Let's chat: Daughters of Khaine

[DantePQ]

6 hours ago, Freejack02 said:

I just want to point out that getting double-turned by a deep deployment alpha-strike list is one of the only ways Morathi can be killed without impacting the game. 3 damage in each turn (without a hero phase to transform) means she's done. It won't be an easy feat for the opponent with the likely debuffs against their shooting/hit, but it's still an uncomfortable scenario for the DoK player. 

Against Clown Car if KO player gives you first turn you just transform right away

@Richelieu it doesn't have to be Lord of Change, Herald can swap and easily blast 2xD6 + D3 mortal wounds with destiny dice he will easily kill Slaughter Queen and Hag and or cripple SCE. Changehost player can easily focus his damage on general and SCE and such army loses then all synergy with SCE units and Gaunt will nuke one block of Witches . Also you won't t be able to cast many sells(if any) 

That's why Cauldron/Bloodwrack Shrine with Amulet of Dark Fire is a set up I believe is awesome against DoT as it can take over 30 mortals (considering two extra saves) if I change to HaggNar its even better. Not to mention other targets DoT player has to address but maybe it's just me and Changehost isn't such a problem

[DJMoose]

Hey there folks.  Long time lurker and Khorne player and like many others I have begun the Daughters of Khaine plunge.  Nice to see that I was not the only one that thought that having a whole army of medusas was awesome, so my current list is very similar to many that have already been posted.

Allegiance: Daughters Of Khaine
- Temple: Khailebron
Leaders
Bloodwrack Medusa (140)
Hag Queen (60)

Battleline
5 x Blood Sisters (140)
5 x Blood Sisters (140)
10 x Witch Elves (100)

Units
5 x Blood Stalkers (160)
5 x Blood Stalkers (160)

Battalions
Temple Nest (80)

Total: 980 / 1000

 

Could switch out the Witch Elves and Hag Queen for some Warlocks for more wizarding, but I don't want to miss out on those sweet Blessings of Khaine. Basic strategy is to use Catachism of Murder on the Medusai to make them more effective, plus some teleport shenanigans or buff/debuffing from the Bloodwrack.  Risky, but going to go with the Crystal Heart for potentially two spells per turn on the Bloodwrack.

My current question is this: how would you deal with Maggotkin Nurgle?  My friend I regularly play against plans on taking a bunch of plaguebearers with Slimex, some blightkings, and nurglings.  And of course the tree spam summoning.  I am a little concerned with the amount of mortal wounds this army can deal out nearly effortlessly. What do you think?

[Black_Fortress_Immortal]

46 minutes ago, DJMoose said:

Hey there folks.  Long time lurker and Khorne player and like many others I have begun the Daughters of Khaine plunge.  Nice to see that I was not the only one that thought that having a whole army of medusas was awesome, so my current list is very similar to many that have already been posted.

Allegiance: Daughters Of Khaine
- Temple: Khailebron
Leaders
Bloodwrack Medusa (140)
Hag Queen (60)

Battleline
5 x Blood Sisters (140)
5 x Blood Sisters (140)
10 x Witch Elves (100)

Units
5 x Blood Stalkers (160)
5 x Blood Stalkers (160)

Battalions
Temple Nest (80)

Total: 980 / 1000

 

Could switch out the Witch Elves and Hag Queen for some Warlocks for more wizarding, but I don't want to miss out on those sweet Blessings of Khaine. Basic strategy is to use Catachism of Murder on the Medusai to make them more effective, plus some teleport shenanigans or buff/debuffing from the Bloodwrack.  Risky, but going to go with the Crystal Heart for potentially two spells per turn on the Bloodwrack.

My current question is this: how would you deal with Maggotkin Nurgle?  My friend I regularly play against plans on taking a bunch of plaguebearers with Slimex, some blightkings, and nurglings.  And of course the tree spam summoning.  I am a little concerned with the amount of mortal wounds this army can deal out nearly effortlessly. What do you think?

Imo, the best counter to Nurgle would be Hag Narr horde with the 5+ fanatic save on all of your units, while hugging your Slaughter Queen on Cauldron general to maximize Orgy of Slaughter.  Medusae Gaze and Pit of Shadows for anti-horde.

[DantePQ]

Yep HaggNarr for several reasons - 5++ save, and re-rolls of all hits from turn 3 on (and even in turn 2 on crucial unit thanks to Sacrament of Blood prayer).

I wouldn't take Pit of Shades unless I really know that I'm playing against Nurgle, it's cool spell but really should 5-6+ to cast as you need to cast it and then beat the M value (even against M4 you can do nothing) and on the other hand even those 8 mortals against horde of M4 guys (2x6s) isn't mindblowing.  

[Black_Fortress_Immortal]

29 minutes ago, DantePQ said:

Yep HaggNarr for several reasons - 5++ save, and re-rolls of all hits from turn 3 on (and even in turn 2 on crucial unit thanks to Sacrament of Blood prayer).

I wouldn't take Pit of Shades unless I really know that I'm playing against Nurgle, it's cool spell but really should 5-6+ to cast as you need to cast it and then beat the M value (even against M4 you can do nothing) and on the other hand even those 8 mortals against horde of M4 guys (2x6s) isn't mindblowing.  

Yeah against a low save army with just layers of saves, a horde and flurry of attacks and resilient wounds is how you'd beat them.  Luckily, your support wizards have anti-horde auto-hit ranged attacks that on avg would do 10 mortal wounds on a 30-strong plaguebearer unit, and say 1/3 get ignored for 6-7 dead on avg.  Not bad imo.

[Burf]

Anybody else notice that you can do khailebron and mirrordance to almost guarantee Morathi a fully buffed 3" charge basically every game? 

Khail move a BloodWrack medusa with mirrordance->Transform Morathi->Buff Morathi->Mirrordance swap->Movement phase move 14 (Mirror dance doesn't stop movement and Morathi didn't khailebron)

[DantePQ]

Yep but it isn't that easy first you need a

Medusa with re-rolls of 1 and+1 to cast item

 And you're only 50% to cast Mindrazor, also I don't remeber if General can use this ability on herself (but that would be only minor setback) but it's spund tactic  but also remeber that with Medusa near enemies they might have unbid in range so it won't work in majority of cases against Tzeentch and/or LoN or any army with ability to unbid with extra bonuses. Of course here positioning comes in place as you can postion himself away from possible unbid but that on the other hand will limit where Morathi can be placed. 

[Keldaur]

Medusa with the rerolls 1 and +1 to cast. if you roll a 4+ in one of the dice (75%) the other dice is 35/36 chances of allowing you to cast mindrazor. I haven't calculated it from there, but I am pretty confident it is higher than 80% chance to get the mindrazor off. 

[DantePQ]

@Keldaur Mindrazor can't be on Medusa as she got to have Mirror Dance , Mindrazor is on Morathi who in bigger shape doesn't have any bonuses to cast so unless she's near arcane terrain it's 50%. And even with re-rolls of 1 and +1 to cast there is huge risk to have it unbid (bigger against certain armies) and you're tosted with transformed Morathi and Medusa in wrong places(Medusa will be probably dead). Also some times against armies with less drops  Morathi will be transformed with 6W left (and she can die in combat phases) 

[Keldaur]

I am taking for granted he gets more than 1 medusa. Probably i read him wrong, but yeah, i wouldn't take mindrazor withouth that artifact, it is not reliable.

[DantePQ]

Even so another Medusa would limit space you can where you can put Morathi as she would need to be 18'' away from second Medusa and smart opponent will capitalize on it. 

[Aeonotakist]

Just one question. I saw the base of Morath only 40mm and the snake form 100mm. If that is true, if I deploy the queen with a half circle of smaller models 1' surrounding her, when I claim the transform, I have no place to setup her in the original place so I have to 'jump' out the circle and setup almost 6' way from original location. With this trick, she can move about 20' in the first turn, becoming a huge obstracle and even able to charge some enemy that deployed wrongly.

Do you think this can be a tactic that work against army move in bubble like Nurgle with Herald on horse? They cannot pass Morathi and screen, they cannot kill Morathi, and they will loose quite some member to Morathi in combat if DoK can popup some buffs on the snake lady.

 

[Varred]

Reading through that thread has been an amazing read, i wonder though if it is possible to build a competitive list around Morathi, cauldron and only Blood Sisters and Heartrenders one-two punch. 

Mind You i never even played a game of AoS as i plan to start with DoK once bank account lets me. 

I imagine harrassing with multiple small units of harpies until i can transformacji Morathi and charge in with big Blood Sisters while cauldron keeps everything somewhat alive. 

Is  that idea viable at all? 

If not, what to change/add? 

[DantePQ]

@Varred time will tell but I imagine such a list has a lot of potential, I played one game with similar build (my first DoK game) and it worked but it was first list I came up with so was far from optimal. I wasn't impressed with 20 Blood Sisters and I'd rather go with 10,but loved heartrenders and flexibility of Morathi. But we are pretty much in the dark right know(considering how good DoK will be in ultra comeptitive games), I am testing different list right know. With only 2 games played it's hard to tell until it I will test it against majority of strong builds. But I will be testing DoK extensively in coming weeks against top-tier builds and very strong players (so far I played against mixeed Order 4 Pheonixes lists and Gnarlroot Sylvaneth with game against NurgleSkaven list tomorrow)  and will be playing first tournament in early-mid April. 

[Keldaur]

5 hours ago, DantePQ said:

Even so another Medusa would limit space you can where you can put Morathi as she would need to be 18'' away from second Medusa and smart opponent will capitalize on it. 

Not really. You have 2 medusa + Morathi. General has mindrazor and the second medusa has mirror dance.  You teleport the nongeneral medusa atleast 24" away from morathi, then you mindrazor morathi with the general (and probably witchbrew + cathecism), and finally, the nongeneral medusa casts mirror dance and swaps herself with morathi since the spell says friendly hero rather than other friendly heroes. Or am I getting the wording of the rule wrong?

You could even have shroud of darkness in morathi so you are almost guaranteed to get the extra damage against most stuff. You can perfectly make a 2drop list with this. Not sure how workable it would be tho. There is also an artifact where you can teleport once per battle so you could potentially teleport morathi with the command trait (at 18" from the general), and use the artifact to teleport the medusa with mirror dance wherever you please, giving you a slingshot of potentially 18"+24"+extra base". That's quite a lot.

 

[Gokken]

Not really the best army builder in the world but I love battalions (not sure why) 

I was thinking something like 

Slaughter Queen on Cauldron Of Blood (330)
Bloodwrack Medusa (140)
Units
5 x Blood Stalkers (160)
5 x Blood Sisters (140)
5 x Blood Sisters (140)
5 x Blood Stalkers (160)
5 x Khinerai Heartrenders (80)
5 x Khinerai Heartrenders (80)
30 x Sisters Of Slaughter (300)
-Pairs of Sacrificial Knives
30 x Sisters Of Slaughter (300)
-Pairs of Sacrificial Knives
Battalions
Temple Nest (80)
Slaughter Troupe (80)
Total: 1990 /2000

for 1k I would use the Temple nest,  and 2k the linked list and 2500 more snakes and maybe 1 more wizard.

I used to play stormcast, and sick and tired of big units with big bases  

I figured I could shoot a lot, have some durable sisters if I gave them shields and Hagg nar temple 

or the +1 to hit on charge temple would also wreck with sisters.

also can be 2 drops, for the person who can pick between Harpies and snakes

also the painting aspect of the hobby is a big part for me so I need a cauldren of blood in the mix, because that thing looks dope as ******! 

Not sure about items and such, Mind razor for sure and the 6 dobbel attack prayer, maybe the item that lets me cast prayers.

 

[Richelieu]

32 minutes ago, Keldaur said:

Not really. You have 2 medusa + Morathi. General has mindrazor and the second medusa has mirror dance.  You teleport the nongeneral medusa atleast 24" away from morathi, then you mindrazor morathi with the general (and probably witchbrew + cathecism), and finally, the nongeneral medusa casts mirror dance and swaps herself with morathi since the spell says friendly hero rather than other friendly heroes. Or am I getting the wording of the rule wrong?

You could even have shroud of darkness in morathi so you are almost guaranteed to get the extra damage against most stuff. You can perfectly make a 2drop list with this. Not sure how workable it would be tho. There is also an artifact where you can teleport once per battle.

 

There's nothing stopping you from doing this twice either.  First with Morathi, and then next turn, do it again with a Slaughter queen on CoB.  They'll both eviscerate whatever they're in combat with.  It's probably more effective on the SCoCoB anyway since her major weakness is the 6" rapidly diminishing move characteristic.

[DantePQ]

@Richelieu @Keldaur yes it's cool gimmick and could be awesome when done right but imagine if someone unbids that Mirror Dance it's almost auto-lose against top-tier lists and Death, Tzeentch can do this quite easily, but there are many other bad scenarios (Murderhost, Nurgle). Sure there are other options to do this but in the mentioned scenario it's quite risky. What's more there is a problem with such armies as DoK will have hard time to go first against 1-3 drop lists. (and taking Bloodwrack Shirne, Medusa, Morathi and another Medusa in one list is quite overkill). But it's only theory and I'd rather be pessimistic and then find out to be wrong then gloss over obvious flaws  (so please don't be mad if I sound too negative about certain mechanics but I love to find flaws and weaknesses in army lists  )

[Richelieu]

6 minutes ago, DantePQ said:

@Richelieu @Keldaur yes it's cool gimmick and could be awesome when done right but imagine if someone unbids that Mirror Dance it's almost auto-lose against top-tier lists and Death, Tzeentch can do this quite easily, but there are many other bad scenarios (Murderhost, Nurgle). Sure there are other options to do this but in the mentioned scenario it's quite risky. What's more there is a problem with such armies as DoK will have hard time to go first against 1-3 drop lists. (and taking Bloodwrack Shirne, Medusa, Morathi and another Medusa in one list is quite overkill). But it's only theory and I'd rather be pessimistic and then find out to be wrong then gloss over obvious flaws  (so please don't be mad if I sound too negative about certain mechanics but I love to find flaws and weaknesses in army lists  )

Of course, it's a given that any strategy is going to hinge upon execution.  It's also not something I intend to use since I am still in the Hagg Nar camp as it provides additional resilience against alpha strikes, and not just the shooting variety.   I also am not terribly concerned with a Herald of Tzeentch swapping into my back line.  If they want to use a bunch of destiny dice, expose themselves to a double turn and sacrifice a model to kill one or two of mine, I'm ok with that.  It's also, while not something to count on, not too unlikely that you'll unbind one of the spells (probably not the first one).  Then factor in the 33% mortal wounds reduction from Hagg Nar, and I would consider it a poor play on the part of the Tzeentch player.

[DantePQ]

Yeah it depends. 

If you play HaggNar that would be horrible play by Changehost player but against Kheliborn ShadowHammer it could be brilliant when you kill your opponents 5W general and majority or maybe all of Stormcast + huge number of witches with Gaunt  as it cripples him greatly even for a cost of Herald -  DoK are toested from there on. 

Execution is one thing as it depends on you but when your swap gimmick falls flat against Changehost or Death or any other army with unbid mechanics it's just bad gimmick. 

[Blitzel]

I would like your opinion on a "the Kraith" list.

All the daughter Queen can also fit in the cauldron guard battalion, so the all get really speady.  Also the death hag on foot can fight 3 times, and 4 tunes if the tempel ability goes off! This combined with the venom of nagendra. You are looking at possible 4 attacks with d6 mortal wounds and some more deathsword attacks. This cheap het might murder a A-hole heavy armoured unit by herself! Also the gaat Morathi might fight an extra round for free is very awesome imho.

The 30 witch elves will sprint forward en go do blender stuff supporter by the Queen on foot and death hag. Kinerai will drop somewhere and threaten a flank. Hopefully getting mindrazor on one of them in the early stages. The 2x 10 buckler witches are there to support the cauldrpn and get a 4+ save in total! I could throw in mystica shield for a whopping 3+/6++.

So fairly direct, but also fast.

[Richelieu]

1 hour ago, DantePQ said:

Execution is one thing as it depends on you but when your swap gimmick falls flat against Changehost or Death or any other army with unbid mechanics it's just bad gimmick. 

Your positioning would have to be miserable for them to ever be in range to unbind this.  The teleported hero will be 9"+ away from the nearest enemy and the caster can be another 24" away from her, so outside of a Slann who has global unbinds or any of the global unbind artifacts it will be very difficult to unbind.

[DantePQ]

It's not so obvious when your opponent knows what he's doing also premise was that Medusa that will be redeployed was the one casting Mirror Dance. Also Changehost has 27" unbid range and that would greatly limit where you want Morathi placed.

[Keldaur]

I am going the draichi way and not planning in playing morathi (atleast yet). I was merely pointing out that if you try hard you can find work arounds, but obviously only time, practice and results will prove if it is viable.

[BURF1]

9 hours ago, DantePQ said:

Yep but it isn't that easy first you need a

Medusa with re-rolls of 1 and+1 to cast item

 And you're only 50% to cast Mindrazor, also I don't remeber if General can use this ability on herself (but that would be only minor setback) but it's spund tactic  but also remeber that with Medusa near enemies they might have unbid in range so it won't work in majority of cases against Tzeentch and/or LoN or any army with ability to unbid with extra bonuses. Of course here positioning comes in place as you can postion himself away from possible unbid but that on the other hand will limit where Morathi can be placed. 

Eh, Mirror dance is a 4+, you could get away without the item and Mindrazor is amazing on Morathi but not mandatory like it is on witch aelves or SoS. Getting Witchbrew+exploding 6s+whatever other buff prayers you choose would be a bigger deal. The general can use it on themselves. 

You're almost never going to run into unbinding issues. You'd have to be playing with your eyes closed or against High oracle Morathi/Arkhan. Remember Shadow queen morathi gets her full 14" move and has a much larger base than the medusa, you're never going to be forced to risk an unbind because even if you want to go after the mage in question you can drop outside of the 18" unbind range and move. In fact, you never have to deal with the unbind at all, you can just TP a hag queen  and do the swap like that. It doesn't really stop you from doing much tbh, especially if your opponent doesn't see it coming. It's not an instant win strat, but it's damn scary for an opponent to have to deal with out of nowhere.