaign=AoSFirestormSep17&utm_content=AoSFirestormSep17

Quote

The new allegiance abilities are designed to represent how these cities fight; the forces of the Phonecium, for instance, are inspired to fight harder by the deaths of their comrades, honouring the Ur-Phoenix, while the armies of Anvilgard crush their foes underfoot in relentless marches. We’ll be previewing some of these next week in detail – what’s more, these are usable in any of your games, not just Firestorm!

Seems neat, I wonder, if it's going to be Stormcasts/Phoenix Temple.

[GammaMage]

I'm a bit dissapointed because it seems like it's not a full allegiance thing. The city allegiance is in addition to your normal allegiance. So I guess if you want to play Phonecium Phoenix Temple you just get the normal Order Artifacts and Command Traits, but an additional battle trait.